In-site tips for newbies

[animatedrose]

Full support! I die a little inside every single time I see a trade asking for the impossible.

 

Having newbie tips on-site would be really nice. I'd rather not repeat the Trade-Hub-rules-on-forum-only scandal, thank you. The forum has enough here already and it's been proven that not everyone is here. Why should only the forum people benefit? It needs to be on-site, where EVERYONE is. No exceptions.

[Lusy611]

These are all great tips to have - I support 100%. One question to the masses though: how should these tips be organized? There are already a lot, and unless I missed something, I don't think anyone gave a suggestion as to organization. It would be kind of annoying (and a little overwhelming) to have everything just thrown into a long list you'd have to keep scrolling to. 

Perhaps separating tips into categories?  

I don't know how difficult it would be to code for individual "tabs" for each category, either.

 

 

- Lusy611

[DragonLady86]

I thought the idea was to have one at a time display somewhere on the page during each refresh.  Either at the top of each page or along the bottom where the ads are.  A long list is much more likely to be ignored.

[purplehaze]

4 hours ago, DragonLady86 said:

I thought the idea was to have one at a time display somewhere on the page during each refresh.  Either at the top of each page or along the bottom where the ads are.  A long list is much more likely to be ignored.

That was my understanding, too. A long list would be no better than the help page we have now that no one reads, even if it did contain more information.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

It would be handy if they could go somewhere to view the lot if they WANTED to.

[purplehaze]

9 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

It would be handy if they could go somewhere to view the lot if they WANTED to.

True. Maybe if you  click the tip it would take you to the page where they are all listed. Then they would need to be organized in some fashion.

Edited January 7, 2019 by purplehaze

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

It would be handy if they could go somewhere to view the lot if they WANTED to.

 

Yeah, this. Honestly I'm much more likely to look at a list somewhere then random little things that pop up every time I refresh. A list I can go through whenever I need it, whenever I have time, whenever I'm curious, whenever I've forgotten something... What's the chance that someone is going to A. read every single tip that pops up on refresh, and B. actually remember every single tip after only seeing it once? 

[olympe]

Well, let's see. Tips can be categorized for...

 

special breeding mechanics (alts, color variants, hybrids, throwbacks, male-only/female-only breeds, cousin breeds)

BSAs

DC tidbits (graveyard, thuwed, XD-egg, encyclopedia...)

general things (breeding groups, exceptions like breeding restrictions for freshly grown holiday dragons, maybe some hints towards the market and proper behavior on the trading hub)

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

7 minutes ago, olympe said:

Well, let's see. Tips can be categorized for...

 

special breeding mechanics (alts, color variants, hybrids, throwbacks, male-only/female-only breeds, cousin breeds)

BSAs

DC tidbits (graveyard, thuwed, XD-egg, encyclopedia...)

general things (breeding groups, exceptions like breeding restrictions for freshly grown holiday dragons, maybe some hints towards the market and proper behavior on the trading hub)

 

Not so much the bolded, I think. Aren't these more things people need to know just to play ?

 

You don't have to be a genius to realise that rude words etc  the hub will get you into trouble...

[olympe]

@Fuzzbucket You have to be a genius or a forum member to know all the little dos and don'ts of the trading hub, though. Like do not call out to any specific user, do not post exact codes you're looking for in the trading hub, do not repost the same trade more than once an hour (or however often is appropriate) unless something about it changed, do not offer the same thing over and over again on the same trade after your offer got rejected... You get the idea.

 

And just last month, I saw someone posting trades with texts like "CB hollies are always male, CB mistletoes are always female, CB solstices always have rosy wings" because there were so many people trying to trade for things that simply don't exist. I'm pretty sure that person got reported and probably banned from using the want box.

Edited January 7, 2019 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

Sure - but this was asking for tips for totally new players. Trading isn't a total newb thing in the way that trying to breed a drake to a pygmy is. You will never be able to cover every possibility with this; you WILL be able to help new players get somewhere.

 

MAYBE set up a thread here about dos and don'ts of the hub - but if you try to get everything into a newbies tips section, it will be as unmanageable as to be non-helpful. BASICS are basics. Heck - there were very experienced players posting about "why are my mistletoes male" over Christmas.... as well as experienced players saying they thought all bred solstices were blue-winged and now their lineage was ruined.

 

If you try to do too much, the whole thing will topple over.

 

ETA: 

Quote

CB solstices always have rosy wings

 

I believe they DO, actually ? DON'T they ?

Edited January 7, 2019 by Fuzzbucket

[olympe]

Yes, CB solstices are intended to always be rosy-winged.  

 

That being said, some tips could only occur in certain circumstances. Tips related to the trading hub (beyond "there is a trading hub on DC") could only turn up when you enter said hub or try to set up a trade. Tips about holiday breeds ("All CB hollies will turn out male, but bred hollies can be either gender.") could only appear during the respective season, or maybe start appearing a week beforehand and last for one week after.

 

Oh, I've got another one:

+ All CB Undines are green and all CB Stripes are white. Day Glory eggs are laid in the day and Night Glory eggs at night.  

 

Or..

+ CB means "Caveborn" and refers to a dragon that has no known parents.

Edited January 7, 2019 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

But as heather and I both said - they should also all be available in one place, for those (like me) who WOULD read the lot.

[olympe]

Of course. But, as you pointed out, we want the things to pop up, too. So they appear one at a time for easier digestion. And it doesn't make sense to learn about hollies in summer - until the time you can make use of the knowledge, it's most likely gone anyway.

 

Uh, we also need some tips on multi-clutches.

+ Sometimes, when you breed two dragons, they create more than one egg - but you can only choose one of them to keep.

+ If your dragons bred to produce more than one egg, all eggs count towards your scroll limits.

+ If your dragons bred to produce more than one egg, you need to choose one egg to keep within an hour, or all eggs will be abandoned automatically.

[animatedrose]

I like the idea of a tip popping up and, if clicked, leading to the full list. Maybe even personalized somehow so that during holidays, certain tips are emphasized more (only two CBs on vday/xmas, CB Solstice is only rosy-winged, etc.). No clue how much coding that would be, though.

 

Also, please keep it on-site. If you want it on forums, have a forum copy made. But do NOT make it forum-exclusive. The initial Trade Hub rules thing made that mistake VERY CLEAR. Forum-only is VERY BAD. Especially when the emphasis of "forum and site are separate" is used to utter death. Please keep the necessary info on-site where it can actually be used by ALL players, not just those who frequent the forums and get the "perks" of it. Not everyone likes or uses forums for varying reasons, but everyone in DC uses the DC site because...why are you on DC otherwise??

[purplehaze]

9 hours ago, olympe said:

+ If your dragons bred to produce more than one egg, you need to choose one egg to keep within an hour, or all eggs will be abandoned automatically.

But that message appears when you actually have a multiclutch, and if they don't read it there they aren't going to read it when it just pops up randomly!

[Fuzzbucket]

5 hours ago, animatedrose said:

Also, please keep it on-site. If you want it on forums, have a forum copy made. But do NOT make it forum-exclusive. The initial Trade Hub rules thing made that mistake VERY CLEAR. Forum-only is VERY BAD. Especially when the emphasis of "forum and site are separate" is used to utter death. Please keep the necessary info on-site where it can actually be used by ALL players, not just those who frequent the forums and get the "perks" of it. Not everyone likes or uses forums for varying reasons, but everyone in DC uses the DC site because...why are you on DC otherwise??

 

Yes indeed. I totally agree. (It is also a significant barrier to having it off site altogether - not that I support that - as there CANNOT be a link to another site on the cave site - no communication can be on there. And before anyone says it - I assume when TJ negotiated with his job, the already existing link to the forum was made an exception.)

 

5 hours ago, purplehaze said:

But that message appears when you actually have a multiclutch, and if they don't read it there they aren't going to read it when it just pops up randomly!

 

Yes. This is the kind of thing I mean when I say please don't try and include everything or it will almost be worse than not having the feature..

[Shokomon]

I feel like if this is going to be a thing, Vocabulary should be stuff found on the Dragon Cave.

 

Words like "CB" are more of forum or trade terms generated by fans.

 

Unless you are going to have a vocab list somewhere on site, it's best to use terms that can be easily understood without having to got to the fourms or the wiki.

 

After all, not everyone visits here or the wiki. Or we wouldn't have people asking for blue-wing CB solstices.

 

Edit: I suppose you could have the definitions in the tips list, but from what I understand, the tips are not going to be listed all in one page, so people might get a "CB Hollies are always on gender" without ever getting "CB is short for Caveborn or a dragon stolen directly from the Cave Biomes. It's a first generation dragon."

 

Edit 2: Also, I feel like tips for mechanics for summoning special dragons or breeding might be best left out or limited. It may ruin the surprise of figuring out those things yourself. There is a reason why Summon BSA isn't listed in the BSA page.

 

Some things you are supposed to figure out on your own or go look it up. I mean, when you look it up, you are consenting to the spoiler. The current setup for the cycling tips would make spoilers unavoidable for players.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Shokomon

[HeatherMarie]

11 hours ago, Shokomon said:

I feel like if this is going to be a thing, Vocabulary should be stuff found on the Dragon Cave.

 

Words like "CB" are more of forum or trade terms generated by fans.

 

Unless you are going to have a vocab list somewhere on site, it's best to use terms that can be easily understood without having to got to the fourms or the wiki.

 

After all, not everyone visits here or the wiki. Or we wouldn't have people asking for blue-wing CB solstices.

 

Edit: I suppose you could have the definitions in the tips list, but from what I understand, the tips are not going to be listed all in one page, so people might get a "CB Hollies are always on gender" without ever getting "CB is short for Caveborn or a dragon stolen directly from the Cave Biomes. It's a first generation dragon."

 

Edit 2: Also, I feel like tips for mechanics for summoning special dragons or breeding might be best left out or limited. It may ruin the surprise of figuring out those things yourself. There is a reason why Summon BSA isn't listed in the BSA page.

 

Some things you are supposed to figure out on your own or go look it up. I mean, when you look it up, you are consenting to the spoiler. The current setup for the cycling tips would make spoilers unavoidable for players.

 

I remember, long ago, when there was like a whole bunch of things we weren't supposed to talk about here on the forums because of 'spoilers'. I remember when showing adult sprites, what the eggs would turn into, was considered a 'spoiler' and something many people wanted to figure out for themselves. I agree the 'tips' should remain relatively free of spoilers that people may prefer to figure out themselves, at least if the 'tips' will be popping up and not on a specific page you go to. 

 

I also agree about vocab. TJ already replied to comments regarding terms used in the trading hub. CB, PB, stairstep, etc etc, all that stuff is user-generated and should not be a part of official tips. Now, something like 'Hollies taken from the cave' or 'with no parents' or somesuch, that's better and perhaps more clear then using a term that not everyone is going to understand and isn't even an official term to begin with.

 

 

[olympe]

Why not use this: "First generation Hollies, meaning those directly from the cave, are always male."

 

Although, personally, I think a list of very common terms (CB, n-th gen, PB, EG, checkerboard/checker, stairstep, staircase/spiral, SA, Thuwed, alt, HM, unbreedables...) should be there. Just so newbies actually understand what people are talking about in the on-site trading hub. Because, if they cannot go to the forums, how else are they supposed to find out? They probably won't know about the inofficial wiki, they cannot PM anyone on site... And, while we're at it, I think common alternate names for dragons (Split, Holly, Vine, Trio, Bluna, Grey, Tinsel, Shimmer...) and common abbreviations (BBW, GoN, STD, GW...) should be listed, too.

Edited January 10, 2019 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

You are never going to manage "tips" at this level of complexity.

[olympe]

Well, maybe this shouldn't be actual tips that cycle, but something that's somehow attached to the trading hub. A little link with typical trading hub lingo.

[Fuzzbucket]

Now THAT would be a good idea  

[Shokomon]

34 minutes ago, olympe said:

Well, maybe this shouldn't be actual tips that cycle, but something that's somehow attached to the trading hub. A little link with typical trading hub lingo.

 

This sounds like it would be a separate thing entirely.

The way the OP describes it, this is just a general tips list made by fans. 

 

Limiting it to just the Trading Hub would probably change the type of tips given.

 

And even, if you did have a separate page of it, you would still have to manage the issue of fan vs official vocabulary. Definitions would have to be hammered out first before any other tips about the dragons showed up. It doesn't really change the level of management that Fuzzbucket seems to be pointing out. 

[olympe]

Well, things can be managed separately. And, truth to be told, I didn't think through every possible scenario. As you know, ideas develop through discussion, so some parts may move a little bit off-topic.

 

And, while most terms in the trading section are fan-made, they're used quite universally, and have been used for ages. When I started playing in '09, terms like checker, CB, EG, PB and stairstep were already there, as far as I remember. I think the spiral staircase thing became semi-official a little bit later. Thuwed is pretty much a thing, too - if only because TJ's dragons actually show as "confirmed Thuwed".