Raise CB Holiday limit to 4

[Justie]

I'd love to see the Holiday/Valentine limits go to 4. I think it would be a bit too frenetic if all these dragons were unlimited, which I find overwhelming with just one Halloween a year.  

 

But I feel very frustrated with the 2 egg limit. In fact, I usually don't bother doing much of anything for the other seasons, because there seems so little to actually do. It might be better this year, seeing I now have multiple breeds to manage. 

 

Seems to me, though, that 4 is 'just right'.

[olympe]

14 hours ago, TJ09 said:

i don't plan on doing anything like this this year since we've only had one year of event biomes. With that one set of datapoints, things still have not caught up (based on the current distribution of CB Holidays among active users, there's going to be a much higher demand for older holiday dragons than newer ones--higher than just "new people need to catch up" can explain). Until things even out, I don't think doubling the potential demand for those already hard-to-get eggs is the right thing to do.

That's actually a very good and very valid point - and one that does leave us with hope for later years. After all, DC has never been about instant gratification...  

[Dragon_Arbock]

So should this topic be brought up again after christmas or next valentines?

I do think there's things that could be done right now though to deal with the discrepancy between old and new breeds..

option a) put all holidays in the market as well

option b) let people grab 4 of the newer breeds this year, but don't raise the holly/yulebuck limit

option c) code the cave to drop more of the older breeds and less of the newer breeds

 

The idea that it should be 'challenging' is I think at odds with the idea of the holidays being stress free as possible, so.. I don't see a need to keep things as challenging as they were last year for people trying to grab hollies- and I got my hollies, so don't think I'm looking for an easier time for myself.

[Cinspawn]

I like option "b" and "c" (and actually "a" too I just probably wouldn't use it myself because I prefer cave eggs to market eggs) 

 

@TJ09 was your last message in the 'lift holiday limits' thread directed to the 'make all holidays completely unlimited idea' only, or also to the idea of gradually allowing more CB slots per breed? Because I wasn't sure if you specifically disliked that idea too.

 

I feel like the gradual slots thing would keep stress minimized (you can only get two this year anyway, then you're done!) it would help newbies catch up... And still allow us, eventually, more CB slots and thus more fun/things to do with holiday dragons. I feel like this would solve all problems. 

 

So to summarize, I think a gradual release of more CB slots per breed would cause the most benefits to every group of people. 

Whether it's locking hollies/yules to 2 CB slots for a year and the rest to 4 (or more), or whether it's locking all current breeds to 4 (or more) and giving new breeds a one year 2 CB slots restriction. Or both! 

 

(I'm speaking in general, I don't mean that this HAS to be implemented this year already) 

[Keileon]

Now that we're safely out of the holiday season and there's plenty of time before the next one, I figured it was as good a time as any to bump this.

 

If TJ says there's still not enough data or something I'm content to wait for next year.

[StormBirdRising]

I think it would be phenomenal if we could have 4 CB holidays from each year for every holiday season. So many great things have been happening in the Cave: the ability to win a CB prize, which I thought could never happen and also being able to get past holiday dragon CBs, which I also thought would never happen.

[cbussiere]

Now that all breeds drop every year, the two dragon limit seems very arbitrary and only poses restrictions to breeding and trading. I am strongly in favor of this.

High demand for old breeds does not seem like a large problem to me. They're still far more plentiful than they were before the Holiday biome, and users have more than one year to obtain them. Presumably more people are acquiring older Holiday dragons than are joining every year, so demand will balance out over time, even if it takes a few years for their population to be equal to the newer breeds. But if it's a prohibitive concern, the simplest solution seems to be keeping the CB limit at 2 for old breeds (and possibly newly-released breeds).

[Aalbiel]

I am in favour for 2 reasons.

 

- A personal one relating to my own sprite collecting goals. As it stands today it is simply impossible to have all existing sprites on your scroll, since every breed has 3+ sprites. So on every holiday, I can have an adult and choose a hatchie stage to freeze but I cannot have the 3rd sprite until a full year after, when there will be another breed that will itself be incomplete. I think for a sprite collecting site it's a little absurd to have it be functionally impossible to have all available sprites on your scroll.

 

- I understand the logic behind a limited amount of CBs but it seems to me 4 CBs does not go against that logic. It is still a low amount which will leave enough for everyone and stay in the spirit of sharing etc while still letting people have all sprites and/or have more CBs to breed the next year/with non holiday dragons during the year and/or get more of a head-start on holiday lineages or goals.

 

 

I don't really see any cons? It's not like suddenly making CBs unlimited...

[MIGOR]

Plz, increase the number of Valentine and Christmas dragons to 4 So many lines to breed.

Edited June 11, 2019 by MIGOR

[FeatheryWings]

My opinion is a bit different about this. I personally think that 2 is a nice limit because everyone can own a CB sprite of each breed this way (except for frozen hatchlings) and it also stays true to the spirit of the holiday as you need to gift and share with other people to build up a lineage that you want to. If we had 4 CB limits we could have directly made a 4G line (which would take 3 years of holiday breedings) all by ourselves and it really kills the spirit in my opinion. In my opinion the ideal would actually be to be limited with 1 dragon tbh, as it would make your lines more dependent on others' breedings. But Aegis dragon is a thing and only being able to have Enraged or Pacified at the same time would suck.

 

The ideal would be to have frozen hatchlings not count towards limits. Afterall, what is the purpose of it anyway? You can not breed your frozen hatchlings and therefore it doesn't have anything to do with the holiday spirit either. And this way everyone could have one of each sprite on their scroll too. I think focusing on the frozen hatchlings would be more realistic than a raise of limits, as hatchlings can't breed and wouldn't affect the gifting/sharing/acquiring from someone else aspect of the holidays by itself drastically.

[olympe]

@FeatheryWings I think your logic is flawed in both points.

Re sharing/gifting: While higher limits mean that we can breed higher generations without help from others, it has been shown (from various player comments) that people are way more willing to gift bred Halloween dragons or breed them on request than either Winter holiday or V-Day dragons. Because if you have more of them, you can breed more (and still keep as many as you see fit). As a matter of fact, I see the following tendency for dragons with a CB limit: If you want to create a lineage with them and need 2nd gen holidays beyond what you can breed, you offer to do a 2nd gen swap. With someone else who can breed 2nd gens. Players who can't deliver that are at a disadvantage. Really, it's the same with Prize dragons - how many 2nd gen Prize eggs do you see go for "regular" stuff, and how many for exclusive stuff (other 2nd gen Prize eggs, 2nd gen Spriter's Alt babies)? In other words: Dragons with a CB limit may enforce cooperation, but they also lead to elitist trading that excludes parts of the player base. Which is definitely not what either Winter Holiday I've ever heard of is about, and I'm pretty sure that that's also not what V-Day is about.

 

Re frozens: Why do you want to exclude people who prefer adults from raised limits? This seems discriminating to me. You can always freeze lineaged hatchlings to create "families". Plus, even a frozen hatchling once was an egg that could have gone to someone else who hasn't reached their limit yet.

[Nightwalkerkey]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

@FeatheryWings I think your logic is flawed in both points.

Re sharing/gifting: While higher limits mean that we can breed higher generations without help from others, it has been shown (from various player comments) that people are way more willing to gift bred Halloween dragons or breed them on request than either Winter holiday or V-Day dragons. Because if you have more of them, you can breed more (and still keep as many as you see fit). As a matter of fact, I see the following tendency for dragons with a CB limit: If you want to create a lineage with them and need 2nd gen holidays beyond what you can breed, you offer to do a 2nd gen swap. With someone else who can breed 2nd gens. Players who can't deliver that are at a disadvantage. Really, it's the same with Prize dragons - how many 2nd gen Prize eggs do you see go for "regular" stuff, and how many for exclusive stuff (other 2nd gen Prize eggs, 2nd gen Spriter's Alt babies)? In other words: Dragons with a CB limit may enforce cooperation, but they also lead to elitist trading that excludes parts of the player base. Which is definitely not what either Winter Holiday I've ever heard of is about, and I'm pretty sure that that's also not what V-Day is about.

I definitely have to agree here all the way!
I'd love to see the limits go to 4, but will be patient as it sounds like TJ might do it in the future, whether this or next or next year

[FeatheryWings]

@ olympe  I mean, I think it is rather a matter of opinions than logic. I like the way that cooperation is enforced. Not all dragons are meant for hoarding and I think it is okay this way. As you put it too, there are some rare dragons that most people can't hoard like golds. I see the holidays somewhat like a very rare breed but it is so for "everyone" unlike golds with which some people who are very good at catching them or have a prize or who can make NDs can hoard while some players can not. 

 

About frozen hatchlings, why would I want to exclude people who prefer adults at all? I don't even freeze hatchies except for 1 or 2 vampires. It is not discriminating, if there is an easier goal which you can achieve without affecting many other stuff, you achieve that goal first. People can not have all the sprites right now, so it would be a nice and logical way of handling a problem. The part about always being able to freeze a high gen hatchling, well people mostly do prefer CB over high gens. You can also have many adult sprites if they are high gen regardless of the limits. I know that it is not the same thing because hatchies do not breed and you can't use them to make lineages but everything is about preferences if you sum it. People prefer to create more high gen lines with their cb adults or people prefer to keep CB frozen hatchies. I just think that trying to fulfill the easier and less non-controversial steps first is always the best.

[mainstage]

I hope this gets implemented. It has my support!

[DragonLady86]

15 hours ago, FeatheryWings said:

My opinion is a bit different about this. I personally think that 2 is a nice limit because everyone can own a CB sprite of each breed this way (except for frozen hatchlings) and it also stays true to the spirit of the holiday as you need to gift and share with other people to build up a lineage that you want to. If we had 4 CB limits we could have directly made a 4G line (which would take 3 years of holiday breedings) all by ourselves and it really kills the spirit in my opinion. In my opinion the ideal would actually be to be limited with 1 dragon tbh, as it would make your lines more dependent on others' breedings. But Aegis dragon is a thing and only being able to have Enraged or Pacified at the same time would suck.

 

 

This is the supposed "logic" behind the limits.  "If everyone only gets one, there are more available to everyone else" and yet, the cave will generate as many eggs as people can pick up, Halloween proves this.  So one person having more does not in fact exclude someone else.  as for the trading and working together, it's a nice idea in theory, but in practice the opposite has happened and continues to do so.  Everyone wants to work on their lineage, not help others with one.   And it only gets worse the more different dragons we have as you now have to choose which of your own to breed because you can not do all of them. At Halloween, you can do both.  but not Christmas or Valentines day.  (for the record Hollies were at a limit of one when they were released the first time, and TJ upped that to two on v-day for the valentines, because 1 wasn't enough) 

 

Limits should be upped, or done away with all together.  it would take a couple years to fully balance out, I think given the narrow window of catching and breeding, but they would become much more friendly holidays and the community would be better for it.  finding a halloween lineage, is as easy as asking/posting in your sig that your looking for something.  because someone will have extras they don't mind breeding.  Why shouldn't all holidays be that way?  It's stressful enough just getting on and getting the new eggs during that time of year.  finding a breeder shouldn't add to it.

[osean]

I don’t see the limits promote sharing in the least. For example I made trades for CB golds in exchange for 2G offspring from my valentine dragons. That was 8 total 2G valentine dragons that went to the highest bidder. The limits ensure that those breedings go to yourself or to those who have CB prizes and or can catch CB metallics. I don’t really work on holiday lineages myself unless they are prize lines but of course if someone is going to offer CB metallics or 2G prizes in exchange for my offspring I will jump on it.  

[olympe]

@FeatheryWings While limits enforce cooperation between players, it does so at the expense of those who don't have the necessary CBs. Because many players will only cooperate if they get something of equal value in return. At least a whole lot of them.

 

15 hours ago, FeatheryWings said:

About frozen hatchlings, why would I want to exclude people who prefer adults at all? [...]  It is not discriminating, if there is an easier goal which you can achieve without affecting many other stuff, you achieve that goal first. People can not have all the sprites right now, so it would be a nice and logical way of handling a problem. The part about always being able to freeze a high gen hatchling, well people mostly do prefer CB over high gens. You can also have many adult sprites if they are high gen regardless of the limits. I know that it is not the same thing because hatchies do not breed and you can't use them to make lineages but everything is about preferences if you sum it. People prefer to create more high gen lines with their cb adults or people prefer to keep CB frozen hatchies. I just think that trying to fulfill the easier and less non-controversial steps first is always the best.

That's the question of all questions here. Why do you?

Up to now, DC had the very hard rule: Your scroll/your dragon, your call. Now, you want to change that, "You can have this egg, but only if you do XYZ to it." That's a major change to the chore mechanics and philosophy of DC right there. With this kind of change, you're affecting pretty much everything on DC because you're setting a precedent - and I'll give you controversy for it right here. (And I'm 100% sure there are others who will, too.) Also, you can have all the sprites right now - if you count by merely sprites. While it is true that people prefer CB over high-gen, this is especially true for adults. Because hatchlings don't breed, their lineage doesn't really matter. 

[Fuzzbucket]

3 minutes ago, olympe said:

@FeatheryWings While limits enforce cooperation between players, it does so at the expense of those who don't have the necessary CBs. Because many players will only cooperate if they get something of equal value in return. At least a whole lot of them.

 

That's the question of all questions here. Why do you?

Up to now, DC had the very hard rule: Your scroll/your dragon, your call. Now, you want to change that, "You can have this egg, but only if you do XYZ to it." That's a major change to the chore mechanics and philosophy of DC right there. With this kind of change, you're affecting pretty much everything on DC because you're setting a precedent - and I'll give you controversy for it right here. (And I'm 100% sure there are others who will, too.) Also, you can have all the sprites right now - if you count by merely sprites. While it is true that people prefer CB over high-gen, this is especially true for adults. Because hatchlings don't breed, their lineage doesn't really matter. 

 

Yes indeed. And I agree - my scroll, my dragons. And I only ever freeze CBs if I need a slot in a hurry. Any old thing will do for freezing.

[Aalbiel]

4 hours ago, olympe said:

 Also, you can have all the sprites right now - if you count by merely sprites. While it is true that people prefer CB over high-gen, this is especially true for adults. Because hatchlings don't breed, their lineage doesn't really matter. 

 

You can't have all the sprites right now. With a 2 CB Holiday limit, for the last Valentine's and the last Christmas dragons, you can only have 2/3 sprites. Of course, you can catch up the next year, but then there will be two new breeds where you can once again only get 2/3 sprites. So even if you've collected every single other sprite on the game (I'm getting pretty close, zombies giving me a bit of trouble but at least it's possible to get them with enough time/effort), you will always and forever be missing 2 sprites from your scroll. 

[olympe]

18 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

 

You can't have all the sprites right now. With a 2 CB Holiday limit, for the last Valentine's and the last Christmas dragons, you can only have 2/3 sprites. Of course, you can catch up the next year, but then there will be two new breeds where you can once again only get 2/3 sprites. So even if you've collected every single other sprite on the game (I'm getting pretty close, zombies giving me a bit of trouble but at least it's possible to get them with enough time/effort), you will always and forever be missing 2 sprites from your scroll. 

Well, you can have them all eventually. And, with a limit of 4, you can have them all at once. It doesn't need to be a +1 or +2 for frozen hatchlings only.

[HeatherMarie]

11 hours ago, olympe said:

 

That's the question of all questions here. Why do you?

Up to now, DC had the very hard rule: Your scroll/your dragon, your call. Now, you want to change that, "You can have this egg, but only if you do XYZ to it." That's a major change to the chore mechanics and philosophy of DC right there. With this kind of change, you're affecting pretty much everything on DC because you're setting a precedent - and I'll give you controversy for it right here. (And I'm 100% sure there are others who will, too.) Also, you can have all the sprites right now - if you count by merely sprites. While it is true that people prefer CB over high-gen, this is especially true for adults. Because hatchlings don't breed, their lineage doesn't really matter. 

 

100% agree. Not counting frozen hatchlings towards CB limits really does change DC in a very significant way. It's saying that frozen hatchlings shouldn't 'count', because.... why? Because they aren't adults? But that's your choice. You choose to freeze it at that stage. You have two CBs, what you choose to do with them doesn't matter, it's still two CBs on your scroll. Should frozen hatchlings not 'count' in our total scroll count either?? 'Cause I have over 1,100 frozen hatchlings... Should my 'grown dragons' count be cut by that much because frozen hatchlings somehow shouldn't count in number calculations? It makes no sense. 

[Aalbiel]

On 6/12/2019 at 9:36 PM, olympe said:

Well, you can have them all eventually. And, with a limit of 4, you can have them all at once. It doesn't need to be a +1 or +2 for frozen hatchlings only.

 

You can never have them all unless one year there isn't a new breed, is my point.

 

I do completely agree that with a limit of 4 you could have them all at once and that would be wonderful. I don't really care if the limit is 4 or raised to infinity like some are suggesting, I'm here with the low bar of "2 CBs is too low, raise it please" ^^

[HPhaeton]

Yes please to raising the Holiday CB limit. Four is a good number for a start.

[Haloclimb]

Apologies if this has already been suggested, but: What if you changed the limit to 2 CB's per year rather than 2 CB's total? That way you still ensure that newbies can catch the holiday eggs they want, while allowing players to catch as many CB's as they like- just over a couple years instead of in one season.

[Guillotine]

TJ nixed the idea in the past, which is a shame because I still think it's th best option.