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angelicdragonpuppy

Add Holidays to Market in season (no limits)

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@olympe the point of the market isn’t to tell people they have to hunt. The main reason it exists at all is to provide balance to those who can’t hunt much, either from disability or lack of time or slow connection. They shouldn’t have to wait five days to do so; it’s already only one week a year.

 

Plus, I imagine most people would WANT to hunt, anyway. Spending shards is a last resort; therefore I don’t think it needs to be limited in availability.

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The more I think about it, the more I feel that "two from the cave, two from the market" is the way to go here. That way it doesn't provide any advantages that a little bit of saving up can't provide, it effectively increases the CB holiday limit, and it still encourages people to hunt.

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5 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

At least one of the holidays we are talking about is mostly a family event. I'm not sure if enforcing coming back for the last day to buy what you couldn't catch in the first days is the most family-friendly thing to do.

That's why I suggested 1 to 3 days, actually.

 

5 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

@olympe the point of the market isn’t to tell people they have to hunt. The main reason it exists at all is to provide balance to those who can’t hunt much, either from disability or lack of time or slow connection. They shouldn’t have to wait five days to do so; it’s already only one week a year.

 

Plus, I imagine most people would WANT to hunt, anyway. Spending shards is a last resort; therefore I don’t think it needs to be limited in availability.

The point of the market isn't to hand people everything on a silver platter, either. Especially not for cheap and against all limits the site imposes. If you're committed to getting your stuff from the market and it's open for 3 days - and assuming that you'll have to hunt for your 2 new release eggs either on day 1 or day 3, that leaves you with up to 14 market holiday eggs to raise. That's still a lot. Especially considering that there are actual scroll limits of 2 per breed implemented. Strategy would be to hunt for the "easy" stuff - like WWs and most newer breeds - and then buy the few remaining eggs you couldn't catch. If you're already at you intended limit and want to bypass it by using the market, 14 extras is even more than just a lot.

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I do not like limiting the market to a few days only. Especially since the last few days of the event coincides with Christmas itself, the busiest time of the week because people will be completely involved with parties and family. Sure, the prior week is a lot of set-up but if market eggs are available all week you can grab a couple between errands or when you come back home at night, even if it's a little late. Limiting it to 1 day is *incredibly* hard on the schedule, bc playing on the phone when you're mingling with the folks is very rude and parties can often last past midnight, not to mention timezones.

 

Also I do not support no limit market for the moment bc I do not want the market to bypass cave limits even if it's just for a hypothetical year or two, any more than I would want the market to bypass egg limits bc it's "less stressful". Plus, if the market is the only way to get extra holidays it ends up being unfair both to buyers and non-buyers. Why should lineage makers have to spend shards to be able to make lines themselves? Why should someone get to have 30 CB hollies on scroll when everyone else is limited to two for an indefinite time?

Edited by Shadowdrake

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I repeat, I suggested 1-3 (in words: one to three) days. Not just one day. And getting on, even if tired, for a mere 2 minutes in order to buy what you need doesn't seem like such a bother. We're talking about mere minutes here. No competition, no sitting in the cave and refreshing endlessly, only going to the market and buy what you want. If that is too much effort, then I don't know what isn't.

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Why is effort important? They're already spending shards on eggs they could get in-cave, and low-stress is already the whole point of holidays currently implemented.

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I have mixed feelings about this mostly because I don't think new users either have enough shards, want to spend shards, or have the need to start targeting rarer holidays as a "new" user.  Would a larger number of eggs in the holiday biome be a better solution, since it spreads out the competition?

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Since when is going on DC and clicking up to 3 links for getting an egg worthy of the term "effort"? Because it's not.

However, this suggestion is meant to circumvent scroll limits for CB holidays. Opening this channel for 3 days will allow you to get up to two sets of eggs of your choice - that's 14 for everyone with a platinum trophy while still keeping two spots open for the new event dragon. That's quite a bit of circumventing things.

 

Let's be realistic: If this suggestion comes to pass as is, access to extra CBs will be limited, and we can raise a lot of dragons during the event week. Like 8 for day 1, 3 and 5 each. Plus 6 for day 7 (because we're all going to get our fill of the new holiday). That's 30 extras - which is a lot.

 

So access will (probably) have to be further limited. There are two ways to do that: Higher prices or a shorter amount of time to buy them. What would you rather have? A 3 day period, where holidays cost up to 300 shards, allowing you to grab quite a number of them, or a 7 day period where a holiday eggs cost 800+ shards, allowing you to grab very few? Personally, I'd chose the former. But that's probably just me.

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Re new users: If they want to spend them is their own decision.

 

Having them is not as much of an issue if the prices are at 100 per egg.

Very new users wouldn't necessarily focus on specific breeds anyway - they would just hunt and grab the first few they see, until their 4 slots are full.

Slightly less new users would already have a couple of shards to use, if they wanted to.

 

I think this is mostly an issue for users who have been here for one, maybe two holidays (possibly missed some in between), but didn't have the chance to grab what they needed yet. And THOSE users probably have the shards to buy these eggs with.

Edited by Ruby Eyes

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I think new users are a nonissue regardless. It's not like the holiday biome doesn't present the same problem in a different way: with half the egg slots of older users.

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I see this suggestion coming down into one of three scenarios:

 

Scenario A, where you can buy holidays, but only up to the limit of two. It helps any but the newest players who are frustrated at not finding the specific holiday they need in cave. Doesn’t help anyone else. Only marginally useful.

 

Scenario B, where you can buy any amount of holidays. It helps any but the newest players get as many CB holidays as they like, without making things harder to get for others.

 

Scenario C, where holidays being added to the market is matched with unlimited holiday grabbing from the biomes. Now people have the choice to hunt, and if it’s too frustrating, they have the market to turn back to. 

 

Scenario C is by far my favorite. Makes Valentines and Christmas as fun and flexible as Halloween while adding a safety net for those with limited time or catching ability. No, having a market doesn’t help people who joined within the last week (which is already a very small subset of users), but as Ruby Eyes says, EVERYTHING is new to newbies and they’ll probably be content with the plenty of random CBs they’ll grab. A lot of newbies don’t even realize holiday events are a thing and spend the week getting normal dragons. Even if, IF we still felt the need to limit everyone else for the sake of extremely new players, with the biomes moving faster as people can take things, they might stand a better chance of getting the oldest holidays than they do in the stagnated biomes of now. As for the other thing of being able to buy too many holidays too easily—even at a mere 100 a pop, you’d be spending a week of effort per egg. So maybe you could buy 30 holidays with a snap of your fingers, but you’d be throwing away over half a year of shard collecting in doing so. If people really want to do that instead of take the probably five minutes requisite to catch most of the holidays they need, that’s their call, not ours. 

 

Edit: brain works faster than fingers, fixed a few word omissions

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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3 hours ago, purplehaze said:

I support having the eggs available in the market for those who are having trouble catching them in the biome, but I don't think the market should be used to bypass limits. If there has to be a limit, then I think it should apply to eggs from all sources. Otherwise it seems unfair.

 

Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. Please give us another way to catch these eggs since the Holiday biome can back up with species that aren't as popular as Hollies. This is a good way to get them without breaking the limits too (I won't get into lifting limits since that's a separate discussion).

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1 minute ago, purpledragonclaw said:

This is a good way to get them without breaking the limits too (I won't get into lifting limits since that's a separate discussion).

This, so very, very much. I get that people are upset that TJ doesn't want to raise the CB limits any time soon, but trying to get him to do so through a back door right now probably isn't going to work, either. Let's do this one step at a time - and that very first step is adding holidays to the market (when they're naturally available).

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1 hour ago, Keileon said:

The more I think about it, the more I feel that "two from the cave, two from the market" is the way to go here. That way it doesn't provide any advantages that a little bit of saving up can't provide, it effectively increases the CB holiday limit, and it still encourages people to hunt.

 

I like this. It makes sense, sticks with currently limits (though modified a bit), doesn't totally negate cave limits... I like it.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Ashywolf said:

I have mixed feelings about this mostly because I don't think new users either have enough shards, want to spend shards, or have the need to start targeting rarer holidays as a "new" user.  Would a larger number of eggs in the holiday biome be a better solution, since it spreads out the competition?

 

One of the big issues I've seen in the holiday biome is that it's not just about competition, it's about the biome *moving*. Or not moving, that is. No one can compete for the more wanted breeds in the first place if they are all stuck behind breeds no one is picking up. I'm not sure more eggs in the biome would do anything to help that.

 

edit:

15 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

I see this suggestion coming down into one of three scenarios:

 

Scenario A, where you can buy holidays, but only up to the limit of two. It helps any but the newest players who are frustrated at not finding the specific holiday they need in cave. Doesn’t help anyone else. Only marginally useful.

 

Scenario B, where you can buy any amount of holidays. It helps any but the newest players get as many CB holidays as they like, without making things harder to get for others.

 

Scenario C, where holidays being added to the market is matched with unlimited holiday grabbing from the biomes. Now people have the choice to hunt, and if it’s too frustrating, they have the market to turn back to. 

 

Scenario C is by far my favorite. Makes Valentines and Christmas as fun and flexible as Halloween while adding a safety net for those with limited time or catching ability. No, having a market doesn’t help people who joined within the last week (which is already a very small subset of users), but as Ruby Eyes says, EVERYTHING is new to newbies and they’ll probably be content with the plenty of random CBs they’ll grab. A lot of newbies don’t even realize holiday events are a thing and spend the week getting normal dragons. Even if, IF we still felt the need to limit everyone else for the sake of extremely new players, with the biomes moving faster as people can take things, they might stand a better chance of getting the oldest holidays than they do in the stagnated biomes of now. As for the other thing of being able to buy too many holidays too easily—even at a mere 100 a pop, you’d be spending a week of effort per egg. So maybe you could buy 30 holidays with a snap of your fingers, but you’d be throwing away over half a year of shard collecting in doing so. If people really want to do that instead of take the probably five minutes requisite to catch most of the holidays they need, that’s their call, not ours. 

 

Edit: brain works faster than fingers, fixed a few word omissions

 

How about Scenario D : Have the same limit on the Market as we do in the cave, just separate the two. Like Keileon mentioned. Keep the biome limit, add a limit to Market. That way *everyone* is benefited, because *everyone* except the newest-of-new will be able to get more then we currently have, and no one will be disadvantaged by not having the shards to get tons and tons, and no one will have advantages by getting tons and tons, and it won't destroy the limits that I believe are a fairly important part of this game.

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22 hours ago, TJ09 said:

And what if eggs were added but the limits still preserved?

 

Ignoring cave limits from market purchases goes against the philosophy that buying from the market should never be better than hunting in the cave, and keeping them around doesn't hurt the stated purpose of making it easier for new users/those with time constraints/etc to catch up.

What about the opposite? You can buy from the market up until you reach the two-limit (or four, six, whatever-limit). Then after, you need to catch eggs from the biome to exceed the two-limit. At this point it's the best of both worlds. Busy people buy theirs easily, people who want more catch more. And the cave is still better than the market, since the cave is unlimited.

 

Alternatively, having to reach the two-limit (or just catch one of the breed) of a breed before being able to buy them from the market. That way also makes the cave better than the market.

 

Basically what I'm aiming for here is to catch the best of both worlds. I understand being too busy around holidays to compete for dragons in a game, but I also understand wanting to break out of this two-limit. I don't really understand why it has to be so black and white when it comes to limits vs. no limits. Would I prefer for it to be black and white? Definitely. I want unlimited holidays in the biome. But at the same time, other people want it black and white from an opinion different than mine, which is no change to the current limit system. Both sides need to compromise at this point, so I'm really asking for everyone to try your best at reaching a compromise. That way, we won't make everyone on one side happy and everyone on one side unhappy, which is what's happening with the current limits. Instead, a compromise will allow the most amount of people to be happy from both sides. Keep in mind I say the most amount of people, not everyone. You can't make everyone happy. But you can go for making the most people possible happy. That's another thing we're trying to be too black and white on; if changing the system makes everyone happy, then do it. But the minute one person says they don't want a particular change then bam, nope, we can't do changes. I can't stress this enough; stop making everything about this so black and white.

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@HeatherMarie if I play for a year and save all my shards, do I not have the right to buy tons and tons of holidays with said shards, if I choose too?

 

Should we clear out shard counts every year, to make things fair? Should we periodically strip metals off scrolls, to keep things fair?

 

No, because it’s silly to do so. Anyone who wants CB Holidays has the same chance to save up and buy them with time as everyone else. Calling it “unfair” for people to have been around longer than others and thus saved more shards is wrong. Do you want to buy 30 CB Holidays, but you’ve only been here ten weeks? Ok—save your shards and buy 30 next year, exactly like the older players did before you.

 

And if Scenario C went into play then even newer players would have plenty of CBs available anyway.

 

 

 

Honestly all this back and forth over the terms is dodging the main point, which is: do you like how Halloween works? I do. It works fine and things are by and large easy to find. I found multiple abandoned CBs in the AP from the oldest breeds to newest. They were trading cheaply. I didn’t even touch the holiday biomes because I had plenty already. It would be even easier with holidays in the market. Since it works so well, and lets people collect all they like... I want that formula for the other holidays, too.

 

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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I still think if TJ's so concerned that the numbers for the 'older' breeds haven't caught up.. keep a limit on hollies, maybe yules, for another year or two, and unlimit the breeds that are seen as more commonly distributed. In addition to having holidays in the market, then everyone wins.

 

I also have to agree with @KrazyKarp Maybe limit the market ones and make the cave the free for all? Then people can't complain the market takes all challenge out of the game. It's just there to help people get started, and any extras would be on them to collect.

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Admittedly I haven’t bothered hunting the holiday biomes, but is it REALLY that hard? I figured with most breeds it’s about as difficult as shooting fish in a barrel. Even if it was a bit tricky to get some things (I know hollies last year were a bit tricky), it should get easier with every year.

 

I don’t see the point in limiting the market so it’s not “too easy” when catching most holidays is probably equally easy. I’ll also say again; if someone wants to buy 30 holidays, they are spending 30 weeks of shards. Over half a year of shards on things that are probably not that hard to catch. If people want to do that, I think it’s wrong to have the market essentially smack them on the hand and call them lazy. Their shards, their decision. Imagine going to the grocery store and being told you can’t spend the money you saved on meat until you spend a few days trying to catch a deer.

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The reason I'd side with a limited market is because it's not like getting shards is really hard or anything. Takes time to save up, but only because of the weekly limit. The action itself is I'd say it's easier than catching. I was able to catch my hollies last year, but it definitely took more time than it would take me to earn 100 shards.

Although I will admit TJ probably doesn't like complicating things- but considering he was worried about prizes in the market affecting ratios, I could see someone buying 30 hollies skewing the ratios as well.

 

Preferably I would like to be able to buy whatever I want in whatever amount, but if it's going to affect ratios that much it might not fly.

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21 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

 considering he was worried about prizes in the market affecting ratios, I could see someone buying 30 hollies skewing the ratios as well.

uh, I don't believe I ever said that.

 

Quote

The market was designed as a supplement specifically for the randomness of catching eggs in the cave, and so I don't really plan to add anything not available in the cave to the market.

 

The market hasn't even been around long enough to see what its real impact is on e.g. rarer eggs that people haven't even gotten a chance to afford yet. Adding something even rarer than that seems a bit hasty.

 

You might be misinterpreting the part about rares. It's talking more about prices and how long it takes to afford them, how people feel about saving for that long, etc.

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@TJ09 Oh, I got the wrong idea from it. I heard people saying their prizes breed bad so I thought ratios was what you meant.

So it's not exactly the number that people would buy that would be the issue. Forgive me for misinterpreting.

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Adding holidays to the market with a market limit of 2 for a total of four seems to cover everything - BUT - would you use that ? I wouldn't. I am saving for other, more important to me, stuff. So it shouldn't affect the game significantly.

 

I'd much rather see two for the first year, two more from the holiday biome in subsequent years for a max of four.

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6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Adding holidays to the market with a market limit of 2 for a total of four seems to cover everything - BUT - would you use that ? I wouldn't. I am saving for other, more important to me, stuff. So it shouldn't affect the game significantly.

 

I'd much rather see two for the first year, two more from the holiday biome in subsequent years for a max of four.

Everyone plays differently. I'd definitely use that. Not everyone is saving up for that elusive Gold or for-some-reason-more-expensive Magma, and even if they are, the chance to spend a week or two of Shards to get an extra Holiday CB might appeal to them.

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I probably wouldn't be willing to spend my shards on holidays this year, but next year is a distinct possibility. Because I'm really afraid that gold prices will go through the roof once the first people will buy them en mass.

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7 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Adding holidays to the market with a market limit of 2 for a total of four seems to cover everything - BUT - would you use that ? I wouldn't. I am saving for other, more important to me, stuff. So it shouldn't affect the game significantly.

 

I'd much rather see two for the first year, two more from the holiday biome in subsequent years for a max of four.

 

See, I might actually use that, because I've been floundering on what I should spend my shards on. For someone who doesn't care about CB-ness, but who often has a hard time getting certain holiday breeds in *general*, holidays would be about the only thing in the market that I'd actually want. I feel it'd be stupid to use shards on unbreedables, which I can catch myself, or on CB rares that I don't really care about... But holidays that I can't even find in the AP? Sure. 

 

Then again, I don't care enough about being able to buy holidays that I would ever support unlimited. And I honestly don't care about the reasons or arguments 'for' unlimited, I simply don't believe v-day and holiday CBs should be unlimited. Period. Regardless of 'stress' or lack of or anything else.

Edited by HeatherMarie

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