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In-site tips for newbies

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Interesting idea, but personally I'd make things a bit vaguer. Some people like to "discover" things and not have them spelled out for them. Maybe like "Certain eggs react to the time of day" or "Legendary dragons await those who can conquer many rare breeds" or stuff along those lines.

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I wouldn't mind some vagueness, but keep in mind that not everyone has a forum account or knows of the wiki's existence. There's no way to ask anyone on-site if things get too vague. And too much vagueness can just be frustrating to people that want to enjoy the game like everyone else. You could figure out, say, Fire Gems from the Market easily. What about Lunar Heralds? Luminas? As for "conquering many rare breeds"...that just immediately brings metals to mind for me, which would be 100% wrong for BOTH summon BSAs.

 

I wouldn't mind maybe a separate link for the tips, but I also like the idea of rotating tips. Maybe have the option to disable them for those that want to avoid spoilers? Like in that scrolling intro thing that new players have on their scroll that leads to the hatcheries and such. That could be useful. That would let people who want to come in blind and endlessly discover have their way, and those who aren't as interested in blind discovery be able to learn quickly as they play.

 

Also, agreed on the terminology bit. We should probably either have those added to the tips, maybe attached to the Trade Hub, or just keep it to "picked up from cave/biomes" and "bred". I know for the first year of playing, I wasn't big into lineages so I was forever lost when people babbled about "stairsteps" and "EGs" and "mirrors". I had no idea what a "Thuwed" was or why it was so important to some people. "SAlts" meant nothing because I had never seen one before. Same with "HMs". Even now, I'm still finding new terms. Since these are all fan-generated, keeping it simple is probably best unless the tips have a special lineage terms section.

 

But at this point, the tips become less tips and more a big guide. Which I wouldn't mind since the wiki is pretty unreliable. But TJ will never go for posting a guide, so I'm content with tips at least.

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I'm going to go ahead and say it: I don't like the idea of user-lingo being a part of in-cave 'tips'. I just don't think it's going to be as simple as some people assume, and honestly it did sound like TJ was against making lingo 'official' anyways. Stuff like 'CB', okay that's fairly universal... But not everything is. Just go look at the Lineage Terminology thread to see how different people see certain things. Does 'purebred' mean one breed only, or one *variant* only, and can hybrids ever be 'purebred'? There are multiple versions of things like stairsteps, spirals, etc that not everyone is going to agree on. I really don't think that 'tips' should include jargon that may or may not be universal and understandable. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, things can be managed separately. And, truth to be told, I didn't think through every possible scenario. As you know, ideas develop through discussion, so some parts may move a little bit off-topic.

 

And, while most terms in the trading section are fan-made, they're used quite universally, and have been used for ages. When I started playing in '09, terms like checker, CB, EG, PB and stairstep were already there, as far as I remember. I think the spiral staircase thing became semi-official a little bit later. Thuwed is pretty much a thing, too - if only because TJ's dragons actually show as "confirmed Thuwed".

While thats true for some terms, there are terms that go relatively unused, are fairly situational or are no longer applicable due to updates to the Cave.

 

Like I had recently looked at the Terminology thread that I didn't know existed:

And some of the terms don't work because of the change to hatching/growing time or the multi-biomes introduction.

 

And there are posts just above me who bring up terms that just came into existence (SALTkins refering to the Messy Alt Omen Offspring of last year) and terms complicated by trading practices.

 

How do we figure out which terms best go on the site? When do we remove or change them? And how do we monitor that type of thing since these are all user generated?

 

We have a thread I posted, but it's obviously not maintained, considering the OP hasn't been updated since 2013.

 

And this is just Vocab, not even the tips themselves.

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Right on, Shokomon. I can just about see CB - and bloodswap, actually  - but you don't need that in how to play tips anyway,; they should be about the basics of the game. The hub is great - but not essential to play in the way that knowing not to try breed a pygmy with a two-headed is (or in the way that breeding two males together is - it always surprises me when people post they can't breed two dragons together why not - and they are both male...)

 

There's no way lingo will ever work. There are just too many variants and niche expressions (I want new Slimeridge blood... I'm not asking for that in the hub :) But there are a lot of people here who will know what I mean - and many many more who won't.)

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Well, it's because of all the niche terms that I made an exhaustive list of things I actually want to see. Just the most common and universal terms. That's why, for example, I only wanted the Thuwed line mentioned, and not Dusk/Dorkface/d'Hennegel... Because Thuwed is the only line that's actually officially on the site.

 

Regarding terms that are sometimes a little hard to define, like PB - just add that some people only consider a dragon PB if all ancestors are not only the same breed, but also the same variety. And that some people consider hybrids "PB" if they're purebred from the 2nd generation on. (And when in doubt, check the lineage.)

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Exactly -as you say yourself - PB means different things to different people. I have a PB Thuwed.... https://dragcave.net/lineage/hPfbk :lol:  Ad what I would consider PB Geodes: https://dragcave.net/lineage/jlyZS

 

I can just see someone saying it shouldn't be listed as PB - and others saying if it's PB where can we get CB ones, and so on. It's a recipe for complaints about misdescriptions.

 

It will never fly. Not officially. There ARE no official terms for loads of this stuff. And having to write a paragraph to explain each one.... That IS forum stuff, there's no getting away from it - and it will never pan out in the hub, because of the different terms people use. 

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I totally agree that non-official terms shouldn't be used. Honestly, I have no idea what PB actually means - I always just thought it was interchangeable with CB but apparently not! There are many ways of describing things without using colloquial/forum terms, so they should be used instead imo.

 

Either way, still really support this! I don't think the tips should be "collectible" or "unlockable" or involved with the encyclopaedia in any way - they should be equally available to everyone. I would, however, support there being a collation of them in the help section somewhere. Like a Tips page where you can see all of them. I say this because on the other site I use, I have occasionally accidentally skipped over a tip that sounded really helpful and then spent like 10 minutes furiously refreshing the page trying to find it again! I don't think the Tips page should be the only place to find them - I still think they should be in the form of little popup boxes (which, again, I believe should be an option people can toggle on and off) - but I think having all of them be collated somewhere where you can try to find them if you accidentally miss them (or just want to read through them all) would be nice :)

Edited by RealWilliamShakespeare
Apparently I was asleep when I first wrote this?

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Considering how big our want box is, things like CB (=caveborn), PB (=purebred), SA (=spriter's alt), EG (=even-gen) are very much needed abbreviations. And since trading has become an official part of DC, at least the basics need to be explained to people who cannot go to the forums. At least in the very truest sense of the meaning.

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You know - I hate to be pedantic - but we can SEE what is being offered and what is being offered in return by LOOKING at it. And CB is the only one of those that cannot be misunderstood.

 

I have seen this

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/mFMg6

 

called EG - and it is, really. It's perfectly even. But not what even I would call even.  And more importantly - none of these terms is - or ever will be - official.

 

And people who don't get CB, EG or SA won't necessarily know the terms if they ARE spelt out in a larger want box.

 

I don't know how many people spend a huge amount of time in the hub, but I would honestly have thought it wasn't that arduous to check through offers. The people who use those terms know what they mean by them. If we get offers that don't match what we asked for -  having used terms that the offerer doesn't know (or disregards, let's be blunt !) - we can simply reject them. It really doesn't take that long.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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It may not take long for you to reject an offer that doesn't fit your description, but if someone doesn't know what a bloodswap/EG/SA line is, much less how to offer one, their ability to partake in the trading hub is severely limited. So, in essence, I don't want this kind of thing for people who already know their way around the reject button, I want this for less experienced players who want to be able to trade, but can't offer what's being asked because they simply don't understand it or misconstrue it.

Edited by olympe

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1 hour ago, olympe said:

It may not take long for you to reject an offer that doesn't fit your description, but if someone doesn't know what a bloodswap/EG/SA line is, much less how to offer one, their ability to partake in the trading hub is severely limited. So, in essence, I don't want this kind of thing for people who already know their way around the reject button, I want this for less experienced players who want to be able to trade, but can't offer what's being asked because they simply don't understand it or misconstrue it.

 

Sure, but trying to get everything that anyone MIGHT put as a want when even we don't agree on terminology and when it isn't official so people can use it any which way they like just won't fly, olympe. People invent new terms every week. SALTkin ? I have one - or two, actually. I had no idea till I was in this thread. IF someone had wanted one I'd have had no idea. SA - then you get people asking how they can actually get one - it doesn't mean what it appears to mean. 

 

I know what you want and I can see why you want it and it's sweet of you - I just think it cannot possibly be made to work.

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3 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Sure, but trying to get everything that anyone MIGHT put as a want when even we don't agree on terminology and when it isn't official so people can use it any which way they like just won't fly, olympe. People invent new terms every week. SALTkin ? I have one - or two, actually. I had no idea till I was in this thread. IF someone had wanted one I'd have had no idea. SA - then you get people asking how they can actually get one - it doesn't mean what it appears to mean. 

 

I know what you want and I can see why you want it and it's sweet of you - I just think it cannot possibly be made to work.

 

Completely agree. Unofficial terminology is simply so vast and open that it *can't* really be put into a 'tips' type of thing on-site with any true accuracy. Not unless there is a very very long 'tips' page that spells out every single definition *and* every variation of that definition.... And I highly doubt many people would actually read that! 

 

Yes, the trading hub currently requires abbreviations because of the limited amount of space in the 'want' box. Yes, it's easier to trade if you understand those abbreviations. But there is already multiple topics here in the forums if people care to look, *and* multiple pages outside of the forums if people care to Google it (I just tried, besides the wiki there are multiple other fansites that include a crude terminology list.) *Because* these terms are so variable and mean different things to different people, if someone is so intent on finding out what they mean they need to look. There is no way that 'tips' can, or should, be used as an exhaustive terminology list.

 

As for the idea of general, *basic* 'tips' about how to use DC, I'm all for it. I'm very interested in seeing how hard it would be for people to agree on what should be included in those tips, though. In this thread I've seen general basic things as well as very specific things about specific breeds and actions. 

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1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Sure, but trying to get everything that anyone MIGHT put as a want when even we don't agree on terminology and when it isn't official so people can use it any which way they like just won't fly, olympe. People invent new terms every week. SALTkin ? I have one - or two, actually. I had no idea till I was in this thread. IF someone had wanted one I'd have had no idea. SA - then you get people asking how they can actually get one - it doesn't mean what it appears to mean. 

 

I know what you want and I can see why you want it and it's sweet of you - I just think it cannot possibly be made to work.

Just because some people don't know the meaning of certain terms (like that gorgeous, heart-shaped lineage you posted that is most definitely not EG because the generations, though symmetrical, are anything but even). And, just in case, wouldn't it be better to make these terms official instead of wishy-washy so people actually speak the same language when trading?

And, really, the only term (of the ones I mentioned) that's kind of problematic is PB because hybrids can only be PB from the 2nd generation on. Which is mostly common knowledge, and I've often seen people refer to those hybrids as "PB" instead of PB. It's also quite obvious that a "PB 2nd gen alt black/vine/undine" must have regular parents since that's how those alts work.

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really? does this count as PB:https://dragcave.net/lineage/w5wl1  or this one? https://dragcave.net/lineage/klvA  which is not an EG and thus also "messy" or does only this one count because it's the only one with ALL the same dragon? https://dragcave.net/lineage/oeCM(never realized I have no alternating stripe lineages dispite likeing them so much) What about Seasonal lineages? Does it only count if all "Spring" or can the seasons alternate like so many like to do?  I personally do NOT count hybrids because they have THREE different dragons in them not just one.  Purebred equals same.  Alts are at least the same breed (as are the stripes I linked), seasonals, I could be swayed either way.

 

I do NOT support a full dictionary for the hub until and unless everyone can actually agree what those terms are. and IF that should happen, it should be a separate thing from the idea of basic tips for the site, thus needing it's own topic.

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10 hours ago, olympe said:

Just because some people don't know the meaning of certain terms (like that gorgeous, heart-shaped lineage you posted that is most definitely not EG because the generations, though symmetrical, are anything but even). And, just in case, wouldn't it be better to make these terms official instead of wishy-washy so people actually speak the same language when trading?

And, really, the only term (of the ones I mentioned) that's kind of problematic is PB because hybrids can only be PB from the 2nd generation on. Which is mostly common knowledge, and I've often seen people refer to those hybrids as "PB" instead of PB. It's also quite obvious that a "PB 2nd gen alt black/vine/undine" must have regular parents since that's how those alts work.

 

But it is "even" in the exact same way many things in life are even. AND: your last point - YOU know what YOU mean when you use the terms you cited. I may very well not agree on some of them. They aren't problematic for you because you - and presumably those you deal with - agree that they are correct. I'm a mentor; I've had some very reasonable enquiries about lineage terms which make perfect sense and which had never occurred to me.

 

AND - is a 2 gen EG ? Opinions even here differ. IF there is to be standard terminology, it would have to be defined by TJ. If we try to use terms "agreed by users" there will be disagreement there, and people will carry on using their term the way they did before, even if it is ruled out...

 

It isn't actually "obvious" that an alt vine etc must have regular parents. I am asked this quite often. It is obvious to those who know it has to be bred. But that info isn't even in the encyclopaedia. You want these tips to help new players. Those new players who didn't know that....

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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2g is simply 2g, just like CB is simply CB/without lineage, all 2gs have the same shape, no matter what you try to do... calling this EG would be stating the obvious and you shouldn't refer to 2gs as specificaly EG, especially since each 2g is a perfect starter for 3g that is EG, stair etc. and is not displaying ANY pattern yet. Sure, if sb just seeks for any gen EG, 2g sorta falls into that (as well as when sb seeks for any gen staair, 2g sorta falls into that either),, but when you seek for 2g specifically, you don't say "2g EG", you just say "2g", and even if sb said "2g stair..." well, it's still the same 2g... that's why those lineage shapes just don't aply to 2g and you just don't label 2gs. 

 

Yes, because those terms are widely used AND not 100% uniform, and are unseparable part of the Trade hub, they just need to be uniformed, even if that means 1 person will have to decide on what exactly stands behind each term, even if that means we all will have to slightly redefine our understading of at least 1 of these terms each, thoe terms oly make sense when the entire community uses them in the same way... what's happening to "drake" tbh.. TJ DID force change of use of that term for DC, and new players just have to accept that on DC all references to a drake mean the extra breeding group, not the number of limbs and bodytype... And whenever you use "drake" for "wingless western" on DC, you HAVE to take into account people will first consider the breeding class, not the wingless... this is because this word WAS unoformed for the site... I fail to see why lineage types names are any different, lots of new DC users DO think of drakes as of wingless westerns, but they sooner or later find out and accomodate, at least when they try to trade for either a DC drake or a wingless western because that's they only way they can be understood. 

And because trading hub and those terms ARE used in the game... well, it's only logical to uniform them somehow and make them official-official.

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But see, the EG trade threads allow 2 gens... :)

 

All I'm saying is that we do not agree among ourselves what these terms mean (except CB and x-gen) - so how can we hope to create an "accurate" list that works for everyone ? Unless TJ creates an official list - and even then we will use our own terms, let's face it.

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You may not be able to get down all of the DC terminology, but certainly simpler like "CB" could be put into tips.

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@Fuzzbucket Just because all 2nd gens are even-gen by default - and thus don't have to be labelled as such - doesn't mean that they aren't even-gen or need to be excluded from EG trade threads.  :rolleyes:

 

And, no, there's no way the lineage you posted is even-gen. (Not even the number of generations is even, but odd instead.) EGs have a straight and even line at the right-hand border because every single available spot for ancestors is filled. Your example has very obvious indents there. Things this lineage could be called are arrowhead, heart-shaped or mirrored/symmetrical, but most definitely not even-gen. And while the lineage can be considered even in the sense of symmetrical, it's not even-gen.

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EGs have a straight end line at the right hand end in your view and indeed in mine. :)But not in everyone's - and no-one can say that is the only way, because there is no official definition.

 

You are making my point for me here XD

 

But I don't know why you say the no of gens is odd - it's a 4th gen, whatever way you look at it... :wacko:

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My bad, my memory had it at 3rd for some weird reason. XD 

You're also making my point for me - because I feel that definitions of often-used terms need to be official and the same for everyone. So everyone speaks the same language when trading. So, an official list of terms (including tips cycling when visiting the trading hub) would be quite beneficial.

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Exactly - an OFFICIAL list. But that isn't something we need in general newbie tips. What is needed there is that you can't breed a drake with a twoheaded, and to fog sick things, and VITAL stuff like that. Not being able to trade effectively in the hub isn't half as important as not knowing how to play at all.

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As far as newbie tips go, things I would like to see are more basic elements of gameplay:

 

"Teleporting or abandoning an egg cancels any Influence." / "Teleporting or abandoning an egg cancels Incubation."  --> If you only have a few pinks and reds because you're new, you'd want to know this before accidentally undoing it!  Plus, I've seen a number of newbies trying to trade an 'influenced egg' in the Trading Hub, which is not only frustrating to them (people who know better won't offer on their trade) but to other players (people who don't know better might offer, then feel they were lied to when the egg doesn't gender as they were told it would). 

 

"Once you have abandoned an egg or hatchling, you can't pick it up again."  (optionally, "unless it is abandoned by someone else"?)  --> It's not made clear in the 'abandon' action text that this is the case, so this might help with "but I can SEE that another user didn't grab it, it's still in the AP!' frustration.

 

"Some breeds of dragon can perform special actions."  --> It might not occur to a user to look at the Actions page for every dragon, especially if they've looked at their first dozen and they were all the same. 

 

Leave the terminology battles to the forums, aside from maybe "CB is a common abbreviation for Cave Born, meaning a dragon caught in the Cave./a dragon with no listed parents."  That might be a good one to have pop up in the trading hub!

 

Which actually brings up a good point: what if the tips were area-dependent?  It'd encourage newbies to visit all areas of the site, and also cut down on "I can ignore that, I've seen it already" because the same tip appeared everywhere by chance?   There could be one for the main page, one for the biomes (I don't think each biome needs its own set!), one for the trading hub, one for the AP.  Maybe one for viewing your own scroll/other people's scrolls/any dragon's page?  One for the Encyclopedia?

 

It would help keep the tips relevant (if you tell me something about the AP when I'm trying to look at dragons I already have, or am frantically trying to click on an egg I want during the biome hourly drop, I probably won't remember it, or even look at it!) and also help newbies navigate the areas as they encounter them, because they'll recognise that useful information is available in each place.

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