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High Lord November

Balloon Dragon BSA: Float

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While I didn't support this earlier as it seemed overpowered it's necessary now as this seems like it will become a trend.

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2 hours ago, UnicornMaiden said:

I really dislike Earthquake as a BSA. I have never used it. What's the point of it? It gives you a chance of hatching eggs faster, but you can accomplish that with Incubate without the risk of killing them, and Incubate only targets the eggs you want.

It allows you to hatch eggs sooner than incubate, it affects everything and you can still use incubate even if it doesn't work. It would be too good for us to have if there was no drawbacks attached to it.

Edited by Lost_Unicorn

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I agree that Earthquake is meant to have heavy drawbacks because otherwise it would be too good. I used to be uncertain about this suggestion before because of that. But I've changed my mind. Not only do I love Balloon Dragons and seeing them be appreciated would be neat, but I think this would be very useful yet also fair/keep the danger aspect of Earthquake if it had a scroll-wide limit or limit to only one egg at a time being able to "float". That way, if there is a future new release using Earthquake as a mechanic, everyone could protect at least one of their NR eggs but still try for the new alts during the release. I think that'd be nice.

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4 hours ago, steeve said:

 

Some thoughts:

- love the idea of Balloons getting a BSA! they definitely seem like a forgotten oldie breed that could use some spotlight. they're so fun. the concept would go so well with them.

 

 

As someone who has been playing for sooo long, and doesn't have the greatest memory, sometimes I honestly do 'forget' about an older breed that I haven't collected in a long time. It's happened with Balloons, I see one somewhere and I'm like 'oh! yes, those guys are cool!'. It would be so great for Balloons to have this BSA (in general I think it's a great idea to give BSAs to older breeds that maybe aren't being focused on much). 

 

Also the Kill slot issue, yeah. The fact that EQ-deaths count in the limit for a totally different action makes it even less desirable to use. My goodness there are so many reasons I support this BSA now.

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Back when BSAs were added, Float was a common suggestion that people had on IRC to help users mitigate the downsides of Earthquake and give value to Balloons. This is a feature that has been requested over and over again throughout the years, but seemingly gets tossed into the shredder or put on read. It feels like feedback is not taken seriously when users can suggest the same thing over and over again for a decade and just be ignored. This raises the question of "why give feedback if we are screaming into the void?" The artists put their heart and soul into the sprites that they create. Of course people will be enamored with passion projects and want to collect things with restrictions.

 

Earthquake isn't forgotten, Earthquake is a risk that users don't want. If there's to be a downside, then helping mitigate the downside should require resources. 

 

We have multiple cases of BSAs being combined to optimise results and curb RNG. Precog is meant to be used with Influence in order to save how many Pinks someone might need for their breeding project. Incubate and Influence are often used together for breeding projects. Sometimes, you see Fertility used to help ensure that breeding projects are successful. Ward and Incubate can be used together to help mitigate the effects of sickness. Incubate can be used with Earthquake to ensure a higher success point is reached sooner. 

 

Float would just be another interaction. It does not remove the risk of Earthquake since the eggs you want to Earthquake will still be at risk. All users are asking for is a way to pick and choose what eggs can be Earthquaked. 

 

Again, this is a suggestion that users have asked for since BSAs were announced and users speculated the rates on IRC. This thread was created in 2019, but I know for a fact this suggestion is much, much older than that.

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4 hours ago, Charu said:

Back when BSAs were added, Float was a common suggestion that people had on IRC to help users mitigate the downsides of Earthquake and give value to Balloons. This is a feature that has been requested over and over again throughout the years, but seemingly gets tossed into the shredder or put on read. It feels like feedback is not taken seriously when users can suggest the same thing over and over again for a decade and just be ignored. This raises the question of "why give feedback if we are screaming into the void?" The artists put their heart and soul into the sprites that they create. Of course people will be enamored with passion projects and want to collect things with restrictions.

 

You have admirably summed up something that has been nagging at me for a while. There are many popular threads in this forum which have been sitting around for years. There are suggestions which seem to be very well-liked and have near-universal support. And yet, they just sit there. Some ideas are suggested again and again, while others accumulate pages and pages of people rehashing the same reasons why they would like to see an idea implemented. But still there is very little acknowledgement of suggestions.

 

If a suggestion is out of the question it would be nice to simply be told so and to get a reason why. If a suggestion is under consideration or needs some adjustments that feedback would be much appreciated. This forum does have a definite feeling of "screaming into the void" as you say.

 

I do appreciate that we have a place to voice our concerns and suggestions, and of course I appreciate the mods who oversee that discussion, but it would be so nice to get a little more responsiveness from those who are in a position to act on what is discussed here.

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1 hour ago, UnicornMaiden said:

If a suggestion is out of the question it would be nice to simply be told so and to get a reason why. If a suggestion is under consideration or needs some adjustments that feedback would be much appreciated. This forum does have a definite feeling of "screaming into the void" as you say.

 

there does seem to always be a lingering communication issue with this site in general. has been for a long time. even small, easy, quality of life changes too. but im not going to derail about that here.

 

i support the float bsa suggestion now more than ever. earthquake is still risky, and it always will be. users know that there will always be a risk of killing their eggs with earthquake, but as said before, this is just a way to remove ones you maybe dont want to risk from the equation. i see no reason to disagree with this suggestion, ESPECIALLY now that there are two breeds that may require you to use it. (green cantors, and with this new one you will eat through your kill slots that are already very limited anyway (i make zombies! im all out half the time!) so earthquake is the only way to go over and attempt for the most current breed if you literally cant use the kill action to attempt to force them.)

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Agreed about the 'screaming into the void' feeling. Especially with this issue, with many users speaking to the frustrations with EQ and ideas to help balance the risk a bit (I too remember the long-ago threads with this very idea), but instead of any acknowledgement of the very real issues and frustrations.... We just get another variant reliant on the exact BSA so many of us have issue with.  I want to believe that some of the Suggestion threads here have been seen and silently acknowledged and maybe even plan to be implemented, the Market gives me hope in that area since that was a thread for *years* before it suddenly became a real thing, but yeah it would be nice to have a little acknowledgement. (And of course I don't expect TJ to look at every suggestion and tell us if he will implement it or not, but with things that have been talked about for literal years it would be nice to at least know if it's even a possibility at all.)

 

My mind is still hard-wired to see this as a BSA that needs restrictions because it *is* basically a BSA to lessen the risks of another BSA, but I feel like it doesn't need to be complicated at all. One egg floated at a time, and/or scroll-wide cooldown, and/or can only Float a specific egg once, there seems to be plenty of ways this could be implemented that would *help* users play and collect those EQ-variants while still allowing an amount of risk for EQ.

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I don't know why people keep talking about drawbacks when EQ already has enough drawbacks. 

 

You can hatch eggs sooner but risk killing them, the risk of killing should be more than enough of a drawback. But that isn't the ONLY drawback. You also have:

 

- Ugly dead eggshells on scroll for 2 weeks

- Risk of nothing happening (BSA is pointless)

- Green on cooldown for 2 WEEKS

- Eating up kill slots that could be used for zombies

- EQ is successful... but the hatchling runs away! 

 

With 6 drawbacks and only 1 Pro of using EQ, I think it's more than fair that we could get float as a counter balance. 

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Well, the talk about adding drawbacks/restrictions to Float is because, like EQ, it's a pretty powerful BSA. And it would be the only BSA ever implemented to directly counteract the risks of another BSA, which itself is pretty serious. Yes, EQ comes with lots of drawbacks/risks, and that's intentional, so a BSA to lessen those risks is a pretty big deal. Restrictions like only one egg Floated at once or a scroll-wide cooldown would make Float helpful for the EQ-issues while not making it totally overpowered and keeping the basic idea of EQ-risks.

 

I'm at a point now where I don't care how it's implemented I just think it should be implemented. Sooner rather than later, preferably. It would be awesome if Float came with no restrictions/drawbacks at all, but based on years of feedback and Suggestion threads in general it's pretty much a given that any super-powerful BSA has to have some sort of trade-offs or restrictions. 

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A reminder that the topic here is the float BSA, not TJ's use of the forum or the overall state of suggestions. 

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Apologies for any disrailing of the topic.

 

I wholeheartedly support the Float BSA. Earthquake is the only BSA that has a blanket effect on all eggs. Every other BSA only affects the eggs we choose to use them on. This is a major deterrent to using it, and I think it makes sense to have a way to protect eggs we don't want to be affected.

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Maybe a bit more 'Stun for eggs' in scope? An egg's affected for a full day instead of just an hour, and during that time can't be affected any anything - no actions, no BSAs, and no views? That's effectively fogging without fogging, which would be useful in its own right and not just a loophole for EQ, and without the ability to unfog, which could be considered a trade-off?

 

(Apologies if I missed or misread something shooting this down upthread. The heat is not good for reading comprehension.)

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Support!

Since now we have 2 whole alts dedicated to Earthquake, it feels needed,
As many users like myself never use EQ. 
Its just an unnecessary risk, that we have very little control over.

First time I ever used it was for the cantos, and i lost 5 of the 8.
It was crushing.
A way to controll the risk in anyway would be grately appreciated.

Really hope were not shouting into the void here.

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On 8/26/2021 at 6:32 AM, schmupti said:

Maybe a bit more 'Stun for eggs' in scope? An egg's affected for a full day instead of just an hour, and during that time can't be affected any anything - no actions, no BSAs, and no views? That's effectively fogging without fogging, which would be useful in its own right and not just a loophole for EQ, and without the ability to unfog, which could be considered a trade-off?

 

(Apologies if I missed or misread something shooting this down upthread. The heat is not good for reading comprehension.)

 

I don't know how other people might feel about the no actions thing, but personally I kinda like this idea too. It offers a different restriction (you can't decide to get rid of any of those eggs while float is active if I understood you correctly) so perhaps it could be applied on multiple eggs at a time, provided one has enough Balloons of course. I'd be down to use it on 2-3 eggs that I intend to keep anyway if it saves me the trouble of finding someone to hold them. 

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You understood me correctly - make it basically untouchable by user, dragon or would-be viewbomber for a day.

 

I'm in agreement that it's probably not a good idea to make it too easy/painless to dodge the consequences of Earthquake, if only because I vaguely remember a no-wishing-for-more-wishes kind of rule about not suggesting BSAs that sidestep other BSAs - but that was before we needed to use a BSA with such heavy risks to simply obtain two separate breeds.

 

I think if the suggested Float BSA is slightly more inconvenient, and/or has some benefit in its own right not connected to EQ (like eggs being visible to users but not racking up views), that might balance out the concerns folks have expressed and make it a bit more saleable to the head cheese, maybe?

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Yeah, I feel like it being a kind of super-fog/stun variant would make it work well--if you had an egg close to hatching, for example, you'd need to balance it taking up the slot until the float ran out vs. risking it in the eq vs. waiting it out.

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I support that idea too!

 

I do not really care about all the specific extras (how long, what can or cannot be done to the egg during that time etc), but the general idea of saving eggs from an earthquake is great. And additional to that I like the vision of Balloon Dragons holding these eggs while floating 🥰

 

 

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I like the "egg cannot be interacted with or given views" idea, actually! We do still need a way to "lock" down eggs and hatchlings from being accidentally abandoned, killed, etc. so it could do double duty there.

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1 hour ago, Shadowdrake said:

I like the "egg cannot be interacted with or given views" idea, actually! We do still need a way to "lock" down eggs and hatchlings from being accidentally abandoned, killed, etc. so it could do double duty there.

Fog already does all of that except protecting from EQ. No interaction I assume is supposed to be the downside of Float. OP says Float should work for one hour, but in that case the downside is meaningless. Why have those effects then? The duration should be.. at least one day, at most three days I guess, if you want the downside to be meaningful.

How about just making fog also protect from EQ, instead of adding Float?

Edited by Lost_Unicorn

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2 minutes ago, Lost_Unicorn said:

How about just making fog also protect from EQ, instead of adding Float?

Some people are using fog to keep their eggs from hatching before they can use EQ -- for instance, until another egg on their scroll that they don't want to risk has time to hatch. If they had to unfog them then before using EQ, the egg would most likely hatch before it could be EQ'd.

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4 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

for instance, until another egg on their scroll that they don't want to risk has time to hatch.

There would be no risk for that egg anymore, because it can be fogged.

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31 minutes ago, Lost_Unicorn said:

Fog already does all of that except protecting from EQ.

Yeah, but fog sucks because you've got to unfog or double check everything if you don't remember exactly which eggs are which, or what cracking stage they are, or what that fogged blob in the action log that you influenced is. Every time you have to refog is another potential accidental abandon.

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