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angelicdragonpuppy

Yearly Suggestion Check-ins by TJ

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Amazingly, as the adage goes, "ask and you shall receive." I don't necessarily agree with all of TJ's decisions or brief elaborations (or lack thereof) but I at least am definitely happy to be getting some closure and a definitive answer rather than an ambiguous silence.

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Well, a lot of threads getting closed- but I'm sure some of the more contentious issues will only be brought up again. That's how it always goes.

 

Edit: Yep. Considering what's just been closed, and again with no reason why it could only be one or the other.. That's not gonna go over well.

Edited by Dragon_Arbock

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Sigh.

 

So unlimited Vals/Xmas is too stressful... even though the suggestion of having them in market + an original year release limit would negate that, because people already considered the stress it might cause. Even though many old holidays sit and don’t get claimed. Even though just the simple act of raising to a limit of 4 breaks nothing.

 

Breeding results are “fine” even though dozens have posted results of common x slightly more common pairings not cooperating for half a year.

 

No GoN limit raise because there’s no reason to raise them, even though people pointed out that you can’t get a full set (M/F/S2/S1), can’t make many lines with just one adult of each gender, and you know, just would enjoy more while it wouldn’t hurt anyone.

 

Meh.

 

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I'm just so glad that this has happened. I don't even care that a few of my favorite suggestions got closed (well, I don't care *much*) because I'm just happy to have actual answers! Do I agree with all TJ's reasons/responses, definitely not, but I can totally respect them now that I know them!

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Kinda feeling as angelic is here, it's great and all to have replies, but most of them are just. Hm. Possibly what is most frustrating is how it feels like most of them were closed without chance for rebuttal or further discussion. Just, "nope. This is how it is." We barely got answers and several points in closed threads went unanswered. It stings a little to feel like he didn't even get past the OP in some of these suggestions, with meaningful discussion, alternative proposals, and minor tweaks getting totally swept under the rug. Maybe we should have been a little more careful what we wished for when we said "even just a hard yes or no would be preferable to nothing" because seeing some of these threads die with so little elaboration is extremely disheartening and makes it feel like we aren't really being heard.

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Something like “no because this is too much work to code for little payoff” or “this dragon was never meant to breed this way” or “this would make rares too common”—ok.

 

But ignoring things like how raised holiday limits could be made stress-free, or saying breeding results look “fine” when people have reported anything but for years, or not raising GoN limits because there’s “no reason” when reasons were given...

 

I feel you as well @Nove NuVonde

 

Even in the add prizes to market thing, where a valid point was made that we haven’t even seen how it’ll effect gold/silver values yet—it makes more sense to me, but it still feels disappointing because Prize availability has been raised as an issue for yearsss. So yes, maybe kicking them into the market tomorrow isn’t wise, but it still feels like the real issue people have (prizes being crazy unobtainable where lineage making is concerned) is yet again being ignored.

 

Gahhhhfksjdj ;____;

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35 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Something like “no because this is too much work to code for little payoff” or “this dragon was never meant to breed this way” or “this would make rares too common”—ok.

 

But ignoring things like how raised holiday limits could be made stress-free, or saying breeding results look “fine” when people have reported anything but for years, or not raising GoN limits because there’s “no reason” when reasons were given...

 

I feel you as well @Nove NuVonde

 

Even in the add prizes to market thing, where a valid point was made that we haven’t even seen how it’ll effect gold/silver values yet—it makes more sense to me, but it still feels disappointing because Prize availability has been raised as an issue for yearsss. So yes, maybe kicking them into the market tomorrow isn’t wise, but it still feels like the real issue people have (prizes being crazy unobtainable where lineage making is concerned) is yet again being ignored.

 

Gahhhhfksjdj ;____;

Just a few things I wanna point out, if I'm wrong and misinterpreting TJ then please, TJ, feel free to correct me:

 

TJ has replied to what the OPs in each thread have suggested. For the holiday limit thread, despite various proposals involving lifting and not lifting limits, that thread was created with the purpose of lifting limits. It sounds to me like raising but keeping the limits is still something that could happen, as he never mentioned anything about that, since that wasn't the purpose of that thread. This is also the case with the GoN limit lifting thread. While his post there is vaguer than in the holiday limit lifting thread, it's reasonable to interpret it as his response to just lifting limits based off of his responses to other threads. (I would be more than happy if someone created threads about simply raising the limits on holidays and GoNs, as I am a supporter of no limits, but now see we need to move down to the next best thing)

 

Also, in the Prizes in the market thread, he specifically referred to the market That doesn't mean we can't suggest other ways to make CB Prizes more accessible. It seems that even if other ways make them far more common, changing Prize rarity was not a factor in shooting down the idea. (Also would be more than happy if someone came up with ideas on how CB Prizes could be more obtainable)

 

Some things I do wish he clarified, such as why the idea of just adding old CBs to the market for "unlimited" CBs wouldn't work. So perhaps the fact that he didn't refer to things actually relating to the original suggestions weakens my points here in this post, but I still believe my points hold some weight.

 

As sort of a closing point that isn't related to my reply to ADP: We wanted communication from TJ, and we got it this time. I don't intend this to be rude at all, there's no harm in having a weakness in life, I just want to point out that TJ still struggles with the communication aspect of being administrator. He has improved in communicating with us, though. While I think we shouldn't have to ask for his communication on suggestions, I think it's also good that he responded to us on this suggestion and established more communication on what he wants and does not want on the site. I just hope he realizes now that he should communicate with us more on suggestions.

Edited by KrazyKarp

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This is how I've been looking at it. TJ addressed the intended purpose of each suggestion; personally while I disagree with some of his stances I find that they are still valid stances to take.

 

It seemed like he wasn't shutting down the concept without explanation. He left the other proposed suggestions open for debate in threads made for the purpose *of* those suggestions-- if he went into each thread and addressed every solution that got brought up it'd have gotten harder for him to keep track of, which I feel is part of why there's not as much communication. It's not a bad thing that we take the original idea and suggest ways to do it differently, but ultimately it distracts from the original idea in and of itself.

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But that that point though- what is the point of the thread, if he's not really reading it? Might as well PM him suggestions directly, not that I think he'd either read or appreciate that. It does seem that it's not even so much community consensus he cares about, just if he thinks it's a good idea or not.

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3 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

But that that point though- what is the point of the thread, if he's not really reading it? Might as well PM him suggestions directly, not that I think he'd either read or appreciate that. It does seem that it's not even so much community consensus he cares about, just if he thinks it's a good idea or not.

In the process of game development, there are going to be a lot of points where the playerbase wants something that isn't good for the health or design of the game. It would be good if he elaborated on his stance, but the position of "it's not a good idea even if the players want it" isn't in and of itself a bad one.

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Doesn't really change that there's no point to THREADS or even this section at all if all he does is read the OP before closing a suggestion without giving details on why.
 

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It's definitely better that he closed them if he's never planning to think about them again no matter what people say. It saves everyone the time and effort of posting things that will not serve any purpose.

 

I'm starting to get the hint that the entire suggestions thread is pretty much like that. If someone makes a suggestion, there's no purpose to spending 10 minutes of my life adding anything to it or additionally justifying it or suggesting a modification to it in the comments. The original suggestion will eventually be considered by TJ or rejected by TJ, and he's not going to go reading through 20 pages of comments before he does, and it really isn't going to make any difference to the OP whether people who have no say in the matter think they have a cool idea or not.There isn't such thing as consensus on DC. We need to just take it for what it is and stop spending energy trying to articulate our points of view into the ether.

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Honestly, I feel like this is a bit of a hint that OPs need to take more responsibilities for their threads and keep the OP updated instead of posting an idea and vanishing. That way, if TJ does communicate, he's responding to the whole thread and all the discussion in it rather than to just the usually-outdated first post. 

 

It took me three days to read through all eighteen pages of the Add CB Prizes to the Market thread, and that was when I was on break and had plenty of free time. And that was just one thread. We cannot expect TJ to comb through all the pages of every suggestion, especially not all the super-active ones- and even if he did, we could hardly expect him to be able to thoughtfully address the five hundred variations of the suggestion that pop up in the thread. That's asking too much of him. If we want him to respond to the thread's consensus, rather than its first post, then it's up to the OP to keep the first post up to date, not up to TJ to read the whole thread.

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2 hours ago, tjekan said:

It's definitely better that he closed them if he's never planning to think about them again no matter what people say. It saves everyone the time and effort of posting things that will not serve any purpose.

 

It's actually more the opposite. To use the "prizes in the market" thread as an example, I commented quite early that it was against one of the core philosophies of the market so it was unlikely to happen. I gave it several months of following the actual discussion as it happened, which is certainly not "never going to think about it again," but it didn't do anything to change my mind and barely even touched on the points I made, so I've finally just closed it.

 

If I don't close a thread, it's because I explicitly want to see where it goes. I definitely could chime in more, but it's incorrect to conflate silence with lack of attention. The general consensus I'm seeing is that people would rather I just shut things down, though, rather than wait and see if anything useful comes of it, so I guess that's what I'll try to do more.

 

2 hours ago, Sylph264 said:

It took me three days to read through all eighteen pages of the Add CB Prizes to the Market thread, and that was when I was on break and had plenty of free time. And that was just one thread. We cannot expect TJ to comb through all the pages of every suggestion, especially not all the super-active ones- and even if he did, we could hardly expect him to be able to thoughtfully address the five hundred variations of the suggestion that pop up in the thread. That's asking too much of him. If we want him to respond to the thread's consensus, rather than its first post, then it's up to the OP to keep the first post up to date, not up to TJ to read the whole thread.

 

It's much easier to do if you follow along as it happens. It's definite much more daunting if you stop keeping up and suddenly have dozens of posts to catch up on, but doing so in smaller chunks isn't as bad. I was around when that thread was made, so there was never a point when I had eighteen pages to catch up on.

 

5 hours ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

But ignoring things like how raised holiday limits could be made stress-free, or saying breeding results look “fine” when people have reported anything but for years, or not raising GoN limits because there’s “no reason” when reasons were given...

 

You're free to disagree with the reasoning I gave, but you're taking your disagreement and using it twist and misrepresent some of my points here. e.g. my assertion is that having holiday limits is inherently less stressful, because if you're at your limits there's literally nothing to worry about gathering from the cave during events, and having fewer people vying for the dragons in the event biomes is inherently less stress for the people who have not yet obtained those dragons.

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1 hour ago, TJ09 said:

 

 

You're free to disagree with the reasoning I gave, but you're taking your disagreement and using it twist and misrepresent some of my points here. e.g. my assertion is that having holiday limits is inherently less stressful, because if you're at your limits there's literally nothing to worry about gathering from the cave during events, and having fewer people vying for the dragons in the event biomes is inherently less stress for the people who have not yet obtained those dragons.

 

That's true. BUT - now that we have the holiday biome - we only REALLY need the limit for the year of issue. As for GoNs - we CAN have a full set of sprites - there are only three ! AS a reason to raise the limit that never made sense to me.

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@TJ09 I’m not trying to twist your words, but I think you’re misjudging the reality of the situation and glossing over some of the solutions.

 

- Would making holidays cheaply available in the market during their season cause all that much more stress?

- Would an initial limit of 4 (or only 4, ever) cause all that much more stress?

- Would a double whammy of having an original limit during release year PLUS them subsequently available in cave, a proposition made explicitly to reduce stress, cause all that much more stress?

- If people are noting the pick up rate of old holidays getting slower and slower every year because fewer people can take them then new people are joining, would a lack of limits cause all that much more stress?

- Considering Valentines is hardly even a holiday, and even if it was certainly not on the tier of Christmas & friends, would at least raising limits then really cause all that much more stress?

 

Yes, it might possibly add a little ‘stress’ (what doesn’t?) but that doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. I mean—Valentines and Christmas dragons don’t have limits now (an addition EXTREMELY appreciated, but undoubtedly more ‘stressful’—in a good way!—than this would be), so even if you ONLY added holidays to the shop during their season, you immediately reduce the stress to the very small “hm, should I get CBs or pick up lineages?” And that’s so minor a trade off that it would be like asking if you’re willing to risk getting a single mosquito bite in order to go on a two week vacation to Yellowstone. The stress factor for holidays can be kept exceedingly small while still raising limits. That’s what most of the latter half of the thread was working to solve! Now, if the answer then is “make a new topic with the last agreed upon solution in the OP” alright, but that wasn’t articulated to us. 

 

Edit: the more I think about it, the more sure I am that holidays in the market would REDUCE stress. It’s not my favorite suggestion by itself—I think as time goes on more and more holidays will sit untaken in the biomes, making buying them, even cheaply, like paying for bottled water next to a drinking fountain—but it would take the worry off those with extremely limited time to hunt, especially for some of the older holidays that are still a bit touch and go with finding.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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7 hours ago, Nove NuVonde said:

Kinda feeling as angelic is here, it's great and all to have replies, but most of them are just. Hm. Possibly what is most frustrating is how it feels like most of them were closed without chance for rebuttal or further discussion. Just, "nope. This is how it is." We barely got answers and several points in closed threads went unanswered. It stings a little to feel like he didn't even get past the OP in some of these suggestions, with meaningful discussion, alternative proposals, and minor tweaks getting totally swept under the rug. Maybe we should have been a little more careful what we wished for when we said "even just a hard yes or no would be preferable to nothing" because seeing some of these threads die with so little elaboration is extremely disheartening and makes it feel like we aren't really being heard.

 

In this case, threads would just go on and on forever and ever. If TJ were to give his opinion of "this is something I won't ever put in the game", people would surely argue back. If it's something people want but is something that won't ever be put in, there is no point in keeping the thread open, and will just open up that feeling for players again of "screaming into the void". You can argue all you want, but if it's a matter he won't be swayed on, there's no point arguing at all. I feel like this is a good place to say that this site isn't a democracy. We have a suggestions board of things we can suggest, not implement. The amount of stuff we as players will want doesn't really matter, because we can't just vote things into existence. If it's a thing TJ doesn't want in his game, that's fair.

 

(Sorry Nove NuVonde, I'm not attacking you personally, you just brought up a point that I could bounce my thoughts off! Nothing personal! ^^;)

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1 hour ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

In this case, threads would just go on and on forever and ever. If TJ were to give his opinion of "this is something I won't ever put in the game", people would surely argue back. If it's something people want but is something that won't ever be put in, there is no point in keeping the thread open, and will just open up that feeling for players again of "screaming into the void". You can argue all you want, but if it's a matter he won't be swayed on, there's no point arguing at all. I feel like this is a good place to say that this site isn't a democracy. We have a suggestions board of things we can suggest, not implement. The amount of stuff we as players will want doesn't really matter, because we can't just vote things into existence. If it's a thing TJ doesn't want in his game, that's fair.

 

(Sorry Nove NuVonde, I'm not attacking you personally, you just brought up a point that I could bounce my thoughts off! Nothing personal! ^^;)

 

 

This. Though I do agree with ADP about the holidays thing - NOT in the market, but no limit after the year of issue.

 

Democracy doesn't always work.

 

Quote

No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

 

Churchill.

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I really wish TJ would chime into the two threads I really want the most: the eggs showing up in the confirmation page which is a rather simple and easy suggestion as to not bite the wrong egg by mistake (I have taken up to look at the code in the link). The other thread is about the purebred Spinels. We've been asking to have it where they produce both colours on a 50/50 basis. But alas, both threads have gone unnoticed and unanswered

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I think the point of closing threads is that those are definitively not going to happen and everything else has at least a chance , and is not out of the question. Since TJ cannot (or doesn't want to, fair) give input on every single thread at all times, I interpret this as meaning that open threads are under consideration, whether TJ has actually posted or not, I'm sure he's read them.

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20 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

I think the point of closing threads is that those are definitively not going to happen and everything else has at least a chance , and is not out of the question. Since TJ cannot (or doesn't want to, fair) give input on every single thread at all times, I interpret this as meaning that open threads are under consideration, whether TJ has actually posted or not, I'm sure he's read them.

 

Yep, he just said:

 

4 hours ago, TJ09 said:

If I don't close a thread, it's because I explicitly want to see where it goes. I definitely could chime in more, but it's incorrect to conflate silence with lack of attention. The general consensus I'm seeing is that people would rather I just shut things down, though, rather than wait and see if anything useful comes of it, so I guess that's what I'll try to do more.

 

 

I'm just really glad that we've had this communication. If something is never going to be put in the cave, it's so much better that it's just shut down. And it's unfair to claim TJ doesn't give his reasonings, because he does; every thread we've had shut down has been given a reason. That's what we asked for after all.

Edited by RealWilliamShakespeare
typo lol

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9 hours ago, Keileon said:

This is how I've been looking at it. TJ addressed the intended purpose of each suggestion; personally while I disagree with some of his stances I find that they are still valid stances to take.

 

It seemed like he wasn't shutting down the concept without explanation. He left the other proposed suggestions open for debate in threads made for the purpose *of* those suggestions-- if he went into each thread and addressed every solution that got brought up it'd have gotten harder for him to keep track of, which I feel is part of why there's not as much communication. It's not a bad thing that we take the original idea and suggest ways to do it differently, but ultimately it distracts from the original idea in and of itself.

Looks like you have a point. Which makes something else all the more important: Keeping the OP up to date with an overview of all important points (possible problems and solutions, alternatives...) so TJ has an easy time finding this without having to look through numerous pages. This should even happen if the OP isn't active any more - someone would have to take over and ask the mods for help - even if it's just to add a link to another post that should replace the OP because it's more up to date and so on.

 

Does that mean I'm happy with all of TJ's decisions? Of course not. But a straight "no" or "not yet" is still better than no answer at all. So, like it or not, it's an improvement. Thanks, TJ!

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3 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

In this case, threads would just go on and on forever and ever. If TJ were to give his opinion of "this is something I won't ever put in the game", people would surely argue back. If it's something people want but is something that won't ever be put in, there is no point in keeping the thread open, and will just open up that feeling for players again of "screaming into the void". You can argue all you want, but if it's a matter he won't be swayed on, there's no point arguing at all. I feel like this is a good place to say that this site isn't a democracy. We have a suggestions board of things we can suggest, not implement. The amount of stuff we as players will want doesn't really matter, because we can't just vote things into existence. If it's a thing TJ doesn't want in his game, that's fair.

 

(Sorry Nove NuVonde, I'm not attacking you personally, you just brought up a point that I could bounce my thoughts off! Nothing personal! ^^;)

 

Total agreement. While I understand how it can feel abrupt (and even sometimes rude) to post a one or two sentence response and then just shut down the thread, if there is no *reason* to keep the thread open then that's what needs to happen. Especially since TJ specifically said he leaves threads open when he wants to see where they go. If he deliberately shuts them down, I see that as a 'hard no' and there is no reason to keep posting or to try to argue with whatever he said. I'm not thrilled about some of his 'hard no's, but I can respect them and realize when it's time to shut up for awhile (and then perhaps revisit it to see if he's changed his mind in 6 months or so.....)

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Considering Valentines is hardly even a holiday, and even if it was certainly not on the tier of Christmas & friends, would at least raising limits then really cause all that much more stress?


This. I never got this. Valentines is barely a holiday at all. The most real life stress it causes is remembering to give your sweetheart some flowers (if you even have one to begin with) it's not at all comparable to Christmas, there's no family gatherings and long travel times to possibly interfere with the game.. so why does that holiday need a limit?

Edited by Dragon_Arbock

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7 hours ago, TJ09 said:

 

It's actually more the opposite. To use the "prizes in the market" thread as an example, I commented quite early that it was against one of the core philosophies of the market so it was unlikely to happen. I gave it several months of following the actual discussion as it happened, which is certainly not "never going to think about it again," but it didn't do anything to change my mind and barely even touched on the points I made, so I've finally just closed it.

 

If I don't close a thread, it's because I explicitly want to see where it goes. I definitely could chime in more, but it's incorrect to conflate silence with lack of attention. The general consensus I'm seeing is that people would rather I just shut things down, though, rather than wait and see if anything useful comes of it, so I guess that's what I'll try to do more.

 

 

To be more specific, if it's an idea that you're never going to actively think about IMPLEMENTING, I'd rather you closed it so that we didn't all get our hopes up and spend our time discussing and re-discussing it.

 

I wasn't trying to accuse you of never thinking about things as in not paying attention to them; I was saying that if there are suggestions you are never going to consider actually implementing for a fundamental reason (like it's against one of your core philosophies of gameplay) I do think it's kinder to pull the plug on the discussion right away.

 

If you're still seriously considering the possibility of implementing something, then I'd prefer you left that suggestion open.

 

I appreciate the feedback, personally. It helps me decide what to concern myself with and what not to.

 

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