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Vain.3805

BALLOON LEVITATE BSA

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13 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

This may be a counter to earthquake, but I actually think that's a good thing. Right now nobody uses EQ because it affects everything on the scroll and most people are bound to have something hard to replace out of 8 eggs, so it's too risky at any given point in time to kill the on thing that matters. Being able to target only, say, 5/8 or whatever would make EQ more usable. I'd gladly EQ the commons I've got, but I wouldn't want my important lineage eggs dying, so I just never use it.

 

(bolding for emphasis)

 

I'd actually totally support a BSA like that. A BSA that is *like* Earthquake, but only targets a few specific eggs. That would be more useful then Earthquake, and people would probably use it more often because they have more control over the outcome. I'd support an actual action like that a *lot* more then a BSA deliberately designed to negate a different BSA. (And really, that'd be much more direct and intuitive then this. A BSA you have to remember to use in order to negate the risks of using a different BSA, or a BSA that actually does what you want in the first place? I know which I'd choose.)

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I'd support that - BUT I think the BSA should only be usable on one egg at a time. As in you'd need to use 5 balloons to float 5 eggs, not one balloon to float 5 eggs.

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Doesn’t being able to pick and choose what hatches or not really defeat the point of Earthquake anyway? Personally I enjoy that it has such a massive, critical impact upon a fail. Auto-hatching eggs isn’t something that should be able to be done without huge consequence. I stand by my opinion that BSAs shouldn’t affect other BSAs. Earthquake is so overpowered, I don’t think it should be more usable.

 

Also, my original qualm with the concept is that is targets Balloons; the site is trying to distance itself from the unrealism of an inflatable dragon, and dragons made out of paper and whatnot. Making a BSA for one of the jokey breeds would be like opening up that door again, which I understand DC is trying to avoid. If this concept were something like Ash Dragons temporarily hiding an egg in its back spines, out of reach of dangerous Earthquakes or vicious Vampires, I’d understand it a bit more. But it’s about Balloons, so that’s an even bigger nope from me lol

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Earthquake is not overpowered at all, since the only thing it usually does is killing all eggs or nothing at all.

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7 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Earthquake is not overpowered at all, since the only thing it usually does is killing all eggs or nothing at all.

 

I didn't quite make myself clear with that: if it were to succeed, it would be, is what I meant. If the chances of it succeeding were higher than they are now, it'd be overpowered, which is why I'm happy with the awful consequences of it. I don't believe hatching up to 8 eggs at once is something that should be able to be done easily.

Edited by RealWilliamShakespeare

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I don't really see too much of an issue with it succeeding. We still have hatchling limits if we somehow manage not to kill everything.. at which point you're either keeping the hatchlings, or trading them for a few eggs that are too important to you to EQ.

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5 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

Doesn’t being able to pick and choose what hatches or not really defeat the point of Earthquake anyway? Personally I enjoy that it has such a massive, critical impact upon a fail. Auto-hatching eggs isn’t something that should be able to be done without huge consequence. I stand by my opinion that BSAs shouldn’t affect other BSAs. Earthquake is so overpowered, I don’t think it should be more usable.

 

Also, my original qualm with the concept is that is targets Balloons; the site is trying to distance itself from the unrealism of an inflatable dragon, and dragons made out of paper and whatnot. Making a BSA for one of the jokey breeds would be like opening up that door again, which I understand DC is trying to avoid. If this concept were something like Ash Dragons temporarily hiding an egg in its back spines, out of reach of dangerous Earthquakes or vicious Vampires, I’d understand it a bit more. But it’s about Balloons, so that’s an even bigger nope from me lol

The thing is that even a Levitate BSA doesn't let you choose what hatches and what doesn't - it only stops certain eggs from being killed and/or being hatched. Like, you can EQ 7 of your 8 eggs (and, most likely, kill off all of them, keeping you egg-locked with 7 shells and one healthy egg for the next 24 hours). Excluding certain eggs from being affected by EQ at all doesn't make EQ overpowered. 

 

Don't get me wrong. EQ used to be overpowered when EQ kills didn't count towards your limits - but since that has been fixed, the issue is pretty much resolved.

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7 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

Also, my original qualm with the concept is that is targets Balloons; the site is trying to distance itself from the unrealism of an inflatable dragon, and dragons made out of paper and whatnot. Making a BSA for one of the jokey breeds would be like opening up that door again, which I understand DC is trying to avoid. If this concept were something like Ash Dragons temporarily hiding an egg in its back spines, out of reach of dangerous Earthquakes or vicious Vampires, I’d understand it a bit more. But it’s about Balloons, so that’s an even bigger nope from me lol

Where does it say the site is trying to get away from the realism of inflatable dragons?

DRAGONS.  AREN'T.  REAL.  Realism is highly debatable at this point of ANY of the Dragons!

Just because you want super serial dragons doesn't mean that's what TJ wants...

I mean... have you not seen a frikkin Red-lipped batfish... it's a fish... that looks like a bat... wearing lipstick.

Or a Tufted deer?  It's Vampire Bambi.

An Aye-aye?  The Waterbear?  You wanna go find the Architect and explain that these things are just not serious enough for your existence?

 

The once known as a platapus thing?

Edited by Vain.3805

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Now, how does the Balloon Dragon use that internal organ to levitate eggs? 🤔

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15 minutes ago, Vain.3805 said:

Where does it say the site is trying to get away from the realism of inflatable dragons?

DRAGONS.  AREN'T.  REAL.  Realism is highly debatable at this point of ANY of the Dragons!

Just because you want super serial dragons doesn't mean that's what TJ wants...

I mean... have you not seen a frikkin Red-lipped batfish... it's a fish... that looks like a bat... wearing lipstick.

Or a Tufted deer?  It's Vampire Bambi.

An Aye-aye?  The Waterbear?  You wanna go find the Architect and explain that these things are just not serious enough for your existence?

 

The once known as a platapus thing?

 

Jeez, don't shoot the messenger. Look at the Dragon Request requirements:

 

Quote
  • Characteristics to avoid in a sprite/sprite concept are:
    • Hybrid dragons (half-dragon half-something, different from dragons that borrow a trait from something as their defining trait).
    • A dragon that resembles an animal it is inspired from more than a dragon. You do not want a wolf/cat/fox/etc with wings, you want a dragon with wolf/cat/fox/etc characteristics. When using animals for inspiration, it is best to choose a few characteristics and incorporate them into your dragon. Design a dragon first, add animal characteristics second.
    • Enchanted dragons "made" out of some inanimate object.
    • Cultural references (such as to specific cultures, locations, etc.)
    • Dragons with props.
    • Color-specific transparency dithering (sprites should look good on any color background, not just the scroll).
    • Direct, front-on poses.
    • Poses that only show a dragon from the back, unless something on the back of the dragon is its distinguishing feature.
    • Dithering between two sharply-contrasted colors. You'd be better off introducing a median color.
    • Dragons named after geographical locations (ie, Europe doesn't exist in the DC world, so calling something a "European Glider" doesn't make sense).
    • Excessive alts/variations that do not contribute to the concept.

 

Yeah, it's literally outlined that inanimate object dragons aren't allowed in cave anymore. If someone tried making a concept like that, it'd be rejected immediately. So yeah, TJ himself doesn't want that. He has commented on concepts in the past stating these wishes as well.

 

Adding on a feature like this BSA to a species like that is, imo, essentially reviving the idea that these dragons are okay and accepted, when the opposite is true.

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I don't think Balloon Dragons are just enchanted balloons though ...

Edited by Ruby Eyes

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9 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

I don't think Balloon Dragons are just enchanted balloons though ...

Agreed. They're probably called balloon dragons because they're so loony... ;) Kidding aside, we have moon-based dragons (lunar heralds), as well as dragons based on various kinds of stone (stone, geode, moonstone, sunstone, opals, pyralspites, diamond wings), various metals (gold, silver, copper, bronze - kind of), other breeds that are a mix of dragon and fire (hellfire, falconiform, carina, magelight pygmy, omen), dragons based on interstellar objects (nebulas, carinas again), other breeds based on plants (rosebud, holly, mistletoe, vine, floret, gaia) and a number of other things.

 

28 minutes ago, Vain.3805 said:

How is an air-filled bladder going to make you float in air? Physics says this doesn't work. 

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6 minutes ago, olympe said:

How is an air-filled bladder going to make you float in air? Physics says this doesn't work.

But they aren't filled with air. Their description says they are filled with a gas that makes them almost lighter than air

 

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It may be filled with something other than air. Helium and magic? XD Yeah yeah, I mentioned magic again, I'll go see myself out the door ...

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39 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Now, how does the Balloon Dragon use that internal organ to levitate eggs? 🤔

 

I think the very simple solution would just have it carry the egg. Sure most breeds with wings could do that too, but not as gently.

 

As for arguing over the realism of Balloon dragons themselves.. they're already in the game- and we still have 'joke' breeds. You can't convince me that dedicating 7 dragons to a power rangers reference and 4 to a harry potter reference aren't jokes.

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20 minutes ago, olympe said:

How is an air-filled bladder going to make you float in air? Physics says this doesn't work. 

The balloon I got from the store sure seems to float... Fish use them to create neutral buoyancy in water.  In fact, the only reason we seem to not have an airborn animal that does this is because lungs and gas bladders on Earth seem to be mutually exclusive for evolution.  Good thing this game isn't set on Earth or it wouldn't be realistic!

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6 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

You can't convince me that dedicating 7 dragons to a power rangers reference and 4 to a harry potter reference aren't jokes.

Pop culture references! (Ever played Kingdom of Loathing? It's full of those!)

 

You do have a point there with them carrying the egg. It would also totally justify why they can only lift one egg at a time, per individual.

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9 minutes ago, Vain.3805 said:

The balloon I got from the store sure seems to float... Fish use them to create neutral buoyancy in water.  In fact, the only reason we seem to not have an airborn animal that does this is because lungs and gas bladders on Earth seem to be mutually exclusive for evolution.  Good thing this game isn't set on Earth or it wouldn't be realistic!

Sorry to burst your balloon or bladder or bubble, but the floating balloon you got from the store is not filled with air, but with a lighter gas. Most likely helium, since hydrogen (which is even lighter) has a rather explosive personality when sparked...

 

The actual reason why airborn animals don't have air bladders is because it wouldn't help them float in air. In order to float in a medium (air, in this case), you need to have a lower overall density than said medium (air). Expanding your body's volume with air infintely will not lower its density to be lower than that of air, it can only get infintesimally close to that. And while it's true that the air within your body would be warm and thus of lower density, your body would put pressure on your air sacs, thereby making the air denser than it would be without pressure. 

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2 minutes ago, olympe said:

Sorry to burst your balloon or bladder or bubble, but the floating balloon you got from the store is not filled with air, but with a lighter gas. Most likely helium, since hydrogen (which is even lighter) has a rather explosive personality when sparked...

 

The actual reason why airborn animals don't have air bladders is because it wouldn't help them float in air. In order to float in a medium (air, in this case), you need to have a lower overall density than said medium (air). Expanding your body's volume with air infintely will not lower its density to be lower than that of air, it can only get infintesimally close to that. And while it's true that the air within your body would be warm and thus of lower density, your body would put pressure on your air sacs, thereby making the air denser than it would be without pressure. 

Fish air bladders aren't filled with air either by your logic.  They're filled with farts.  Air is gas.  Gas is air.  Nothing about air requires it to be anything other than a gas.  Nobody said it has to be able to sustain human life for it to be air.  Venus has an atmosphere made of air.  You'd melt breathing it, but it's still air.

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@olympe @Vain.3805

Can we please not argue about the science of balloon dragons? Their descriptions doesn't even say 'air'. It says a gas. Just let's pretend they can somehow fill themselves with helium. They float, lore says so, this isn't about how they float- it's about if the BSA is a good idea or not.

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If this were implemented and used as a way to let us use Earthquake without putting our valuable egg(s) at risk, it would be amazing. I adore Balloons and have a ton.

 

Perhaps a limit on how many eggs can float at once, so we don't abuse it by only Earthquaking eggs we don't care about? Like, depending on how many Balloons you have. A limit of 4 eggs absolute would be good. Still risky, because if we're egg locked, we're risking at most 4 more eggs and at least one other. Maybe every 10 balloons we have, add 1 to the amount of eggs we can float? I dunno. I just think Balloons having a BSA would be awesome.

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IF this were to happen, I'd want a limit of only *one* dragon 'floated' at a time. I very much agree that Earthquake is a very very powerful action, and overpowering it even *more* by completely eliminating risks (which is what this suggestion seems to mostly be about) isn't something I see as a Good Thing. Yes, Earthquake kills eggs a good amount of the time. That doesn't negate how powerful it *can* be, though; It has the ability to immediate hatch your eggs at any time you choose, *well* before they are properly able to. I'd count that as a very powerful ability, regardless of the current 'kills everything' risks. So to add an action that totally negates the 'kills everything' risk.... DC has *always* had guidelines against 'overpowering' your dragon concepts. Always. I'd think an Earthquake with no risks is just way too overpowered for this game. 

 

There should be *some* risk to Earthquake, regardless of if this suggestion happens or not. So no to being able to 'float' every single egg you have, and use Earthquake with no risk of death at all. At *most* it should be able to protect half of your eggs (so maybe it scales with trophy, or with how many you actually have at the time).

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What do you mean about "eliminating risks"? The eggs where the risk gets eliminated also don't have a chance to get hatched. What EQ then does is the same as the kill action - which achieves pretty much the same result when used on eggs - only that it targets all eggs instead of just one - and is available when you don't have any kill slots left. So, if you float every single egg on your scroll and use EQ, all you get is, "Green Dragon used Earthquake. Nothing happened." (If you see a Pokémon joke in here, you may keep it.)

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