Sprite Updates

[Keileon]

I have adored... basically every single big sprite update I've been on the site for. There are a handful of older sprites I also think desperately need at least a shading/anatomy update. So honestly I'm cool with whatever updates and tweaks TJ and the artists see necessary, especially if it gives the original artists a chance to remake their old work with their higher skill.

[Sazandora]

4 hours ago, Keileon said:

I have adored... basically every single big sprite update I've been on the site for. There are a handful of older sprites I also think desperately need at least a shading/anatomy update. So honestly I'm cool with whatever updates and tweaks TJ and the artists see necessary, especially if it gives the original artists a chance to remake their old work with their higher skill.

Agreed. I'm an artist myself, I frequently redo a lot of my old drawings because they're so outdated compared to my newer work. If I had a dragon I created added into the game, I'd probably want to update its sprite(s) sometime later so it'd match my current standards. Just because some people have grown attached to certain sprites, no matter how old and/or outdated they are, it shouldn't mean no one can touch them in any way. Artists should always have the right to update their old art if they want to.

[Ruby Eyes]

I still don't see how the current Nilias are *any* better than the original ones. Not at all.

[Nerei]

1 minute ago, Ruby Eyes said:

I still don't see how the current Nilias are *any* better than the original ones. Not at all.

Taste is subjective. I love the new nilias. I can’t say that in this instance an update was particularly needed (or even asked for). But it was all preference of the spriter.

[Primaltimediamond]

I feel like I'm one of the few who really liked the silver update, their flaws to me personally made them unappealing, it was basically "once you see it you can't unsee it" things, So I'm glad those were taken care off, and I'm also happy they look shinier, mean they struck me more as flat grey then really silver. Least compared to the other silver dragons we got on site it made them just made them bland in comparison. 

 

I don't mind the updates, it's just something that happens, they're just part of life and we just have to deal with them.

 

 though I'm not fond of the whole "I shouldn't have to go offsite to look at the old spites" it comes off as pretty elitist, after all we the players literally have NO say in these updates, that's up the TJ and the artists, all we get to say is if we like them or not.  

 

Heck just be happy the old sprites are even kept on the wiki, they could've not done that y'know? 

 

but yeah there's my 2 cents on the matter 

[olympe]

1 hour ago, Primaltimediamond said:

I feel like I'm one of the few who really liked the silver update, their flaws to me personally made them unappealing, it was basically "once you see it you can't unsee it" things, So I'm glad those were taken care off, and I'm also happy they look shinier, mean they struck me more as flat grey then really silver. Least compared to the other silver dragons we got on site it made them just made them bland in comparison. 

Trust me, you're not alone, and I agree with you 100%. However, the haters are the more vocal group. (Because, seriously, what do we non-haters have to complain about?)

 

On 10/20/2018 at 3:14 AM, HeatherMarie said:

Geodes seem to have 'bulked up', lost their air of lightness/sleekness. Neotropicals, the female is noticeably darker then before. Horses lost their smoothness, seem more muscle-y. I believe I've commented on the Splits before, while they've technically retained the pose their bodies are very different, more muscle-y, not cuddly-looking like the old ones. Waters have a fairly noticeable change in pose, while keeping the 'spirit' of the old it's definitely fairly different.  ... Etc etc etc. 

Uhm... The only changes the male geode got is that the far wing, which had been missing in the old sprite, got added - and the near wing got a bit of an outline on the edge. Literally. Nothing else changed, not a single pixel on the rump, the neck, the head, the tail or the legs. Not a single pixel.

 

On the neotropical, the female only got the yellow bits darkened to orange and the wing underside lost its brightest highlight while the green stayed pretty much the same. The male, however, got quite a bit lighter.

 

Regarding splits - they actually got whole and working wings, without shorter wing fingers sticking out in weird directions. Their near front leg isn't bent in a way that cannot be healthy for a quadrupede. And they don't look like they're sticking out their butts any more. Plus, they got muscle defintion. It's a tragedy! /sarcasm

 

And look at those waters, their tails are posed differently, not to mention that the male actually dares to look the other way! *gasp*

 

I think your perception is really weird.

Edited December 3, 2018 by olympe

[HeatherMarie]

8 hours ago, olympe said:

Trust me, you're not alone, and I agree with you 100%. However, the haters are the more vocal group. (Because, seriously, what do we non-haters have to complain about?)

 

Uhm... The only changes the male geode got is that the far wing, which had been missing in the old sprite, got added - and the near wing got a bit of an outline on the edge. Literally. Nothing else changed, not a single pixel on the rump, the neck, the head, the tail or the legs. Not a single pixel.

 

On the neotropical, the female only got the yellow bits darkened to orange and the wing underside lost its brightest highlight while the green stayed pretty much the same. The male, however, got quite a bit lighter.

 

Regarding splits - they actually got whole and working wings, without shorter wing fingers sticking out in weird directions. Their near front leg isn't bent in a way that cannot be healthy for a quadrupede. And they don't look like they're sticking out their butts any more. Plus, they got muscle defintion. It's a tragedy! /sarcasm

 

And look at those waters, their tails are posed differently, not to mention that the male actually dares to look the other way! *gasp*

 

I think your perception is really weird.

 

The male geode looks considerably skinnier to me. Seriously. I'm not trying to be nit-picky, it really does. Maybe it's because of the different shading (because the shading is *definitely* different). Maybe it isn't *actually* skinnier pixel-wise. But the changes that were made do make it feel that way to me. 

 

Thank you for all your sarcasm, but it doesn't change anything. Those sprites I talked about have a very different feel after being 'updated', and I'm not the only one who thinks so. If you feel differently that's fine, but I really don't see reason for so much sarcasm. You like the changes. I don't. You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours. 

[Nerei]

13 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

The male geode looks considerably skinnier to me. Seriously. I'm not trying to be nit-picky, it really does. Maybe it's because of the different shading (because the shading is *definitely* different). Maybe it isn't *actually* skinnier pixel-wise. But the changes that were made do make it feel that way to me. 

 

Thank you for all your sarcasm, but it doesn't change anything. Those sprites I talked about have a very different feel after being 'updated', and I'm not the only one who thinks so. If you feel differently that's fine, but I really don't see reason for so much sarcasm. You like the changes. I don't. You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours. 

The male geode has literally no changes other than the far wing 

[olympe]

2 hours ago, Niyaka said:

The male geode has literally no changes other than the far wing 

Literally. I put the old sprite in a painting program, then put the new one on a layer above and switched back and forth. This way, you easily spot every single pixel that got changed. Save for the addition of the far wing, both sprites are 100% identical in every single pixel. Which you can verify for yourself if you try. If that results in you getting a totally different feel about a sprite, this is less telling about the sprite itself than on your "older-is-better" bias.

[pinkgothic]

On 12/3/2018 at 8:28 PM, olympe said:

Regarding splits - they actually got whole and working wings, without shorter wing fingers sticking out in weird directions. Their near front leg isn't bent in a way that cannot be healthy for a quadrupede. And they don't look like they're sticking out their butts any more. Plus, they got muscle defintion. It's a tragedy! /sarcasm

I love what they've turned into, but I do agree with @HeatherMarie they've got a completely different feel now. They used to be cute. Now they're badass. I appreciate that and despite being some of my favourite dragons before, the new sprites had me ecstatic, but nonetheless, if someone got attached to the cutesy look, the change really is pretty tragic. I may be completely delighted, but I'm not at all surprised some people weren't.

[Aqub]

I personally don't mind the look of the older sprites, but I don't mind updates either, they definitely make the dragons look way better! The only thing that would bother me is if the pose of the dragon changes drastically. I like to build lineages based on how the poses look together, so a change in poses would be annoying, but not the end of the world... 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Aqub

[Cyberr]

I'm the one who is for sprite updates and liked all of recent ones. Also I think that some sprites could be updated/fixed (for example Dorsals.... I would love too see them just anatomicaly fixed and shaded. Just only...pose can stay the same, it's good).

Maybe there could be an option to keep/switch sprites for all users that have nostalgia or just like the older sprite. It would work just like this that you can toogle how sprites look on your own scroll? I know it could be hard to do, but this would maybe satisfy everyone? And it would apply to all dragons on specific scroll. Others would see a sprite which you want. Or whatever you would like how it could work(maybe it would add more variety to lineages...) Dunno, just posting an idea that I and gothh long time ago talked about in real life...

But I think also that TJ could see this idea as an unnecessary, so I don't know....but updates should be done with approval of artist/all artists who has done the specific sprite, or her/his/their demand. And for sake of all lineages, they should preserve as much feel as old ones as it is possible. I mean pose, silhouette/body build, source of light, colors, like many other people said.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

1 hour ago, Cyberr said:

I'm the one who is for sprite updates and liked all of recent ones. Also I think that some sprites could be updated/fixed (for example Dorsals.... I would love too see them just anatomicaly fixed and shaded. Just only...pose can stay the same, it's good).

Maybe there could be an option to keep/switch sprites for all users that have nostalgia or just like the older sprite. It would work just like this that you can toogle how sprites look on your own scroll? I know it could be hard to do, but this would maybe satisfy everyone? And it would apply to all dragons on specific scroll. Others would see a sprite which you want. Or whatever you would like how it could work(maybe it would add more variety to lineages...) Dunno, just posting an idea that I and gothh long time ago talked about in real life...

But I think also that TJ could see this idea as an unnecessary, so I don't know....but updates should be done with approval of artist/all artists who has done the specific sprite, or her/his/their demand. And for sake of all lineages, they should preserve as much feel as old ones as it is possible. I mean pose, silhouette/body build, source of light, colors, like many other people said.

 

I think this was already brought up, and the conclusion was that a lot of artists update their art because they themselves dislike their old work. In this case, it would be unfair on the artists if they don't want their old art shown on the site anymore (and perhaps even a breach of the art agreement, considering they aren't exactly consenting to their old art being used anymore)

[Ashywolf]

Well, looks like it is time to take an unpopular stance. 

 

There are three sides debating here. People who believe the old sprites are better because they like them. Then people who believe the new sprites are better because they like them more. But then there are people who, regardless of their actual personal opinion, vouch for the new sprites because they are improved and consistent with DC's "modern dragon style".

If I can attempt to make an unbiased statement (at the risk of many of you saying I'm terribly biased, hopefully not just because I differ from your opinion): the goal needs to be consistency. The old sprites are not consistent with the new ones and need to be updated for that reason. What do we do here? Do we fight over personal opinions, or go with the reasoning that improved sprites should be used over old ones just because they fit the style? If we can't agree unanimously then we will be fighting over this forever.

 

I get there is nostalgia for older sprites because people are "used to them" or because they just like the goofy comical looks some of them have. But consistency should be an established guideline. If you don't agree with consistency, I don't know what to tell you. Dragon Requests are critiqued based on consistency with the art style. Old sprites have been changed to match the current art style DC uses. DC is clearly heading for consistency so we should help maintain it best we can.

 

TLDR: it doesn't matter as much what we all want right now because we need the art styles to be consistent.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Ashywolf
more text, and also tidied a bunch of text to get to the point sooner as well as avoid too much drama.

[deleted]

I would like to see some of the cartoony looking breeds get an update.... as much as you defend them I feel like they should be closer to the other breeds in terms of shading. Look at Khusas. They're the perfect example of a derpy dragon which also matches the art standards of current DC.

 

Seasonals update was a big improvement. The spriter went out of their way to keep the poses for you. All they did was shade them accordingly. The Red update wasn't handled unproperly either. You're all too attached to the old and don't want to admit the new one is better. IMO just accept that you need changes sometimes in order to progress. Most actively updated games get updates that improve them. Why should DC not? 

 

Anyways, sprites I'd like to see UPDATED and not REPLACED are Balloons, Coastal Waverunners, Dorsals (these 3 look cartoony to me and could use some more prominent shading like the Seasonals), Papers (need shading), Albinos (need shading & bit of neck fix), Stones and Greens (need a bit of sprite clarification & updated shading), Daydream (has hangbutt), Magis (an update like the Reds would be good..)

[Fuzzbucket]

On 1/10/2019 at 8:21 PM, Ashywolf said:

Well, looks like it is time to take an unpopular stance. 

 

There are three sides debating here. People who believe the old sprites are better because they like them. Then people who believe the new sprites are better because they like them more. But then there are people who, regardless of their actual personal opinion, vouch for the new sprites because they are improved and consistent with DC's "modern dragon style".

If I can attempt to make an unbiased statement (at the risk of many of you saying I'm terribly biased, hopefully not just because I differ from your opinion): the goal needs to be consistency. The old sprites are not consistent with the new ones and need to be updated for that reason. What do we do here? Do we fight over personal opinions, or go with the reasoning that improved sprites should be used over old ones just because they fit the style? If we can't agree unanimously then we will be fighting over this forever.

 

I get there is nostalgia for older sprites because people are "used to them" or because they just like the goofy comical looks some of them have. But consistency should be an established guideline. If you don't agree with consistency, I don't know what to tell you. Dragon Requests are critiqued based on consistency with the art style. Old sprites have been changed to match the current art style DC uses. DC is clearly heading for consistency so we should help maintain it best we can.

 

TLDR: it doesn't matter as much what we all want right now because we need the art styles to be consistent.

 

Four sides. Those who want to keep them because they are a part of our history. It's not just about likes and dislikes. I absolutely loathe two or three of the 2018 releases, which are presumably "consistent" in DC art terms. There is no need at all for "consistency" as an aim. You don't knock down ugly historic buildings because you think new ones are prettier.

 

Quote

If you don't agree with consistency, I don't know what to tell you.

 

You don't have to tell me anything.  Just leave it that artists get to resprite if they want to and otherwise leave history standing.

[Nerei]

6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

There is no need at all for "consistency" as an aim. You don't knock down ugly historic buildings because you think new ones are prettier.

Dragon sprites ≠ historic buildings

 

People do not want old sprites updated because they think they’re “ugly”—consistency is important. Many old sprites are quite beautiful. That doesn’t mean they fit DC’s evolving standards. DC is a game that is constantly being improved, and sprite updates are a part of it. Of course it’s up to the artist. It always is. But there are some sprites in desperate need of a polish, and users have noticed this. 

 

Updates are not destroying history. The old sprites are not wiped from the Internet. But they are no longer up to par with the dragons DC produces. Objectively speaking, most newer sprites have better shading, better anatomy, and are more consistent with others on the site. 

Edited January 12, 2019 by Niyaka

[Guillotine]

History is irrelevant to the goals of a pet site. Unless you feel that we should have also kept the pre-fog sprites? Or that Neopets should have allowed users to keep old art when they updated? You can disagree with consistency all you want, but it's ultimately better for the site's longevity for everything to be consistent.

[Tawanda001]

56 minutes ago, Guillotine said:

History is irrelevant to the goals of a pet site. Unless you feel that we should have also kept the pre-fog sprites? Or that Neopets should have allowed users to keep old art when they updated? You can disagree with consistency all you want, but it's ultimately better for the site's longevity for everything to be consistent.

Why do people feel that being consistent will favor longevity? What backs that opinion up? Personally I don't go to an art museum hoping that all the artwork will be consistent, I go because I enjoy viewing the different styles of the different artist. If people truly want consistency then why don't we just pick one or two artist and let them do all the spriting for DC?

[Guillotine]

1 hour ago, Tawanda001 said:

Why do people feel that being consistent will favor longevity? What backs that opinion up? Personally I don't go to an art museum hoping that all the artwork will be consistent, I go because I enjoy viewing the different styles of the different artist. If people truly want consistency then why don't we just pick one or two artist and let them do all the spriting for DC?

Because consistency in spriting makes newcomers think that there is quality control. A lack of quality control in the most visible parts of the site imply a lack of quality control elsewhere, which drives off new blood. And TJ doesn't let new artists in often, which implies that exactly what you're suggesting is happening on some level.

 

And comparing an art museum to a pet site is comparing apples to oranges... and even then, a lot of museums specialize according to styles or eras, and more general places separate works according to those same standards. 
 

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

It's definitely worth re-reading what Ashywolf said:

 

On 1/10/2019 at 8:21 PM, Ashywolf said:

The goal needs to be consistency. The old sprites are not consistent with the new ones and need to be updated for that reason.

 

I get there is nostalgia for older sprites because people are "used to them" or because they just like the goofy comical looks some of them have. But consistency should be an established guideline. If you don't agree with consistency, I don't know what to tell you. Dragon Requests are critiqued based on consistency with the art style. Old sprites have been changed to match the current art style DC uses. DC is clearly heading for consistency so we should help maintain it best we can.

 

TLDR: it doesn't matter as much what we all want right now because we need the art styles to be consistent.

 

 

 

I can almost guarantee that if you were to ask an outsider, they would not realise these two sprites were meant to be part of the same website. (I can say this with such certainty because I just asked a friend who doesn't use the website, and they were shocked to learn they're both on the same site!) I just think it's fair that the site should all look as part of a whole instead of having certain parts standing out like sore thumbs.

 

 

6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Four sides. Those who want to keep them because they are a part of our history. It's not just about likes and dislikes. I absolutely loathe two or three of the 2018 releases, which are presumably "consistent" in DC art terms. There is no need at all for "consistency" as an aim. You don't knock down ugly historic buildings because you think new ones are prettier.

 

 

You don't have to tell me anything.  Just leave it that artists get to resprite if they want to and otherwise leave history standing.

 

Imo, this argument would be like campaigning to keep the first generation of Pokémon sprites in the newer games. For example...:

 

 

The first sprite goes down in history - it's the first time a lot of people got to see this Pokémon, it's what so many of us love and remember, but there's no arguing that it doesn't hold up to the anatomical corrections, shading improvements, and all around touch-ups that the later once received. If a building is old and collapsing, it's gonna be knocked down and replaced with a nicer new one.

 

As well, we can all like and dislike certain breeds - you can hate new releases with all of your heart, but at least they are consistent with the site. I don't enjoy some of the newer releases either, but they look like they fit with the rest of the site. Personally I really love the cartoony look of the Balloons, but I would still love to see them receive an update to match the site's recent shading style and level of detail. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Tawanda001 said:

Why do people feel that being consistent will favor longevity? What backs that opinion up? Personally I don't go to an art museum hoping that all the artwork will be consistent, I go because I enjoy viewing the different styles of the different artist. If people truly want consistency then why don't we just pick one or two artist and let them do all the spriting for DC?

 

Sprites can be consistent without having the same artist. Consistency does not equal sameness. Take these sprites for example:

 

 

A perfect representation of how style can vary, but still remain of a high standard that looks part of a whole. They're all somewhat realistically shaded, highlighted, and given unique and intricate details. And every single one of these was done by a different person. See how they're all wonderfully different, different styles, designs, and obviously made using different shading techniques? They'd all make wonderful museum pieces if you ask me.

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[pinkgothic]

I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier:

On 12/4/2018 at 9:30 PM, pinkgothic said:

I love what [the splits] turned into, but I do agree with @HeatherMarie they've got a completely different feel now. They used to be cute. Now they're badass. I appreciate that and despite being some of my favourite dragons before, the new sprites had me ecstatic, but nonetheless, if someone got attached to the cutesy look, the change really is pretty tragic. I may be completely delighted, but I'm not at all surprised some people weren't.

Sprite updates per se are not a bad thing, but one can absolutely be opposed to them without "believing the new sprites aren't [artistically] better" (as someone claimed earlier). The look and feel doesn't always survive a transition.

 

The pokémon analogy doesn't strike me as entirely applicable. Some people do very much prefer individual old pokémon sprites, so it's hardly unheard of. More importantly, there is way more to pokémon than just their sprite. Here on Dragon Cave, the sprite is all there is (and maybe a BSA). (You can't battle the dragons with other dragons. You can't (some events notwithstanding) wander around on a map. There's no plotline to uncover. There are no movesets and stats to breed for. You can't pet your dragons. You can't find, grow or feed your dragons berries. Et cetera.) So the exact sprite has a much greater importance to people on Dragon Cave than it does in a pokémon game.

 

I like most sprite updates. I love what the golds turned into. I love what the male silver turned into (but not the female). I love the split resprite and the red resprite.

 

But, for example, I'm not actually happy with the seasonal resprite - while the old sprites could absolutely have used a rework, the new sprites don't have the same 'softness' that the old ones do, nevermind that the winters have gotten a completely different coloured headdress now. I accept the change, and commend the skill of the artists, but it has turned seasonals into dragons I no longer have much interest in collecting. Which is fine, don't get me wrong! I didn't collect them that much before the change.  I just hope it doesn't happen to a sprite I'm very invested in.

 

My point is, I think it's not too hard to imagine that a sprite change would upset someone, completely independent of whether they would enjoy the sprite if it were a new dragon. People caught and collected specific sprites. It's not surprising that if you suddenly change those, that'll ruffle some feathers, and I do very much think it's legitimate.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I do think we need consistency. If we'e going to hold dragon requests to such a high standard, then the art already on the site should meet those standards as well.

Old sprites are suffering from a smaller color palette, and that limits shading depth and style, regardless of if anatomy is even a problem (like I personally think the Whites only need more colors).

 

Of course there have been some updates that I think have completely missed the point. I don't think the Holly sprite gets by with just a color update. That anatomy is still awful, especially on the wings. We can't just making things more shiny, they need to be fixed, and we can't keep the pose 100% if it's not anatomically correct to begin with. We wouldn't allow a Dragon Request to have bad anatomy, bad shading, etc.. so we can't allow on-site sprites to be that way either.

[Fuzzbucket]

3 hours ago, Guillotine said:

History is irrelevant to the goals of a pet site. Unless you feel that we should have also kept the pre-fog sprites? Or that Neopets should have allowed users to keep old art when they updated? You can disagree with consistency all you want, but it's ultimately better for the site's longevity for everything to be consistent.

 

It is not irrelevant to may of us. Even if it is to you. But we couldn't keep the prefog sprites; we would have been shut down for plagiarism. THAT WAS WHY THE FOG HAPPENED.

 

2 hours ago, Tawanda001 said:

Why do people feel that being consistent will favor longevity? What backs that opinion up? Personally I don't go to an art museum hoping that all the artwork will be consistent, I go because I enjoy viewing the different styles of the different artist. If people truly want consistency then why don't we just pick one or two artist and let them do all the spriting for DC?

 

Right on, Tawanda.

 

54 minutes ago, Guillotine said:

Because consistency in spriting makes newcomers think that there is quality control. A lack of quality control in the most visible parts of the site imply a lack of quality control elsewhere, which drives off new blood. And TJ doesn't let new artists in often, which implies that exactly what you're suggesting is happening on some level.

 

And comparing an art museum to a pet site is comparing apples to oranges... and even then, a lot of museums specialize according to styles or eras, and more general places separate works according to those same standards. 
 

 

But they don't throw stuff out.

 

53 minutes ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

Sprites can be consistent without having the same artist. Consistency does not equal sameness. Take these sprites for example:

 

 

A perfect representation of how style can vary, but still remain of a high standard that looks part of a whole. They're all somewhat realistically shaded, highlighted, and given unique and intricate details. And every single one of these was done by a different person. See how they're all wonderfully different, different styles, designs, and obviously made using different shading techniques? They'd all make wonderful museum pieces if you ask me.

 

 

Of course consistency doesn't equal sameness. Which is why it doesn't hurt to have the older stuff in there alongside the new.

[Guillotine]

...They absolutely do get rid of stuff, frequently. I'm not sure why you think they don't considering that we have lost stuff irreplaceably due to museums throwing stuff away.

 

And again, not only are these apple and oranges, they are not lost in the same way as those old works: perfect copies of the sprites are hosted elsewhere, while the old works are just GONE. Making these comparisons cheapens your point by making it clear that you're grasping at straws to justify your anger at something you liked being replaced.