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High Lord November

Small CB indicator dot

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13 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

All gen 5s are not created equal -- just sayin'. While it might be somewhat helpful to have the generation indicated, it still would not tell you if it was a stair, a carefully planned even gen, or a total mess. I have some of each on my scroll and which one a dragon is makes a great deal of difference in breeding. So I don't really see a generation marker as being terribly helpful.

 

Crumbs, good point. Generation count would be basically useless.

 

Two of my 7th gens:

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/zHq35

 

and

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/hPfbk

 

No comparison.

 

 

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I like the mockup.  The dots make it look like a bullet-pointed list, so they're nice and unobtrusive, but once you know it's there, you can tell at a glance which is which.

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5 hours ago, purplehaze said:

All gen 5s are not created equal -- just sayin'. While it might be somewhat helpful to have the generation indicated, it still would not tell you if it was a stair, a carefully planned even gen, or a total mess. I have some of each on my scroll and which one a dragon is makes a great deal of difference in breeding. So I don't really see a generation marker as being terribly helpful.

Because, if you're looking for a 5th gen mate, you won't have to look through all the 2nd-4th or all the 6th+gen dragons on your scroll. Only the 5th gens. That might cut down on your searching quite a bit.

 

5 hours ago, purplehaze said:

A small dot for CB's as shown in the mock-up would be okay, but I wouldn't support anything beyond that. As @HeatherMarie has pointed out, generations are not always consistently accurate anyway.

That's usually the case for lines including deceased ancestors or with CB black alts, which appear to retain their generation despite being impossible to find. Most people wouldn't create lines with that, anyway - so why is this exception a deal-breaker?

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Posted (edited)

Oops on mobile and didn't zoom, I see the name now! Very unobtrusive.

 

The marker isn't only for cb's, it's for those and lineaged dragons.

 It's not that cb's are special, it's that they'd be the usual starting point to making lines, and this way I won't have to check each and every dragon of same breed to find them, or name them with 1 or cb or other name devices which ppl seem to dislike in trades.

The non-cb's get a a dot as well, which helps showcase already lineaged dragons-which cuts down on misbreeds,and the same hunt and peck to find them. An extra detail to sorting scrolls is all. (No shade to inbreds, they'd have the non-cb dot since they have a lineage.) Everyone gets a marker!

 

(If it did add a number, say 3,it may not show you stair, eg or anything but it would narrow it down to all the 3G's you have which seems like a timer saver to me. But yeah, if the counter is wrong..)

 

eta:sorry Olympe! You already said it while I was still typing and doing other stuff and didn't check before I finally hit send!

Edited by Uther_Pendragon
Ninja'd

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I would be so happy if we could have an easy way to tell which dragons are CB and which are not.  :D

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1 hour ago, olympe said:

Because, if you're looking for a 5th gen mate, you won't have to look through all the 2nd-4th or all the 6th+gen dragons on your scroll. Only the 5th gens. That might cut down on your searching quite a bit.

 

That's usually the case for lines including deceased ancestors or with CB black alts, which appear to retain their generation despite being impossible to find. Most people wouldn't create lines with that, anyway - so why is this exception a deal-breaker?

 

I'm not sure about 'most people', not everyone only breeds 'clean' dragons and such. Regardless, I really don't think a brand-new feature should be made based off a broken feature... That's just going to display the brokenness even more prominently. If the generation counter ever gets fixed, then sure, but right now it *is* broken, regardless of how many lineage-users it would actually actively affect. It just doesn't make sense to me to label this 2nd-gen, for instance, given the way the lineage looks... I really don't like the idea of having outright *wrong* information showing on our scroll right next to the dragon. 

 

I wouldn't totally mind something like in the mock-up, although I do wonder if the filled-in vs open dot would be obvious enough on smaller screens like mobile.

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I'd love a way to see if my dragons are CB, an indicator would be nice :lol: Though... *eyes the discussion above* I think I'm with @olympe on this one. In a way would feel weird and illogical to me for CBs to be rendered "different" from everything else through such a distinction, and an actual generation indicator would be nicer imo. As far as the gen count glitch goes, I don't think a bug (that's going to be fixed eventually, hopefully?) should prevent a feature from existing.

But yeah, if there's a way to make it small and neat I'd love to see smth like that :) 

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11 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I'm not sure about 'most people', not everyone only breeds 'clean' dragons and such. Regardless, I really don't think a brand-new feature should be made based off a broken feature... That's just going to display the brokenness even more prominently. If the generation counter ever gets fixed, then sure, but right now it *is* broken, regardless of how many lineage-users it would actually actively affect. It just doesn't make sense to me to label this 2nd-gen, for instance, given the way the lineage looks... I really don't like the idea of having outright *wrong* information showing on our scroll right next to the dragon. 

 

I wouldn't totally mind something like in the mock-up, although I do wonder if the filled-in vs open dot would be obvious enough on smaller screens like mobile.

So, because it would only benefit *most* people because the lineage counter is correct in *most* cases, it shouldn't be implemented? And because the lineage counter isn't 100% perfect, it shouldn't be used for something else?

You know what? Common(new) x common (old) breeding is also broken. With the same logic, it shouldn't be possible to breed new commons to old commons because this only showcases how broken common x common breeding actually is.

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I think it would be better to wait until the generation feature is fixed, before adding in numbered gen indicators. Just looking through my scroll now I see a lot of mistakes and inconsistencies (even in lines without dead dragons). It would give false and conflicting information if it were implemented as-is. Once it's fixed, it can be added in.

 

I personally still think the CB indicator can be implemented standalone at first.

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CB indicator - sure. But a generation indicator would be so random in terms of different TYPES and the like. And then people will say - wait - we need an EG generation indicator/a stairstep indicator - and so on. We need to take some responsibility for our own planning etc.

 

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Posted (edited)

I really like the idea of the mockup cb or non cb dots.

 

I'm not understanding when it's said that it's already discriminating- are you saying that in a bad way, like lineaged are automatically worse off than the cb's? Because I don't view it that way at all. Many lineaged dragons can be more valuable than cb's (SAlts for example, out of many). I think it would simply be helpful- a dragon either is or is not cb. It's not to say either one is worse than the other. 

 

I think I lean towards agreeing with olympe on the other discussion though.... Standalone would be better, and then implementing the other. Can someone show me examples of dragons who have gen count that aren't correct?

Edited by Nightwalkerkey

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No - I am just saying that an indicator of the generations in a dragon's lineage is so variable that it wouldn't really be that sensible to try to cover everyone's needs in that area.

 

6th gen.

 

Fine - checker ? spiral ? messy ? deadline ? EG Thuwed ? PB ? Could mean anything.

 

 

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I think this ends up being a bit controversial because "CB" value is something really invented by the players -- the game itself does not care about "CBs". Even though a lot of us might want it, it probably isn't on the top of the priority list. I'm sure TJ will speak for himself eventually though.

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It's not about their value though - it's just about finding them when you want to breed them. Most players with large scrolls do breed, and most of those do want to be able to find their CBs.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, but that's the point: indeed some ppl may want to easily spot their CB dragons for breeding, but, firstly, CB dragons aren't any different in breeding when it comes to the mechanics per se, and secondly, what if there are ppl who don't breed CBs and would love to, say, see their Gen 2 dragons for breeding or whatever? Why do the former deserve a special indicator that immediately reports their generation (CB) whereas the latter don't, even though the game doesn't treat them differently?

 

A generation number would be an elegant compromise here, I think. It's simple and small enough. Sure, the exact *lineage* info would be missing (stair, spiral, whatnot), but generation alone would help a lot of players distinguish between their dragons quicklier and easier. 

 

 

Edited by Tears in Rain

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Definitely support this idea!

However, I think I am in the minority here, but I guess the dot seems odd to have in the normal scroll view in my opinion in their current position.

My opinion is almost nitpicking but suddenly having the dots there would seem odd after so long used to that view (I know, silly) and the fact that the dots don't really serve a purpose when just scrolling through your dragons, they seem almost unnecessary.

In my opinion a better solution would have the dots with generation number showing up only when you are adding / sorting dragons in a group or on your scroll, or when you are choosing a dragon to use an action upon, e.g when breeding and choosing a mate the list of dragons will have an indicator besides them or when choosing an egg to incubate the dot will appear .

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I started adding generation tags to my dragons' names solely so I could recognize which ones are caveborn and which ones are lineaged. Sometimes with naming I goof up and accidentally tag a lineaged dragon as caveborn, or a caveborn as a lineaged dragon, so I suppose I could appreciate this suggestion.

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Posted (edited)

On 3/23/2019 at 11:02 AM, High Lord November said:

I've made a small mockup - one on your main scroll, one on the breeding page. I imagine it like a small dot before the beginning of the name. Solid is for CB, open is for bred. Not 100% sure on how it would change with the really long names but I think it's doable!

 

 

Screen_Shot_2019-03-23_at_11_53.46_AM.png

Screen Shot 2019-03-23 at 11.54.01 AM.png

Oh, YES! I actually think this is a good idea.

 

I have had to take to making a group for my CBs just so that they are easy to find.... though this is even BETTER if this indicator shows up on the dragons' breeding page...

Plus as others have said, it would give me an easy way of double checking my own grouping for mistakes , ensuring that no CBS are missed, for example.

Edited by JavaTigress

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The game is all about lineages and collection - even the site description says it's about lineages. Finding a CB Dragon vs non CB for lineages is helpful. They're "special" in the sense that they're frequently used for starting or continuing lineages and they can't be substituted with a bred dragon. Alternatively, if you're searching for a particular bred dragon, you can safely ignore the CB ones in your search. 

 

In terms of brokenness, there's one example fuzzbucket gave that shows the counter starting at -2. That means a 5th generation Dragon would display a 2nd generation marker. There's a dragon on my page where the counter starts at 2, which means if it were a 10th generation Dragon in reality, it would say it's an 11th gen dragon.

 

Hopefully you can see how using a gen marker without fixing the gen counter would be giving out blatantly false information. The opposite of helpful/useful. 

 

I also personally think naming or grouping particular lineage projects is much more manageable than naming everything CB, which is why I feel it isn't totally needed.

Also you would only ever want to know the lineage of stairsteps or other very nice lineages. A dragon isn't guaranteed to have a nice lineage and most of them don't. It would give out a lot of redundant/unusable info if it were specifically noted for every Dragon imo. 

 

I'm not totally against it being implemented, but I think it should be implemented separate to the CB dot, and should definitely only be implemented once the gen counter is correct.

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I'm definitely in favor of the CB dot, it seems like a nicely minimal way to display that info, and incredibly useful to have (especially on the breeding page!).

I'd love some form of generation counter but I can see why it would be an issue with the current way the site counts generations. This is where something like user created tags would be very helpful. But I don't want to get away from the core suggestion of this thread.

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2 hours ago, High Lord November said:

The game is all about lineages and collection - even the site description says it's about lineages. Finding a CB Dragon vs non CB for lineages is helpful. They're "special" in the sense that they're frequently used for starting or continuing lineages and they can't be substituted with a bred dragon. Alternatively, if you're searching for a particular bred dragon, you can safely ignore the CB ones in your search. 

 

In terms of brokenness, there's one example fuzzbucket gave that shows the counter starting at -2. That means a 5th generation Dragon would display a 2nd generation marker. There's a dragon on my page where the counter starts at 2, which means if it were a 10th generation Dragon in reality, it would say it's an 11th gen dragon.

 

Hopefully you can see how using a gen marker without fixing the gen counter would be giving out blatantly false information. The opposite of helpful/useful. 

So, people can show a handful of examples where the lineage count doesn't work. However, it does work correctly in the vast majority of cases. Exceptions usually involve dead/undead ancestors or CB alt blacks - maybe also some other CB alts and/or hybrids, I don't know. Wouldn't it be easier to name the dragons with a bug in the lineage count something special to indicate the actual generation than having to name everything not CB?

Just to give you an example, my few project groups look like this: https://dragcave.net/group/83695

As you can see, there's a lot of 2nd gens and even a good handful of 3rd and 4th gens. But adding dragons to the group? It's a hassle. Especially around the holiday breeding season, where I need to get as many fitting dragons as possible. And, once I add several, I need to click on every single dragon's view page, then the lineage page (which is known to load rather slowly during times of high demand on the site) - only to find out which generation it is. (Alternately, I can add each single egg/hatchling, then custom sort the group every single time. Yay!) Having a generation counter on the scroll page or group page would help me immensely, while CB vs. non CB isn't helpful at all for a number of projects.

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I would love this, 

I have a hard time to find my CB XD 


10000% support!

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The point about the generation numbers is actually pretty much valid in my opinion. Yes, you can't surely know about the structure of the lines after 2G but where the numbers would help and why people would like them are generally some particular lineage projects already, in my opinion. Many people have lineage project groups with many of the dragons for that line but can't distinguish easily these dragons. While seperating the project down to many other groups with generation numbers is an option, it would be highly inconvenient for the user. So the numbers would be really helpful with those specific lineage project groups, especially.

 

Well, they can also be implemented as an option from account settings, so people who would not like it would simply choose not to use it. Therefore I don't see any cons to that idea. In fact, it would make it much more convenient for the people working on their lines and want to differentiate the Gen numbers of the dragons without having to check each of their lineage views.

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I picked a dragon where the lineage indicator would have been helpful for me. Its lineage starts at 2.  But both of its parents start at 1. So the parents would be gen 11, and their kid is gen 13. 

 

I don't understand why we'd want to rush a broken feature out, instead of opting to fix it first. I'm not saying never have it, I'm saying make sure it works as intended, which I think is a reasonable request.

Screen Shot 2019-03-26 at 3.13.35 PM.png

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Posted (edited)

@High Lord November

The dragon you've shown is in fact Gen 13, not Gen 12. it's just that there are so many generations that are shown in a given lineage at a time - anything higher ends up being hidden. This ancestor of the dragon you picked is Gen 2, not CB: https://dragcave.net/lineage/fq1Y So on the lineage view of this example dragon, the counter shows Gen 2 as the lowest visible generation accordingly. 

So while there are some rare and specific occasions of wrong generation display, they have to do with stuff like CB Alts and whatnot and this one is not the case ^_^ 

 

Edited by Tears in Rain

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