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GalacticSketch

More Detailed Trading Hub Rules

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Maybe it's just me, but I've had a lot of problems with my trades being reported for things I didn't even know I was doing wrong. I think that the guidelines or rules for the trading hub should be updated or rules should be made much more clear to prevent people from having the same issue I have had. 

 

The rules, if I remember correctly, state that the trade must apply to many people, not just one specific person and must not include off-site links.

 However, I have had trades reported and taken down for things I didn't know would fall under these categories. This has happened three times for different reasons and I am now banned forever from making public trades. This is honestly very frustrating because not everyone uses the forums and you're more likely to get offers in the public hub.

I have asked in Tiny Little Questions before about what is allowed after I had a post reported, and apparently IOUs are not permitted and neither is mentioning to contact someone via the forums. This is never specified in the trading hub guidelines. How are people meant to draw this conclusion themselves, especially when I've seen many other people post about the same thing?

The same goes for the most recent issue I've had where I mistakenly auto-abandoned an egg and put up a reward in exchange for its return. This trade was reported and I was banned about four days after the first post. I have seen many people post the same thing and at this point, I almost feel targeted? I don't even understand how this would be against the rules as everyone would have equal opportunity to get the egg I lost and offer it, just as they would to breed or catch something and offer it on another trade.

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Posted (edited)

You cant put anything that isnt what you want. Only exception is stating what your offering. And it does say "wants" only. 

 

Asking for a abandoned egg is still targeting one person. Because only one person can pick it up. Next time change the names of the parents.

 

If you see other trades asking for these things odds are they have also been reported and simply not removed yet.

Edited by DragonLady86
Fixed word

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Posted (edited)

IOUs haven't been allowed to be offered in the open for years. Here it is in the trading forum rules https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/113928-trading-subforum-rules-and-guidelines/ 

 

Quote

No IOU topics or posts are allowed. IOU's are not an option of the game, IOU's are agreements made between members. As we (DC) are not responsible for any IOU's made, allowing a topic/posts gives members the impression we condone the practice, which we don't. Therefore, these topics/posts will not be allowed. Members accept IOU's at their own risk, we at DC are not responsible for any agreements made between members. No IOUs in threads includes both asking for or offering to take them.

 

 

The IOU rule has applied to the game for years, because we cannot help you if it goes awry. You can't offer or ask for them in either trade hub or forum. The hub is for offering what you currently have for what someone else currently has - if they choose to go to the forum and offer you something else, that is outside our purview and into "your own risk" territory. I've noticed that some people put this information in their signature here; or they name some dragons, put them in a group and sort them, and provide the group/#### in the hub.  

 

Asking for specific eggs is a form of targeting: only one person can have that egg at any time, so your offer asking for a single egg is not in fact available to everyone. Your best shot is to rename the parents (like "please return to" and "[your name] on the forum") and hope they contact you. 

 

eta: not really disagreeing, just noting that the no-iou rule has been around for awhile and appeared to be widely known (seems to not be tho?), but the targeting one seems clear even with current wording. hm.

Edited by Infinis

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Agree that more direct trade rules should be a thing; people have argued that obtuse ones are good because they prevent would-be rulebreakers from trying to find loopholes, but I think it's better communication to assume that most rule readers are reading it in good faith and simply want to know what they won't be punished for, plus it's easier for either ESL readers or translation programs to work with. Something simple like: Do not mention other usernames or other players' dragons, only offer what you currently own, etc etc. I'm honestly not sure if requesting outside contact is okay with a "want", or if it's completely forbidden, as I've read conflicting info even here on forums. So that's something else that needs clarification.

 

I don't expect game players to be familiar with forum-only rules and some form of it should be mentioned on the hub if the hub is modded by forum rules.

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Posted (edited)

I think a big issue is the rules are in such a weird place. You don't see them unless you click 2 way, and its easy for your eyes to just skim over it because its just a tiny paragraph. I agree the iou side of things isn't intuitive at all, like without knowing its banned on forums you'd never know from the information given that you can't do ious. The message is just 'must be applicable to many people' many people COULD contact you for iou stuff. You can argue that everyone on forums knows ious are banned but, that's just not true, judging from the official discord. The rules should at the very least be on the trading hub as well.

 

Could definitely be worded clearer as well. 

Edited by Tinibree

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Cue me going "The trading hub has rules written down on the site?"

 

I still haven't been able to find them... and I've been playing DC for a while. If punishments are as severe as the OP says they are, I can understand this being an issue for newer players especially.

Unless "Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person." is the rules...? There really should be a link to more specific rules there, of all places... I seriously cannot find any more specific rules no matter how much digging I do.

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2 hours ago, Paintra said:

Cue me going "The trading hub has rules written down on the site?"

 

I still haven't been able to find them... and I've been playing DC for a while. If punishments are as severe as the OP says they are, I can understand this being an issue for newer players especially.

Unless "Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person." is the rules...? There really should be a link to more specific rules there, of all places... I seriously cannot find any more specific rules no matter how much digging I do.

 

That's because that's it - those are the rules, and they've always just been very vague to me. I wasn't sure if I was supposed to connect rules between trading on the forums and the hub, and even then, it's never really specified anywhere that I can't put up a reward for an egg in return. I renamed the parents, but I wanted to make sure that the person would find it worth it to return the lost dragon by offering something in exchange. I didn't realize it would get me banned from making public trades.

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6 hours ago, DragonLady86 said:

You cant put anything that isnt what you want. Only exception is stating what your offering. And it does say "wants" only. 

 

Asking for a abandoned egg is still targeting one person. Because only one person can pick it up. Next time change the names of the parents.

 

If you see other trades asking for these things odds are they have also been reported and simply not removed yet.

 

This. All of this. 

 

As for IOUs, I personally would assume it's *not* allowed simply because it's not *possible* on-site. In order to carry out an IOU there would have to be some type of after-the-fact communication by users, which can't actually be done on-site. I'd assume things that can't be accomplished through the Hub are not okay to put in that box. I really don't see that as confusing or unclear, seriously. You literally can't do it on the site alone, through the Hub alone, so it's not allowed to be in your 'want' box. 

 

I've accepted that maybe expanded hub rules would be helpful simply because it keeps coming up over and over on the forums, but I also think common sense just needs to be used. Asking for an abandoned egg back *is* against the rules that are currently stated, since it doesn't apply to 'many people', only one single person will have that egg. 

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8 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

As for IOUs, I personally would assume it's *not* allowed simply because it's not *possible* on-site. In order to carry out an IOU there would have to be some type of after-the-fact communication by users, which can't actually be done on-site. I'd assume things that can't be accomplished through the Hub are not okay to put in that box. I really don't see that as confusing or unclear, seriously. You literally can't do it on the site alone, through the Hub alone, so it's not allowed to be in your 'want' box. 

 

I've accepted that maybe expanded hub rules would be helpful simply because it keeps coming up over and over on the forums, but I also think common sense just needs to be used. Asking for an abandoned egg back *is* against the rules that are currently stated, since it doesn't apply to 'many people', only one single person will have that egg. 

 

It is definitely confusing and unclear. Maybe not to you, but not every user is going to have the same experience, especially with such vague wording.

If a significant amount of people are getting banned for asking for IOUs, then that needs to be addressed. If a significant amount of people are asking for IOU's in the trade hub, then obviously other people are going to see that, and think it's fine, because there is not a single place that states that "Asking for IOU trades is not allowed." As for the AP stuff, a simple "Asking for a specific dragon by code is not allowed." It would really be that simple!

 

I understand this all seems like common sense to you, but really, as they are now, the rules are extremely barebones and apparently full of specific rules that are just unspoken. It's reasonable to extrapolate that IOU trades or asking for an egg by code is not allowed- but it's also just as reasonable for people to not realize it's not okay. And really, I don't understand why anyone would not want the rules to be elaborated upon? If they're not adding new ones, and just making the current ones clear, then what's the issue? People wouldn't talk about Neglected Dragons on here for years because the rules weren't clear. Clearly there's something going on with rules being muddy and confusing.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Paintra said:

Cue me going "The trading hub has rules written down on the site?"

 

I still haven't been able to find them... and I've been playing DC for a while. If punishments are as severe as the OP says they are, I can understand this being an issue for newer players especially.

Unless "Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person." is the rules...? There really should be a link to more specific rules there, of all places... I seriously cannot find any more specific rules no matter how much digging I do.

 

The message on the hub isn't exactly all-embracing, and for a non-forum player, is not very clear:

 

Message

Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.

Warning: Use of trading messages for any purpose except those stated above may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades. Off-site links are forbidden.

 

And while yes, IOUs have never been allowed on forum, it doesn't actually say you can't do that on the hub. If you think it through it isn't actually possible without directing people to the forum, but if you aren't on forum, you don't actually know that they aren't allowed.  And it would be good if it specifically said no links, and no "contact me on forum" or "see my scroll". AND that it is OK to name (but not link to) a group.

 

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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I guess I just think more logically than some? Really, 'seeing someone else do it so it must be okay' is not a good guideline/assumption in *any* case, regardless of what rules are or aren't posted. That's just not a good thing to go by. And yeah, I do see these things as common sense... If a player has played for any real amount of time, they surely know that direct communication isn't possible on-site. Why, then, would they think IOUs could even be possible on-site? Maybe a simple 'if it can't be completed in-hub it shouldn't be in the box' would help? 

And why is an 'asking for specific dragon's code' needed when that is already covered in the already-stated rules? 

 

I understand people think differently, not everyone sees things the same, etc, but even with more fleshed-out rules there is simply no possible way to make sure everyone understands everything. I mean, 'don't ask for a specific abandoned egg' *should* be understood by the current 'apply to many people not just a specific person'. But apparently it's not. I believe this was mentioned before by a mod or maybe even TJ himself, what exactly is expected for 'more detailed' rules? How much detail is enough? How many different ways do the same basic things need to be said? Because it's very clear just by this thread that even the rules currently posted aren't understandable to some people. 

 

(Also, if rules are expanded there will *have* to be that whole 'included but not limited to' phrasing, otherwise users *will* assume that *anything* not specifically stated is fine....)

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Just now, HeatherMarie said:

And why is an 'asking for specific dragon's code' needed when that is already covered in the already-stated rules? 

 

I'm about to go to sleep, but my general idea of what the thought process is is that people think that if an egg is in the AP, it's any one person can grab it and so it therefore applies to many people? If that makes sense. It doesn't work in practice, I know, but that's why the clarification is important. 

 

As for what's expected, really how we should be responding is by asking "What is broken the most? Could it be possible those people are misunderstanding the rules? Are people asking for this thing to be clarified?" Obviously, in this thread's case it's focusing on the IOU and AP part, but it could theoretically apply to something else.

 

..Or something. I'm tired XD

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I think clearly written rules are always sensible. Implicit conventions may work for many people, but it is always easiest if you have something written black on white (or in any other contrasting colour) to fall back to.

 

Ceterum censeo I would still love to have two fields in the Trading Hub, one for "Wants" and one for "Haves" with both being separately searchable as that would be much more user friendly than the current set-up.

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2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

The message on the hub isn't exactly all-embracing, and for a non-forum player, is not very clear:

 

Message

Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.

Warning: Use of trading messages for any purpose except those stated above may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades. Off-site links are forbidden.

 

And while yes, IOUs have never been allowed on forum, it doesn't actually say you can't do that on the hub. If you think it through it isn't actually possible without directing people to the forum, but if you aren't on forum, you don't actually know that they aren't allowed.  And it would be good if it specifically said no links, and no "contact me on forum" or "see my scroll". AND that it is OK to name (but not link to) a group.

 

 

Why does it say even "message" instead of "rules"?

And yes, I would like the rules fleshed out too. I see so many people post things in the hub that they are not allowed to (IOUs, telling me to PM them on the forums etc). But don't they know about the "rules" or are they doing it on purpose and despite of the "rules"?

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Posted (edited)

I think reasoning of the OP, according to making trade offer for mistakenly abbandoned egg, makes sense. Anyone could go to AP and look for this egg and possibly get it, not only one specific person. Rules mention "specific person" not "specific egg", to be fair. That mention of specific person makes me think of something like calling someone out by their scroll name (or clearly alluding to it) in the trade description, rather than a person who stumbled upon a very specific egg I happen to want by complete chance. In the first case, I can see it's not ok, but in the second one, I can't.

What's more, this type of offer really didn't do any harm to the game community nor to any specific player, and yet caused OP to get permabanned from the game feature. It seems that any of those three times OP broke the hub rules no one was harmed, and yet punishment was as harsh as I would expect it to be in case of clear offense directed towards another player. That just doesn't seem right.

Edited by Lyncerta

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Posted (edited)

Full support!

I was recently banned for 5 DAYS for same-time trades when I stated the code for a lost egg, despite no rule stating you're not allowed.

Some vague rule in COMPLETLY OTHER place states that all interactions must be voluntarelly...wich means completely nothing for someone young/not speaking English, and I still don't see how stating a code is an interaction, but you can't argue with a mod....

Edit: left out an important part. My trades stated 'or offer' as I was acceptin other offers from anyone, making them available for many.

 

Oh, maybe also include a list of forbidden words? English is my 4th language and I recently found some words to be slurs even though I know them rooted in inocent terms. AKA I got no ideia I'm 'swearing' sometimes... take the excavation tool for example XD you know which if you play minecraft

 

I should also mention that I didn't know what an IOU was and initially thought is a breed? Can it please state I Owe You?

Edited by camelia2

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7 hours ago, Astreya said:

Ceterum censeo I would still love to have two fields in the Trading Hub, one for "Wants" and one for "Haves" with both being separately searchable as that would be much more user friendly than the current set-up.

 

OT but dig the Latin ! (y)

 

25 minutes ago, camelia2 said:

Oh, maybe also include a list of forbidden words? English is my 4th language and I recently found some words to be slurs even though I know them rooted in inocent terms. AKA I got no ideia I'm 'swearing' sometimes... take the excavation tool for example XD you know which if you play minecraft

 

I should also mention that I didn't know what an IOU was and initially thought is a breed? Can it please state I Owe You?

 

Sorry, but I really think IOU is generic enough not to be needed.  (I've no idea what you mean about the excavation tool so I googled, and the only thing I can find that MIGHT fit is a passing reference which can be used as a slur about a racial group ? is that it ?) I think the mods are pretty good about helping out if you swore accidentally, though.

 

5 hours ago, Zimtie said:

 

Why does it say even "message" instead of "rules"?

 

No idea actually. Good point.

 

5 hours ago, Zimtie said:

And yes, I would like the rules fleshed out too. I see so many people post things in the hub that they are not allowed to (IOUs, telling me to PM them on the forums etc). But don't they know about the "rules" or are they doing it on purpose and despite of the "rules"?

 

I'd say yes. In other words - they do it for both reasons. Not knowing, sure - but also in the hope that they will get away with it before it's spotted.

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I would really like it if the rules were clarified. As it stands, I had no idea that IOUs were explicitly not allowed until I read the forum rules. Also, while I know that asking someone to contact you on the forum is considered off site, I'm not sure if directing someone to a specific group on your scroll is allowed (and what if that group encourages contacting on the forum..?). Also, I feel like many people wouldn't understand that the forum is "off-site." It took me a while to realize that the forum and cave are classified as different websites even though they are linked.

 

Personally, I have never been banned or warned for any of my public trades, but I'm not confident I won't accidentally break a rule considering they aren't clearly outlined. A list of rules shouldn't require you to think of all the "well, technically..." details; that will lead to people getting confused or feeling like they were unfairly punished. If you can't ask for a specific egg by code, that should be clearly stated instead of requiring people to think that technically asking for a specific code is asking for something only one person could have.

 

I third the request for the "message" to be renamed "rules," too. It's easy to skim over if you think it is just flavor text.

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I am told that saying "a mate for a dragon in group 59287" is OK, but a direct link is not.

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7 hours ago, Zimtie said:

Why does it say even "message" instead of "rules"?

It says "Message" because it's the headline for the message input box. The rules are written just above the input box, in the same section. (It's a bit more obvious that it's supposed to be a section header on e.g. the Portal 2 skin, where "MESSAGE" is in a bold font, all caps, and fully left-aligned rather than with a paragraph indent.)

 

Note: Not making a statement whether or not it ought to stay that way, just explaining the status quo.

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Where are the RULES above the input box ?

 

Whole box:

 

image.png.a59cd03856ecdb86f004deaa198d6290.png

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Posted (edited)

As someone with studies in linguistics I'm definitely in favour of more explicit rules. I've never had problems with the trading hub myself but reading this thread makes me think I'll want to be more careful in the future, just to be on the safe side, because apparently I can't know what exactly is allowed and what isn't. I don't think the focus of this conversation should be on the mistakes made by the original poster or anyone else but on the fact that there are several people who find the rules confusing, which I honestly don't find very surprising if the rules don't even declare themselves to be rules.

 

It is a beautiful thing that the site is full of lore related descriptions and stories. The purpose of rules and other directional and instructional texts, however, is different. They need to be clear and informative, not imaginative or elegant. In my opinion, if even a single person feels they're too vague to be followed and is puzzled enough to raise an issue about it, then there really is something wrong not with that player but with the rules. The need to repeatedly report trades which aren't insulting, spamming, etc. is as well a clear indicator that players need more and better guidance.

 

Of course there's always someone who misunderstands or doesn't bother to read – or intentionally tries to get away with whatever they're doing – and of course it isn't possible to list every single forbidden action in such a short text. While it can be expected that people share some common sense, long experience or reading the forums or having a certain way of processing written text shouldn't instead be mandatory to understand the rules.

Edited by Varislapsi

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Posted (edited)

I'm always in favor of rules being on-site and not relying on someone to be on the forum or Discord to know them. What we have right now aren't rules, they're a misleading newbie trap that many, many users have complained aren't explained well enough ON-SITE and have yet not been fixed.

 

All the current "rules" get across are such:

- No linking offsite (nothing mentioned about referencing offsite)

- Describe what you have and/or are looking for

- SHOULD be applicable to many people-- this isn't even phrased as a rule!

 

Someone who's only on the site and not on Discord or the forum could go onto the hub, say "I bit an egg with the code ABCDE and it repulsed, if you catch it in the AP email me at this address and I'll breed you a Gold next week" and while that message breaks at least three rules there is absolutely nothing onsite stating as such, that I can see.

Edited by Keileon

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Posted (edited)

If anyone who was here for the Hub's implementation remembers, there is a legit full list of Hub rules made by TJ...buried beneath well over a year of forum topics where few can locate it. It was designated forum-only intentionally. A majority did not care that it wasn't on-site nor that non-forum players would never find it or understand the reason for any bans they got hit with. The tiny paragraph blurb was added after the "we don't need rules listed" backlash when the bans were (wait for it) always permanent because temporary bans did not exist. The reasons for why that big list was never placed on-site belong to TJ only.

 

I'd love to see that list on-site because it was thorough, answered the questions that back then even the mods were completely wrong about (anyone remember when mods said the blank wants trades were the banned guys? lol), and actually did its job....except that it is forum-only. That is wrong. Anything that important being forum-only is wrong and should be fixed. This is why I demand from any big changes on-site that people ask for that the details of it go on-site, because of the Hub rules fiasco.

 

For those curious for this rule list, unless TJ finally destroyed it and all evidence regarding it (i'm not plumbing through that mess to look for it), check out the Trade Hub Feedback thread.

EDIT: 

It still exists, wow. Trawling to actually find the list because, surprise surprise, it is no longer pinned. 

Edited by animatedrose
actually went looking for it

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I forgot there weren't temp bans at first.

 

On the topic of auto-ed eggs, while I understood that it counts as targeting a specific person, there is an argument that 20 people could see the trade and try to catch the egg, so I get why others would think it was fine. Its more gray than it seems at first glance.

 

The idea for not allowing asking for specific coded eggs is okay, in practice for stopping the above, however, people ask for codes they collect (like Tini personally) which would get caught up in that rule, and I don't they should be banned because that's mostly luck and hunting the cave. (If that does count against the rules I guess I just got lucky the few time's I've thrown that in my wants section, and if it isn't against the rules, I totally get why people then think ap-ed eggs are fine to ask for because it seems no different, both are asking for codes after all.)

 

Frankly the rules are vague enough I list options in my wants, just in case I'm breaking a rule without knowing it, and that's really not a worry I should have. It's extremely user unfriendly. We've had the hub for long enough this is really something that should've been hammered out by now. Didn't we have a case of someone getting banned because of a mistranslation? Which might not have happened if the rules were clearer.

 

Also I second the whole not getting forums count as off-site links at first. Lots of newbies won't get that either.

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