BSA suggestion for Vremya Drakes

[olympe]

Let's start with the adult description, emphasis by me:

Spoiler

Vremya Drakes are known for their impeccable abilities to alter time as an instinctual response to external stimuli. Whenever they feel threatened or startled, Vremya Drakes are capable of locking their target into a temporary time loop, allowing the drakes to escape unscathed. This attachment to time magic also supplies them insight to potential outcomes a few moments ahead to give them an advantage in dangerous situations. Many instances of deja vu have been attributed to Vremya Drakes and their time loops. Once heralded as the most intelligent drake breed, they are actually not much smarter than the average drake, but their unique method of distracting enemies has falsely given them a reputation of cunning and acumen.

Which leads us to the following BSA suggestion

 

Time Loop: Undoes all BSAs performed on an egg or hatchling. Won't undo "Bite". Won't undo BSAs on a hatchling that were performed at the egg stage. Might add 1 hour (or rather 24?) to "time left". In other words, it does what "bouncing" an egg to another scroll will achieve, just without involving another player.

Restrictions: The BSAs are still used up. Target egg/hatchling needs to be alive and still growing. (Not applicable to frozen hatchlings.)

Cooldown: 2 weeks?

Edited May 29, 2019 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

Won't undo freeze, I hope ? That would be a step too far. But it would be nice not to have to bounce to change an influence.

[olympe]

Well, freezing is not a BSA, so no?

ETA: Edited the OP to reflect that.  

Edited May 29, 2019 by olympe

[Ruby Eyes]

That leaves Incubate, Influence, Ward and Stun, yes? Though I think Ward shouldn't be undoable. Undoing Teleport or Precognition wouldn't make much sense either

 

[olympe]

Well, Ward is the question. It would be a way to allow us to reapply Ward after it runs out, but costs us another BSA plus the 2nd Ward. I don't know if that's high enough of a price, though. Considering eggs grow much less susceptible to death by sickness by the time you can actually reapply it, though, it just might be.

 

That being said,Time Loop  maybe shouldn't add any time unless it takes off Incubate... oh well, I guess I forgot that thing.

 

I must admit I did think of Precognition - and Time Loop could actually erase the Precognition result from your action log - which might be wise, considering that this could lead to mistakes (egg got influenced female, then precogged female for some reason. Then timelooped, which reverts it back to its origiinal male sex).

Edited May 29, 2019 by olympe

[hazeh]

I'm in favor for this, but I think a failure rate of some kind should be implemented, even if it is a low chance. Vremya don't have total control over this, so I imagine the target of the time loop would not always necessarily be the object you want-- such as, you get stuck in a time loop instead  

[Velvet_paw]

Haha yes I like the idea of the time loop removing the same kinds of thing as teleport currently does. I think you are right about precognition logs as well to avoid confusion but don't know if that would be difficult to implement. Love the idea of alternative outcomes in failure messages lol

Edited May 30, 2019 by Velvet_paw

[olympe]

11 hours ago, hazeh said:

I'm in favor for this, but I think a failure rate of some kind should be implemented, even if it is a low chance. Vremya don't have total control over this, so I imagine the target of the time loop would not always necessarily be the object you want-- such as, you get stuck in a time loop instead  

Well, it does say that Vremyas have "impeccable abilities to alter time". To me, that implies impeccable control, too.

[Fiona]

They're drakes. I don't think I'd want my dog shifting time loops around me, and drakes are on an intelligence level with dogs. Not that smart.

[JavaTigress]

29 minutes ago, Fiona said:

They're drakes. I don't think I'd want my dog shifting time loops around me, and drakes are on an intelligence level with dogs. Not that smart.

True, scary, but... if I may, the descrip strongly SUGGESTS that that is EXACTLY what we have going on there. A drake with some pretty remarkable powers.

[Shokomon]

Quote

I'm down for Time Loop on the Vremyas, so long as some sort of fail rate is included (considering they

don't have actual control over what they do with their time loops, I imagine you won't always be successful in getting the Vremya to focus on the object). Or it fails because the Vremya pitched it forward in time instead of backward.

Quoting this from the precious thread beacuse it mentions things that should be noted. {Emphasis by me}

 

Though that would be hefty cost for eggs or hatchlings to lose time if the BSA fails...

 

1 hour ago, JavaTigress said:

True, scary, but... if I may, the descrip strongly SUGGESTS that that is EXACTLY what we have going on there. A drake with some pretty remarkable powers.

Well... You're not wrong... The encyclopedia agrees that we have a dog with time powers here: 

Hatchling Behavior

• Young Vremya Drakes have little control over their abilities.
• Still appear to have a linear trajectory in their own maturation, suggesting that the magic cannot affect the drake’s growth itself.
• Small time skips occur more frequently when a drake is excited; when at rest, the hatchlings can be quite lazy, opting to soak in small pools of water or drape across low-hanging tree branches to sleep.

Adult Behavior

• Once a Vremya Drake has matured, its control over time increases. However, this really only means that it becomes an instinctual response rather than random occurrence.

I feel like I read more about it somewhere, but I can't find where...

Edited May 30, 2019 by Shokomon

[JavaTigress]

16 minutes ago, Shokomon said:

Quoting this from the precious thread beacuse it mentions things that should be noted. {Emphasis by me}

 

Though that would be hefty cost for eggs or hatchlings to lose time if the BSA fails...

 

Well... You're not wrong... The encyclopedia agrees that we have a dog with time powers here: 

 

  Hide contents

 

Hatchling Behavior

• Young Vremya Drakes have little control over their abilities.
• Still appear to have a linear trajectory in their own maturation, suggesting that the magic cannot affect the drake’s growth itself.
• Small time skips occur more frequently when a drake is excited; when at rest, the hatchlings can be quite lazy, opting to soak in small pools of water or drape across low-hanging tree branches to sleep.

Adult Behavior

• Once a Vremya Drake has matured, its control over time increases. However, this really only means that it becomes an instinctual response rather than random occurrence.

 

I feel like I read more about it somewhere, but I can't find where...

 

AND I would add that people have trained DOGS to do some pretty remarkable things, too... I don't see why a drake couldn't be trained with the proper reinforcement.

[Keileon]

My only qualm is Drake intelligence. There's a difference between training a dog to sit and training a dog to send something into a time loop lasting a specific amount of time that would work to undo the BSA.

 

I'd still support it, but I really feel like we need the relevant people to confirm that a Vremya would feasibly get the specifics right.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Keileon

[JavaTigress]

4 minutes ago, Keileon said:

My only qualm is Drake intelligence. There's a difference between training a dog to sit and training a dog to send something into a time loop lasting a specific amount of time that would work to undo the BSA.

 

I'd still support it, but I really feel like we need the relevant people to confirm that a Vremya would feasibly get the specifics right.

I see your point BUT!

 

I was thinking of some of the far more complicated stuff dogs have been trained to do... well beyond a simple 'sit, stay'.

Dogs have been trained to act as guides for the blind and helpers for the disabled... as well as assistance to law enforcement and all sorts of things.

Admittedly not all dogs are smart enough for such, but I would picture these guys as on the level of a SMART dog?

 

Also admittedly it would definitely take some training to get it right... BUT that is where the suggestion of a fail rate would come in, perhaps?

[Shokomon]

13 minutes ago, Keileon said:

My only qualm is Drake intelligence. There's a difference between training a dog to sit and training a dog to send something into a time loop lasting a specific amount of time that would work to undo the BSA.

 

{Snip}

But just to add support to dog intellegience, you can also train dog to sniff outt drugs and bombs, warn people when they are about to have seizures, panic attacks, and othe psychiatric episodes, and teach them [the dogs] to respond accordingly to said attacks/items.

 

Dogs have also rescued people from dangerous situations. 

 

Since, the drakes arleady have an instinctual grasp on time, you have to train it not to make time loops anyway (or else you and your things are going to be stuck looping in your own house.)

 

Edit: Can you imagine one particularly smart drake looping you whenever it was dinner time?

Quote

Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh-

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Shokomon

[hazeh]

3 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, it does say that Vremyas have "impeccable abilities to alter time". To me, that implies impeccable control, too.

I wrote impeccable abilities because they have such impressive power-- not that they intentionally use it or have any sort of refined control over it. Because it's an instinctual response, it can't be relied on that the drake would be able to complete the task as requested 100% of the time. Maybe you have your drake trained, which is why they can even focus enough on the egg or hatchling to intentionally do something to it, but there would certainly be moments where the drake gets distracted or alarmed by something else in its environment. That's all I was going for when I suggested some sort of fail rate be included. It doesn't have to include removing time-- that was just an idea that I had, but I'm not committed to keeping that part.

 

They are flighty creatures that have incredibly sensitive reflexes, and you can't always "train out" an animal's instincts. They were thought to be one of the smarter drakes, but they are actually rather average in terms of intelligence among drakes, which means the more "intelligent" dog breeds being able to complete certain unusual tasks wouldn't necessarily apply. 

[Keileon]

I know dogs can be trained to do incredible things; I gave a very basic analogy. It's just that there's a certain level of communicating expectation/desire to the Drake that would make this harder-- training to *stop* an action is naturally easier.

[hazeh]

3 minutes ago, Keileon said:

I know dogs can be trained to do incredible things; I gave a very basic analogy. It's just that there's a certain level of communicating expectation/desire to the Drake that would make this harder-- training to *stop* an action is naturally easier.

Maybe you don't train it, then.  Maybe you just jump out and startle it enough so the egg/hatchling you're holding gets stuck in a time loop with you. 

 

 

[olympe]

1 hour ago, Shokomon said:

Since, the drakes arleady have an instinctual grasp on time, you have to train it not to make time loops anyway (or else you and your things are going to be stuck looping in your own house.)

Quote

Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh, hey. It's time for dinner...Oh-

Edit: Can you imagine one particularly smart drake looping you whenever it was dinner time?

That would have to be one fat drake...  

 

58 minutes ago, hazeh said:

Maybe you don't train it, then.  Maybe you just jump out and startle it enough so the egg/hatchling you're holding gets stuck in a time loop with you. 

That was kind of the idea I had in my had. Startle the drake by rolling the egg by it, maybe spook it with a magical bang while doing so. Drake puts egg in time loop and runs. Success! As for hatchlings, you could always dress them up as adult Kovos Pygmies to startle the drake into thinking it's being attacked. Another success!

 

ETA: While I understand that a fail rate would make sense, I think that people will just collect more Vremyas to give another one a try at succeeding. Overall, a fail rate is just an annoying mechanic which doesn't add anything but frustration to game play. And being able to undo a BSA would be something that isn't done just because you can, but because you feel you need to do it. Not to mention that bouncing already achieves the same result anywway.

Edited May 30, 2019 by olympe

[Aalbiel]

I completely agree with having a "bounce" that doesn't involve another player. This can be helpful to people who don't really play with anyone else but also for everyone at busy times (holidays etc...) when everyone is less likely to have the scroll space to bounce something for you. In favour!

 

I don't really see the point of a fail rate but I wouldn't pitch a tantrum if it had one ^^

Edited May 31, 2019 by Aalbiel

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

I'd love this! I've wanted BSA reversing for a long time so this is a great way to incorporate it

 

To me, it makes perfect sense. A dog has an innate ability to bark, Vremyas have an innate ability to create time loops. Hold a treat above a dog's nose and you can easily teach it to speak on command - so stick the desired hatchie by the drake and say "Vremya, time loop!" It seems the same to me  Of course, I completely agree with the fail rate, because even a well-trained dog will slip up from time to time, but I really enjoy this idea :3

[hazeh]

On 5/30/2019 at 8:39 AM, olympe said:

 

ETA: While I understand that a fail rate would make sense, I think that people will just collect more Vremyas to give another one a try at succeeding. Overall, a fail rate is just an annoying mechanic which doesn't add anything but frustration to game play. And being able to undo a BSA would be something that isn't done just because you can, but because you feel you need to do it. Not to mention that bouncing already achieves the same result anywway.

 

I mean, I don't see the issue in collecting more Vremyas.  

Fail rates are annoying mechanics, yes. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. It's all part of the game play. The point of BSAs are to be "breed specific" and while a complete success rate for this type of action would be nice, it would not quite fit within the bounds of what a Vremya is without even a small chance of the drake having an oopsie. They are not supposed to be obedient dogs that obey your whim. If you want the 100% success, you can bounce your egg. That's a decent trade off, I think. 

 

Edit: And when I say fail rate, I don't mean something as drastic as a 50% chance the Vremya skedaddles on you or time loops the wrong thing. A small one is fine with me, but in order for it to be a Vremya-specific action, it feels necessary to me. My intention with these drakes when I made them was that they are very easily alarmed/upset, even with the best of intentions or with someone they're comfortable around. They're my little time-loop land mines that chain-reaction time loops if a bird flies too close to their heads.  

Edited May 31, 2019 by hazeh

[Kovia]

Would this affect the egg/hatchies views in any way, or just the time left and BSAs? I could see issues of time looping an egg with a lot of views and having it suddenly get sick or even die from now being too young for the amount of views it has.

 

And would there be a time limit on when you can use this, like how you can't Incubate an egg with 2 or less days left? If not, it could prove useful to Neglecters, tho that then means we have to decide if the egg/hatchie turning into a Neglected should be undone or not (I'd say not but logic dictates that it should).

 

I could see some shenanigans being done with this and Stun to make an egg last an unusually long amount of time, but that's not really game breaking. I personally have never had issues with incorrect Influencing, which seems to be the main use for this, but I could see it being helpful to others.

[olympe]

If I may make some suggestions for (partial) fails...

1. Roll the success chance for every single BSA performed on the egg/hatchling (that hasn't been removed yet). So, you might fail in some instances and not in others. Maybe you get an Incubate removed, but not an Influence. Ideally, you'd get notified which BSAs got removed, but you could always figure it out by attempting to re-use it.
2. Add a random amount of time to the egg's/hatchling's timer - maybe something random between 0 and 12 hours? (Kind of like a penalty.)

 

@Kovia I just had an influence fail - meaning I failed to influence, not that a performed influence failed. I'm now the proud owner of 3 male Vremyas for my one female. Lonely girl needs company...

I also don't think that the change in timer should be big enough to cause real issues. If you're clever, you won't use Time Loop on an egg that's less than 24 hours old anyway.

[Sazandora]

Please no adding time on an egg/hatchling's timer upon failure, there's no need to make things even more complicated and potentially annoying. I think it's just enough that the BSA could fail to do anything at all, there's no need to further punish people for daring to try and reverse BSA usage.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Sazandora