Change Classification of Red-Finned Tidal Dragon

[Niya]

 

Edit: earthgirl (Red-Finned Tidal creator) has commented in agreement. 

 

 

Right now in the Encyclopedia, Red-Finned Tidals are listed as Lindwyrms. I believe they are misclassified and should actually be labelled as Amphipteres. Typically, lindwyrms are dragons that only have arms/non-wing forelimbs, often along with a regular pair of wings.

 

These are tidals ("lindwyrms"). Notice the lack of arms.

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Here are a few other dragons also called lindwyrms:

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Two-headed Lindwyrm

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Script Dragon

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Blusang Lindywrm

 

 

These are the zombies lindwyrms make. Does this really look like a Tidal?

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Zombie Lindwyrm

 

 

 

These are some examples of amphipteres, which Tidals are more in line with.

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Two-Finned Bluna

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Aeria Gloris

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Skywing

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Zombie Amphiptere

 

 

Tidals clearly do not have arms. Even though they are fully aquatic, I would like to note that Blunas are aquatic as well, use their wings to swim, and are still called amphipteres.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Niyaka

[Paintra]

Honestly, I'm surprised they aren't classified as sea serpents. But they definitely don't have arms, you're right. The only issue I can see with this change is it affecting zombie dragons.

[olympe]

While Tidals are undoubtedly aquatic, they're anything but serpentine, so Amphiptere it is. Or should be. Support!

[Fuzzbucket]

From their creator:

 

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I originally intended for them to be Leviathans, but they came out too fragile-looking to be the case, so they are just water lindwurms.

 

[Shokomon]

Basically what @Fuzzbucket said.

 

I assume that the arms are extremely webbed.

[Niya]

Despite what the creator says, look at the zombies both dragon type makes. The zombie lindwyrm has two pairs of limbs, the tidal has only one. Whether the arms are “extremely webbed” or not, by this advanced stage of webbing they clearly function (and strongly physically resemble) wings or flippers. 

[Keileon]

The body type/structure is basically identical to Skywings, so normally I'd support the reclassification.

 

However, this is an instance where the creator of the breed has spoken up. There is no "despite" to that. Tidals aren't the only dragons that don't match their zombie; imo, the creator's word is final, unless they or TJ later say otherwise.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Keileon

[Niya]

I’d definitely say “despite” because they literally aren’t lindwyrms. The creator could’ve called them wyverns but that wouldn’t make it accurate. 

 

Edit: I sent a PM to @earthgirl but it seems like she hasn’t been active on the forums for a little bit. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Niyaka

[HeatherMarie]

I really do think the creator's word trumps what a dragon 'should' be in terms of body type. There is no actual, *real* definition of 'lindwyrm' in the real world, the classifications given to DC dragons is based on nothing more than *perceived* attributes. We 'know' Lindwyrms (and others) to have certain body types because that is generally what's agreed on, but there is no reason to insist that it be set in stone. If the person/people who *made* the dragon specifically calls it a certain type, that can't be discounted just because it doesn't look the same as 'most' other lindwyrms. 

 

Just my opinion, of course. This has actually been brought up before.

[Sextonator]

Eh people have gotten confused over dragon classification before, so it’s possible they didn’t actually mean lindwyrm. Heck, before people were used to it, drakes and drakes got mixed up, to where we’d have wingless westerns, and winged drakes.

 

In this case, I feel like this would be an acceptable change to make, as this could actually lead to some confusion on what is what, as it’s technically not a lindwyrm, but because of the labeling, anyone unfamiliar with the classification could think a lindwyrm can be armless.

[Shadowdrake]

I wouldn't mind fixing it, if only simply because we don't have a set page explaining what the *generally consistent* terms of DC body shapes are and any inconsistencies make things worse (though I'll be sad to have extra amphitheres and less lindwyrm zombies lol).

[earthgirl]

I'm fine with the name change. They are more amphitere than lindwurm.

I made the sprites and the concept way before the zombie project took place and things weren't set in stone when it came to dragon types.

 

Or at least I wasn't paying enough attention to what is what.

[Fuzzbucket]

6 hours ago, Keileon said:

The body type/structure is basically identical to Skywings, so normally I'd support the reclassification.

 

However, this is an instance where the creator of the breed has spoken up. There is no "despite" to that. Tidals aren't the only dragons that don't match their zombie; imo, the creator's word is final, unless they or TJ later say otherwise.

 

3 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I really do think the creator's word trumps what a dragon 'should' be in terms of body type. There is no actual, *real* definition of 'lindwyrm' in the real world, the classifications given to DC dragons is based on nothing more than *perceived* attributes. We 'know' Lindwyrms (and others) to have certain body types because that is generally what's agreed on, but there is no reason to insist that it be set in stone. If the person/people who *made* the dragon specifically calls it a certain type, that can't be discounted just because it doesn't look the same as 'most' other lindwyrms. 

 

Just my opinion, of course. This has actually been brought up before.

 

I very much agree with both these. And earthgirl is indeed no longer active - but that doesn't make it OK to override what she said.

[Shadowdrake]

7 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

I very much agree with both these. And earthgirl is indeed no longer active - but that doesn't make it OK to override what she said.

 

But... She just commented, right above you, that she would be fine changing it.

 

54 minutes ago, earthgirl said:

I'm fine with the name change. They are more amphitere than lindwurm.

I made the sprites and the concept way before the zombie project took place and things weren't set in stone when it came to dragon types.

 

Or at least I wasn't paying enough attention to what is what.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Shadowdrake said:

 

But... She just commented, right above you, that she would be fine changing it.

 

 

 

Fair enough - I had failed to refresh before posting !

[Ruby Eyes]

10 hours ago, Niyaka said:

look at the zombies both dragon type makes

You should see how confused all the non-western Zyus are when they suddenly sprout limbs upon zombification.

Clearly, zombie form does not necessarily allow telling what the original creature was

[olympe]

9 hours ago, Keileon said:

However, this is an instance where the creator of the breed has spoken up. There is no "despite" to that. Tidals aren't the only dragons that don't match their zombie; imo, the creator's word is final, unless they or TJ later say otherwise.

Well, then Radiant Angels need to be re-classified as Easterns because, if my memory isn't very faulty, they were intended as winged Easterns. I mean, take off the wings, and you *do* have classical Eastern dragons. So, obviously, there's a double standard.

 

That being said, we do have the creator's support for this by now.

 

5 hours ago, Sextonator said:

In this case, I feel like this would be an acceptable change to make, as this could actually lead to some confusion on what is what, as it’s technically not a lindwyrm, but because of the labeling, anyone unfamiliar with the classification could think a lindwyrm can be armless.

Not to mention hind limbs. Because the Tidal does have them, too. They may be small, but they're definitely there.

[HeatherMarie]

So the spriter has weighed in and agreed with the suggestion... Now my concern is, will already-made red finned tidal zombies be affected? It couldn't be just a *word* change since those classifications affect which zombies are made. Will everyone suddenly have surprise-amphitere zombies and less lindwyrm zombies? Would it be too confusing to have old zombies keep whatever classification they had at the time of zombie-making and just have the change affect future zombies? 

[Tini]

I would vote that zombies stay as they are just because most were killed probably knowing what zombie they turn into. There's no need to mess up zombie sets. 

[olympe]

2 minutes ago, Tinibree said:

I would vote that zombies stay as they are just because most were killed probably knowing what zombie they turn into. There's no need to mess up zombie sets. 

The question is whether that is possible. Because zombies internally keep their original breed (somewhere in the on-site data), so changing the breed's classification might just change the zombie sprites, too.

[Shadowdrake]

I'm p sure there's been similar changes in the past, such as crimson flare going from wyvern to Western, and zombies changed with it. So I expect we'd end up with extra amphs and less linds.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Shadowdrake

[Keileon]

12 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, then Radiant Angels need to be re-classified as Easterns because, if my memory isn't very faulty, they were intended as winged Easterns. I mean, take off the wings, and you *do* have classical Eastern dragons. So, obviously, there's a double standard.

Issue is I don't disagree-- they should be!

[Shadowdrake]

13 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, then Radiant Angels need to be re-classified as Easterns because, if my memory isn't very faulty, they were intended as winged Easterns. I mean, take off the wings, and you *do* have classical Eastern dragons. So, obviously, there's a double standard.

The double standard is that we don't have "winged wyrms" or "winged lindwyrms" or "wingless westerns", we have amphiptheres and lindwyrms and wingless dragons.

[Infinis]

The RA is classed as a western in spite of what we called it/wanted it to be because western is an objective classification (must have at least four legs and at least one pair of wings). RAs fit western; they possess limbs and wings. The length of body is irrelevant. 

 

I can want it to be classified as winged eastern all I want, but for the site's classification purposes for western and eastern, it's a western. I've become okay with that over the years, but privately they will always be precious winged easterns.

 

The tidal is kind of the same way...it's an amphiptere, whether anyone wants it to be or not. It does not meet the criteria to be classed as a lindwyrm, or as anything other than an amphiptere (except maybe sea serpent but idk about that one).

Edited July 8, 2020 by Infinis

[olympe]

10 hours ago, Infinis said:

The RA is classed as a western in spite of what we called it/wanted it to be because western is an objective classification (must have at least four legs and at least one pair of wings). RAs fit western; they possess limbs and wings. The length of body is irrelevant.

I've been thinking a lot about these things recently. Maybe - just maybe - we need a new classification - maybe Northern and Southern (to match Western and Eastern).

Southern would pretty much be "winged Easterns" - long, slender bodies, at least 1 set of wings, 1 set of "arms"/front legs and 1 set of hind legs. This would not only include RAs, but also a number of others. (Features from now on should include at least one more typical "Eastern" feature - mane, horns/antlers or whiskers.) The list below may be incomplete, or include breeds that don't fit perfectly.

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Northern could then be an official name for the "ridgewing type" (including Ridgewing, Heartseeker, Carina and maybe Dorsals). Because their wings are build so very, very differently. They may have one main wing arm, but need at least 4 sets of struts along their spine to support the wing. Seawyrms would be a combined type of Northern/Lindwyrm, unfortunately.

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Another pet peeve of mine is the classification of aquatic breeds (with body modifications to suit that lifestyle) that don't follow the Sea Serpent / Leviathan pattern (serpentine body...) Just look at the next pics and tell me what they are - and why they are in different groups:

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Just in case you wondered and didn't want to look it up: Aqualis = Eastern (fair enough), Sapo = Sea Serpent (with limbs that aren't fins/flippers, but meh, they look more Eastern to me), Shallow Water = Sea Serpent (WTF?), Water Walker and Waterhorse = Wingless (what is that on their backs, I wonder), Xol and Aranoa = Wingless again (fair enough, but those Xol feet are so very different), Tercorn = Western (you read that right). Which results in the following zombies:

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  => 

 /   =>  (Totally makes sense, dosn't it?)

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 =>  (Could almost be twins...)

 

If we look at the similarities, we find the following:

• Legs are definitely there, no flippers. Fingers/Toes are usually webbed to suit their aquatic lifestyle (exception: Waterhorse, maybe Sapo too?). I think a reduction to only front limbs would also work for this.
• Wings are not the norm, but can be there in a very reduced capacity. They're not flight-worth, though.
• A bit of a dorsal ridge is a rather common feature, unless there are wings covering that function (exception: Sapo - although one could argue that the mane is a fluttery dorsal ridge...)

I don't know what to call this group. Amphibian? Natare? Something else entirely?

 

 Last (but definitely least, as it's not a group yet), maybe re-classify Terrae as "Dragas" (as intended by their creator), even if it's not a breeding group of its own. This could (probably) allow them to have different zombie sprites for males and females. Males are regular Winged (Westerns), females regular Wingless or they possess only vestigial/stumpy wings. This may or may not work for other body types: Lindwyrm, Eastern (with and without wings), Amphiptere/Wyrm and even Wyvern/Bipedal (which we don't have yet, but is possible - just look up moas)

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Anyway, that's my 0.02 $ on dragon classification on DC. /rant

Edited July 8, 2020 by olympe