Raising Limits on CB Holidays

[BrazenChase]

9 minutes ago, wobster109 said:

Let's clear something up. Throwing Halloween eggs in the AP does not help players who are struggling. What kind of player will be successful in the AP? Someone with time to sit there and refresh for hours, waiting for the rare new egg to show up. Someone who is fast enough to beat out the hundreds of other players on the AP. Someone with leisure time and speed on their side. 

 

Think of what kind of person can't catch them on the day of. Someone who is busy. Someone with kids who take up all their attention. Someone without reliable internet. These obstacles will still be there for them 2 days later, when the eggs show up in the AP. It will most likely not be someone's first new egg. If someone is unable to catch one from the biomes, where players are split and the drops are 100% Halloweens, their chances in the AP will only be worse. Throwing eggs to the AP redistributes them to people who already have a lot.

 

 

Is it mean-spirited or is it true? Halloween eggs are not infinite. They are not like money, where you make money, and I make money separately, and they don't affect each other.

nah it's mean spirited. you're trying pretty hard to erase all of the good other people try and do in the DC community by aggressively clinging to your negative ideology and it's really not fair to foist that on everyone else who is at least making an effort to spread some good vibes during the holiday season.

 

throwing eggs in the AP helps the people who weren't home, or in bed that night. does it help literally everyone? no. does it help more people than if people were to do nothing at all? absolutely. so, it's still worth doing. 

 

just because you don't want to join in on those efforts, and that positivity, doesn't mean it isn't there, and that people aren't trying. it just means you're not willing to engage in it. that's on you, not the community.

 

Also, the whole philosophy of taking eggs from other people? That's the game, dude! Ever tried to dive for a CB Silver or Gold? Most times, you miss. I don't hate whoever caught it instead of me, because that's the game I'm playing. Like I said, more in general means more to go around, more to breed, more to give.

[tjekan]

6 hours ago, wobster109 said:

How is it helping lineages to get CB eggs and give them out?
Remember that gifting is only fun for people doing the giving, who get to feel kind and benevolent and generous. It may also be fine for askers who are extroverted or confident. But for some people who are shy or unconfident, it is torture to ask.

 

A rising tide lifts all boats, though. If I have two hollies and they breed an average of three eggs apiece, I get two eggs and the AP gets four. But if I have four hollies and they breed an average of three eggs apiece, I get four eggs and the AP gets eight. That's a big increase in the number of eggs in the AP that people who are too shy to ask for eggs can find for themselves. The increase in breeding will help people with their lineages regardless of how introverted they are.

 

Additionally, many people who feel too awkward directly asking for a gift are more comfortable with the comparative neutrality of using the Trade Hub, where there would also be more eggs available if the limits weren't preventing it.

 

And as for the new CB's, I truly don't think there is any danger of anyone being unable to catch those even if the limit was removed completely--because the drop is three times longer than Halloween's. So it'd still be three times easier to catch an egg at Christmas than at Halloween no matter what.

 

Overall, I agree with you that the best way to help make sure everyone has a chance to catch limited edition eggs at holidays is to increase the volume of those eggs being dropped. That is what would keep the holidays relaxed and fun for everyone regardless of their play style or personality type, and I fully support that.

But I don't think artificial limits help that goal at all--in fact I think they actually impede it in a few ways. Improving egg limits to at least four and improving how many eggs drop per hour would both be valuable to the whole userbase.

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, tjekan said:

 

And as for the new CB's, I truly don't think there is any danger of anyone being unable to catch those even if the limit was removed completely--because the drop is three times longer than Halloween's. So it'd still be three times easier to catch an egg at Christmas than at Halloween no matter what.
 

Actually no. Because you can pick up eight (platinum) eggs, and only two at other holidays.

 

But also while I'm ok with going up to four CBs, don't forget that not everyone is after 2gens.

 

@wobster109

Edited December 17, 2019 by Fuzzbucket

[Sazandora]

And seriously, suddenly making Valentines and Christmas dragons unlimited is way too big of a change. It has to be done slowly, because there'll be so much demand for holiday eggs that the cave will be emptied out in less than a second unless it's continually flooding with eggs.

[VixenDra]

25 minutes ago, Sazandora said:

unless it's continually flooding with eggs.

 

which it SHOULD do anyways:<

and if not "because not", the spawn rate should get multiplied by at least 10. This game has a way too large of an userbase for the current spawn rates by now

[Sazandora]

@VixenDra Agreed. At this rate, if holidays were suddenly bumped up to no limits whatsoever, there'd be so much competition for a vanishingly tiny number of eggs that the biome would empty out in a second. Bam, going from full to empty faster than you can blink. And there'd be so much drama and frustration all around... oh lord. I do not want that.

[tjekan]

6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Actually no. Because you can pick up eight (platinum) eggs, and only two at other holidays.

 

 

That doesn't change my point, though (unless I'm missing something.)

You can pick up 8 eggs at Halloween. There is only one day worth of egg drops to go around.

 

There are three days worth of egg drops to go around at winter holidays. Even if the limits were changed so that everyone could pick up 8 eggs then too, it would still be 3 times easier to find the new CB eggs than it is at Halloween.

 

6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

But also while I'm ok with going up to four CBs, don't forget that not everyone is after 2gens.

 

 

There are basically only three categories of eggs people are after: 1) CB's, 2) bred dragons for particular lineages (2g's, checkers, etc.,) and 3) any lineage, they just want the sprites.

#3 is already super easy for anyone to get. #2 would be greatly improved by increasing the limit, as people will have more ability to breed, gift, and trade them. #1 could theoretically be negatively affected by changing the limit, but I don't believe it would be because of the baseline example we have at Halloween. The Christmas drop lasts three times as long as Halloween--if Halloween had had three times as many eggs as it did, no one would have had a problem.

I think it's a good idea to err on the side of caution and raise the limit from 2 to 4 rather than eliminating it completely, but I don't even think eliminating it completely could possibly cause the kind of problems some users are anticipating. By the nature of the drops, it would still be MUCH easier to catch CB eggs at Christmas than at Halloween. They wouldn't all disappear in a flash. No one should be left empty-handed or having to beg for them unless the drop length is reduced (please don't reduce the drop length!)

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by tjekan

[olympe]

10 hours ago, BrazenChase said:

nah it's mean spirited. you're trying pretty hard to erase all of the good other people try and do in the DC community by aggressively clinging to your negative ideology and it's really not fair to foist that on everyone else who is at least making an effort to spread some good vibes during the holiday season.

 

throwing eggs in the AP helps the people who weren't home, or in bed that night. does it help literally everyone? no. does it help more people than if people were to do nothing at all? absolutely. so, it's still worth doing. 

 

just because you don't want to join in on those efforts, and that positivity, doesn't mean it isn't there, and that people aren't trying. it just means you're not willing to engage in it. that's on you, not the community.

 

Also, the whole philosophy of taking eggs from other people? That's the game, dude! Ever tried to dive for a CB Silver or Gold? Most times, you miss. I don't hate whoever caught it instead of me, because that's the game I'm playing. Like I said, more in general means more to go around, more to breed, more to give.

That's not entirely true.

 

Throwing eggs to the AP helps anyone get another load who is hunting the AP at the right time. And it's usually those people who have lots of time, quick reflexes and/or a good internet connection who get those AP eggs. In other words: The most successful hunters. Those who already got their fill from the cave. It doesn't matter whether these people who benefit from AP eggs weren't home for the actual release, or in bed the whole 24 hours. Because, most likely, it's people who already are successful hunters who will gain even more. Simple logic, really. This doesn't mean it's not worth punting CB holiday eggs to the AP, but it very much shows that it's not a measure to help those poor people who didn't get any. At least not on Halloween, because those eggs are unlimited.

 

Personally, I don't believe in joining in this folly to sacrifice scroll space for at least 5 hours at a time in order to help out people who - in most cases - don't need any help in the first place. It doesn't have anything to do with not engaging in any kind of "positivity", but it certainly means that I do not feel better for doing this.

 

And while I agree that taking eggs other people were trying for is very much the game, this very mechanic gives the whole holiday gifting business a bit of a foul taste IMHO.

 

 

***

 

All of that being said, I still think that higher limits and even unlimited can be done if we preserve the improved chances for players below the limit. And there are several ways to go about it.

1. Limit of 2 growing things of a breed. It's not that much of a limit, as a player could ffreeze/raise up to 6 of a breed in one season if they so choose, but at least players will have to spread out their hunting quite a bit over the week.
2. Limited hunting capabilities, but unlimited eggs in the market. Yes, everyone can buy more, at prices TJ deems acceptable - whether they're set at 100, 500 or 1000. Prices could even increase with the number of dragons you already have of that breed, maybe with a cap involved. (First Holly egg costs 100, second costs 200, third costs 300 and so on. Once again, the actual numbers are merely examples.) On the plus side, you cannot trade away your market eggs, so it's a given you only buy what you actually want for yourself.
3. Dividing the hunting season into "up to limit of 2 only" during the breeding week and "unlimited" (=turning off the limits) during the new holiday release. That's one whole week where people can try to get to their limit, while there's still a chance for everyone to hunt for extra holidays.
4. Make CB eggs from the AP unlimited, and punt eggs sitting in the holiday biome after 1 minute or even half a minute to keep the biome moving. This still gives players below the limits a good chance to get their eggs first and even improves their chances of catching what they need because the holiday biome keeps moving at a faster rate, but also allows all players to go above their limits. This probably means that CBs of rarer breeds (Hollies...) won't ever make it into the AP, but since this means that someone who hasn't reached their limit yet will be guaranteed to grab it, this is actually a good thing.

Just a little disclaimer: I say all this as someone who has reached their limit on all CB holidays the year the holiday biome came out. I also own "enough" CBs of all Halloween breeds. Giving precedence to players who haven't reached their limit yet does not give me any kind of advantage.

[Sazandora]

13 minutes ago, olympe said:

1. Limit of 2 growing things of a breed. It's not that much of a limit, as a player could ffreeze/raise up to 6 of a breed in one season if they so choose, but at least players will have to spread out their hunting quite a bit over the week.

This is the one I support the most. It still bumps up the limits but not in an overly dramatic fashion, and gives everyone a fair chance at grabbing more CB holidays that were previously limited, without having to resort to begging for freebies. The winter holidays can get real busy for some people, and I believe this is the best option for everyone.

[olympe]

Well, you don't have to beg for freebies if you can buy them for yourself. Or splitting the hunting times or hunting grounds into limited and unlimited. Whichever works.

[BrazenChase]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

That's not entirely true.

 

Throwing eggs to the AP helps anyone get another load who is hunting the AP at the right time. And it's usually those people who have lots of time, quick reflexes and/or a good internet connection who get those AP eggs. In other words: The most successful hunters. Those who already got their fill from the cave. It doesn't matter whether these people who benefit from AP eggs weren't home for the actual release, or in bed the whole 24 hours. Because, most likely, it's people who already are successful hunters who will gain even more. Simple logic, really. This doesn't mean it's not worth punting CB holiday eggs to the AP, but it very much shows that it's not a measure to help those poor people who didn't get any. At least not on Halloween, because those eggs are unlimited.

 

Personally, I don't believe in joining in this folly to sacrifice scroll space for at least 5 hours at a time in order to help out people who - in most cases - don't need any help in the first place. It doesn't have anything to do with not engaging in any kind of "positivity", but it certainly means that I do not feel better for doing this.

 

And while I agree that taking eggs other people were trying for is very much the game, this very mechanic gives the whole holiday gifting business a bit of a foul taste IMHO.

 

 

***

The people who are trying to create that second wave aren't getting anything out of it, themselves. I can't go and re-catch the eggs I throw to the AP for myself. They're there for people who might need a second chance. Knowing it might be helping someone is enough for me. It's a really pessimistic view to say that it doesn't help anyone. Lots of people go to Halloween parties or engage in other activities that keep them out for the night. Some people might double dip, sure, but there are others who genuinely need and appreciate that chance. I've seen plenty of people get their pairs from the AP who otherwise wouldn't. Say whatever you want, but the intention behind it is good, and the volume of those eggs that do go through the AP says a lot about our community as everyone who is abandoning like that gets nothing from it for themselves. I think given the chance to help, a lot of people take it. That's largely been my experience on DC and part of why I love this site so much. More CBs to go around gives people a chance to be more generous, and do all the great things I see them do on Halloween. 

 

A lot of these arguments are ignoring that scroll/egg space is very much still a thing. Removing the 2 cap doesn't magically remove my 8 egg slots, 24 hatchling slots. So even if everyone is as voracious and "selfish" as people are claiming, they will still get locked. 

 

As others have said in the thread before me, whenever anyone proposes any kind of change around here, people tend to get very reactionary. The sky isn't going to fall. Halloween is proof of this. Plenty of old Halloween CBs sit in the biomes between drops after the first rush day. Tons of them, even. The hub moves really well with people trading back and forth (which is a neutral option for folks who don't like forums and other social platforms). The event flows. The cave doesn't get blocked or stagnant, you don't run out of dragons to breed almost immediately, and people have things to trade back and forth. Xmas and Vday lack that same flow and engagement. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by BrazenChase

[tjekan]

20 minutes ago, BrazenChase said:

Halloween is proof of this. Plenty of old Halloween CBs sit in the biomes between drops after the first rush day. Tons of them, even. The hub moves really well with people trading back and forth (which is a neutral option for folks who don't like forums and other social platforms). The event flows. The cave doesn't get blocked or stagnant, you don't run out of dragons to breed almost immediately, and people have things to trade back and forth. Xmas and Vday lack that same flow and engagement. 

 

I agree with this. Halloween is almost a perfect event IMHO. If the volume of CB eggs being dropped was increased (spawning more eggs every drop, increasing the new egg drop to 2 days, or both) it would be perfect.

 

I do agree with Wobster that generosity doesn't always have effects quite as good as intended. If a person with a very fast connection grabbed all the good eggs and gifted them all, it would be well intended, but would freeze out people who couldn't ask for the gifts and would rob people of the satisfaction of catching the eggs themselves. I get that. But the solution isnt to try and stop the gifters from doing that--they are, after all, being nice, and some users don't have time to catch eggs for themselves at the holidays no matter what and would super appreciate it. The solution is to increase the number of eggs falling. Then NO one is left out-- neither the people who want to catch for themselves rather than ask for gifts NOR those who arent available and wouldn't get any without the kindness of gifters.

Edited December 17, 2019 by tjekan

[olympe]

1 hour ago, tjekan said:

I agree with this. Halloween is almost a perfect event IMHO. If the volume of CB eggs being dropped was increased (spawning more eggs every drop, increasing the new egg drop to 2 days, or both) it would be perfect.

Tell that to all the players who weren't lucky enough to get any new CBs.

 

1 hour ago, tjekan said:

The solution is to increase the number of eggs falling. Then NO one is left out-- neither the people who want to catch for themselves rather than ask for gifts NOR those who arent available and wouldn't get any without the kindness of gifters.

I can only second that. More eggs are better.

[tjekan]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

Tell that to all the players who weren't lucky enough to get any new CBs.

 

That's why I said it WOULD be perfect if the volume of new CB eggs were increased (either by adding more eggs to each drop or adding a second day to the drop.)

 

It was perfect right up until the new CB drop on the 31st, which wasn't sufficiently large for players with limited time to hunt. The Christmas drop, which is 3 times longer, won't have that problem. It would be fantastic if we could combine the energetic fun of pre-Halloween week with the more relaxed drop of new Holiday dragons. I do NOT want anyone to be left out, but I think we can reduce limits and thus improve event fun without risking that happening.

Edited December 17, 2019 by tjekan

[olympe]

^Point. I must have skipped that part somehow.

[osean]

19 hours ago, wobster109 said:

Let's clear something up. Throwing Halloween eggs in the AP does not help players who are struggling. What kind of player will be successful in the AP? Someone with time to sit there and refresh for hours, waiting for the rare new egg to show up. Someone who is fast enough to beat out the hundreds of other players on the AP. Someone with leisure time and speed on their side. 

 

Think of what kind of person can't catch them on the day of. Someone who is busy. Someone with kids who take up all their attention. Someone without reliable internet. These obstacles will still be there for them 2 days later, when the eggs show up in the AP. It will most likely not be someone's first new egg. If someone is unable to catch one from the biomes, where players are split and the drops are 100% Halloweens, their chances in the AP will only be worse. Throwing eggs to the AP redistributes them to people who already have a lot.

 

 

Is it mean-spirited or is it true? Halloween eggs are not infinite. They are not like money, where you make money, and I make money separately, and they don't affect each other.

 

Instead they are limited cookies on a plate. Each of you is grabbing armfuls of cookies. Maybe there are other people around the cookie plate, some reaching for their first cookie. You push in front of them, snatch the cookie out from under their fingertips. You're faster, so tough for them. You may be giving them away, but it's a fact that there's less left for the people around the plate. It's a fact that when you click an egg, someone else can't have it. It doesn't sound nice, but it's true. If no one clicked eggs for gifting or throwing in the AP, there would be more for the young, the old, the slow, the arthritic, the working, the shy, the harried parents, and the non-forum-goers.

 

I'm not saying that gifting is "only to glorify". It's valid to say, "So-and-so is a special person to me, and I want to make sure they get an egg (or 8)." But, in making that choice, you are saying "This person is more important to me than someone else. Someone else is going to be without an egg, and I'm ok with that." I'm not saying that's bad, for example, I'm ok with my sister and me getting concert tickets, even if they sell out and someone else can't have one. But I have to own that choice. Look it in the eye and say, "I'm ok with someone else being disappointed." It's not accurate to tell myself that it doesn't happen.

 

In some situations (concert tickets), I'm personally ok with that. In other situations (holiday gifts), I'm not ok with that.

 

 

It seems to me that what he has done is set a 2 per breed limit.

 

 

This seems a pretty harsh requirement. I don't think it's right that someone has to try so hard for a holiday event. People have work and kids and school. I think anyone who tries 10-15 minutes should get something.

 

 

I wish I could believe that! But a month ago, I watched people walk away from Halloween with nothing. So far as I know, nothing was done to fix it for them. Maybe that's what Halloween on DC is supposed to be like. Halloween is intentionally different. It seems to me that TJ has implemented winter holidays and valentines fairly, by having the CB limit.

That’s a really sad way to look at things. How do you know that dropping Halloween eggs don’t help anyone?  They sure helped me when I found them in the ap. I am one of those people on a slow internet.  Just because they didn’t help you doesn’t mean that they didn’t help anyone else. 

 

Personally, I would be okay if limits went away and I am one of those people with a slow connection. Even with that slower connection, I can still get mostly what I need. On the rare times I don’t there are plenty of helpful people here who do gift to those who can’t catch for whatever reason.  

[tjekan]

5 minutes ago, osean said:

On the rare times I don’t there are plenty of helpful people here who do gift to those who can’t catch for whatever reason.  

 

I think the point though, is that not everyone can take advantage of that. Some people have too much anxiety or shyness to ask for a gift, some don't speak English or aren't on the forum. I dont think raising the limits will HURT those people, for reasons I've already stated, but probably will not help them either. In addition to raising the limits, I'd also like to see the number of eggs per drop go up, which will help everyone of any play style.

[Fiona]

Ensuring that the hourly drops last longer than say... 15 seconds, would be helpful to most people.

[Keileon]

Holiday season is getting close enough to warrant a bump of this thread, I think. I know the concept doesn't really apply to Halloween, but doing it now gives TJ more time to consider before XMas rolls around.

 

To update my stance: still in favor of raising the limit to 4, also prefer the idea of "two CBs per year" but just bumping it to 4 would work for me.

[blockEdragon]

This might sound odd but what if they made Chirstmas/Vallentine holidays super plentiful instead of limiting them? I mean they aren't a IRL resource that needs to be rationed due to a real lack of supply, the extra limits are only necessary because the current way the game is programmed makes them necessary. It's all a construct that can be fundamentally changed with relative ease. Instead of just getting rid of the limits let's make them obsolete, both slow catchers and hardcore collectors can get what they want without ruining the other's holiday.

Edited August 28, 2020 by blockEdragon

[KrazyKarp]

There's little point in holiday limits anymore in general. The only thing you'd need to do is make it so the holiday biome never runs out of eggs and you're all set to make them unlimited because it fixes everyone's concerns of not being able to get any CBs. And even put them in the market if you want. It'd be easy to make unlimited work.

[Cal-ifornia]

I'd support a limit raise to 4. I don't have very many CB holidays (I think I have 2 or 3) because I'm not super concerned with them. But there are a few lineages that I'd like to try at some point in the future which require 4 CB holidays. It'd be nice to be able to do those without asking others for an egg.

 

I don't think making them unlimited suddenly is a good idea, but I do support the "slow rollout" idea. Increasing the CB limit by 2 per year would work for a few years, and we could revisit making them unlimited at a future date.

[ShorahNagi]

48 minutes ago, Serotina said:

but I do support the "slow rollout" idea. Increasing the CB limit by 2 per year would work for a few years, and we could revisit making them unlimited at a future date.

I like this idea - allow players to pick up new CBs every year (could really help with clearing 'common' holiday blockers (like Snow Angels) but still with a limit in place to help spread the wealth. [It would only be that years release that would be restricted]

 

As for raising the limit to 4...I can get behind that for multiple reasons:

 

1. No need to wait a whole year if you do full sprite collecting (frozen s1, frozen s2, 1 or 2 adults)

 

2. Able to gift someone a pair (or gift 2 people a single egg) while still keeping a pair for yourself

 

3. Able to quicker work on lineages that need CBs

 

[KrazyKarp]

A slow rollout would be fine, e.g. +2 this year, +4 next year, then unlimited the third year, but in my opinion there's not any justification for keeping limits forever.

 

However, having the new Christmas breed restricted the first year does make sense, as people are busier around then. But Valentine's Day is barely a holiday, I don't see why we'd need to have any limits at all on new Valentine's breeds. Of course, if the biomes just never ran out of eggs during the new holiday breed release, we wouldn't need to worry about limits.

Edited September 4, 2020 by KrazyKarp

[Cal-ifornia]

2 hours ago, KrazyKarp said:

+2 this year, +4 next year, then unlimited the third

 

2 hours ago, KrazyKarp said:

having the new Christmas breed restricted the first year does make sense

 

I'm not sure how hard this would be to code, but would it be possible for each new release to automatically roll out as 2 the first year, 4 the second, and then have limits removed the third?

 

I'm not 100% sold on making Holidays unlimited quite that quickly, but I'm just spitballing that idea because most of you seem to want a faster timeframe than I do.