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Sprite Updates

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On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 12:49 AM, HeatherMarie said:


 

Actually, I think your 'fact' is fairly subjective just like this entire discussion is. You don't know for sure that any random 'passing observer' is going to look at these old sprites and think 'oh man, that game really has a quality control issue, wouldn't want to join that!'. In fact, I can tell you for a *fact* that if the random passing observer was me, that would not be my reaction at all. I have deliberately joined online games in the past *because* of the old-school simple art. Because the game reminded me of those old computer games I used to play when I was a kid, and I like that. Because I actually often prefer simple minimalist art.


 

I'm not saying that *some* passing observers wouldn't think the way you are describing, but most certainly not all. And I'd like to think that if someone is actually interested in the game itself, then a tiny handful of older-style sprites is not going to keep them from playing, especially when the vast majority of sprites are not that style at all. I mean, I have a couple breeds I simply do *not* like the look of (and no, none of them are older breeds), but that doesn't stop me from playing a game I love.


 

(Also, I'm not sure what making enough money has to do with any of this, I've seen absolutely no hint that DC is in danger money-wise or that a handful of people possibly not playing would somehow damage the site. Unless TJ specifically says something about sprite quality directly affecting how much money the site is making, I really don't think it's fair to make that assumption.)

There are people in this thread, above your post who have said that a perceived lack of quality control put them off other games, so no: it's not just an opinion. It's an actual phenomenon that makes people choose, consciously or not, to avoid a site. I know I've not joined sites that initially interested me due to a lack of artistic consistency. It doesn't put off every potential member, obviously, but it does drive people away who might otherwise be interested.

 

Like. You can still think the old sprites were better. That's purely opinion and personal taste. But from a business standpoint, consistency with the house style is better because it generally brings in more than the change sheds.
 

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2 hours ago, Guillotine said:

There are people in this thread, above your post who have said that a perceived lack of quality control put them off other games, so no: it's not just an opinion. It's an actual phenomenon that makes people choose, consciously or not, to avoid a site. I know I've not joined sites that initially interested me due to a lack of artistic consistency. It doesn't put off every potential member, obviously, but it does drive people away who might otherwise be interested.

 

 

I don't believe I said it was just as opinion, I said it's subjective. Yes, there are people who may be turned off by older/simpler sprites. Yes, there are people who may even decide not to play a game because of it. Does that immediately mean they are right and everyone else is wrong? No, of course not. Does that mean those people should be catered to at the expense of already-loyal players who like the simpler sprites? .... That, only TJ can decide.

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If I thought that way I would leave over a few sprites from this year. But never over the dorsals or balloons. It is subjective, there's no getting away from that. And history does count.

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On 10/8/2018 at 2:57 PM, HeatherMarie said:

the Albino's awkward neck.

I'd be quite upset if that were 'fixed'! The Albinos have a really unique look and their strange, tense pose is part of what makes them one of my favorite sprites. Which is part of the problem with sprite updates - every sprite has little things that someone loves about it.

I get used to sprite updates, but never outright desire them. If there's a sprite you dislike... well, there are probably modern sprites you dislike too. As striking as the new Gold is, the old one was still cherishable, its obvious lack of standards even enhancing it like an antique. Not that I think updates are always a bad thing, just that they're usually not a good thing, either (exception is quick response to community backlash, such as the female Nilia).

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The ONLY noticeable sprite update that made me like the sprite more than before was the silvers.  For a rare dragon that was supposed to be desirable, I think it's fitting that they should look bright and fresh. 

 

But in general, I really prefer that the sprites stay the same, or only have teeny, tiny, unnoticeable updates.  I like a lot of the simplistic designs.  I love a lot of the sprites that people here are saying they want changed.  There's a lot of sprites I don't care for, but I know other people love them, and I would rather those sprites stay as they are so the people who love them can stay happy.  A lot of the newer dragon designs are very "busy" and it's hard to make out details.  Low-detail dragons (which tend to be older) are preferable to me, and much more visible in lineages.  I would like to keep simple designs as they are, and people who prefer the newer sprites can collect those. 

 

The new dragon releases after I joined the site were the fleshcrowns and 2-headed lindwyrms.  Nice sprites were already coming out.  But I liked many of the older, simple designs more (I've never cared for the lindwyrms, despite how smooth they look).  My attachment to pre-2013 dragons has nothing to do with nostalgia (there's a lot of the older designs I DON'T like), so to say that all new members who join are going to hate the older sprites is disingenuous. 

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21 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:


 

I don't believe I said it was just as opinion, I said it's subjective. Yes, there are people who may be turned off by older/simpler sprites. Yes, there are people who may even decide not to play a game because of it. Does that immediately mean they are right and everyone else is wrong? No, of course not. Does that mean those people should be catered to at the expense of already-loyal players who like the simpler sprites? .... That, only TJ can decide.

It's not the old sprites. It is specifically the contrast between the old sprites and the new house style. Stop deliberately missing my point.
 

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9 hours ago, Guillotine said:

It's not the old sprites. It is specifically the contrast between the old sprites and the new house style

This is exactly why some really old sprites (bright breasted wyverns, guardians of nature, sunsong amphipteres, are all from 2010!) don't need any updates.

 

I really don't understand the "you're just trying to take away every old sprite." OR the "you're just trying to take away the old style." Uh... no. Marrionetta, who worked on some of the ORIGINAL dragons (water dragons, storms, horses, waterhorses, yulebucks...) is STILL having stuff released in cave (Bautas, Mimic Pygmies are both recent). I say this because... the new stuff (to an extent) is literally the old stuff. 

 

The only thing that needs to be tweaked is for consistency's sake. If you put Bautas, Storms, Water Dragons, Horses, Mimic Pygmies, and Deep Sea Dragons, in front of me I'd have no problem saying, yeah, you know they all look like they came from the same game.

 

If you put dorsals, waterhorses (sorry guys), mints, mimic pygmies, bautas, and bright breasted wyverns in front of me I would have no idea what the heck the connection was. They don't look the same.

 

But not all old breeds are LIKE that. And the old "style," isn't the problem - because it's STILL being released today, and it looks WONDERFUL! Black Truffles are some of my favorite new releases, along with mimics. 

 

And for certain breeds, like the dinos, it shouldn't change because they can't breed, they're super rare, and they're clearly just a fun joke addition. They're just neat things to have on your scroll, they don't interact with other dragons in any way. 

 

However, old sprites like dorsals and waterhorses do interact with the other dragons. Therefore, they should all be semi-consistent. 

Edited by Alrexwolf

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57 minutes ago, Guillotine said:

It's not the old sprites. It is specifically the contrast between the old sprites and the new house style. Stop deliberately missing my point.
 

 

I am not deliberately missing anything. Okay, so it's the contrast. Some people like that. Some people *like* that there are a few simple old-school dragons still around, while newer more detailed dragons are also around. It doesn't matter how you want to word it, some people do not want this changed. Some people don't *want* sprite updates, whether it's because of the old sprites themselves or the contrast or whatever. And, again, are people who don't like that contrast right, and we are wrong? No. Some people don't like that contrast. Some people do. No group's opinion or viewpoint is more important then the other's. 

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My scroll lists Mysfytt as the artist for Black Truffle...  I am curious where it is stated about this "house style".  I would expect variety from a site that actively releases new artist's work instead of an in house staff of artists.  Though with much of the new stuff I am having trouble seeing the dragon rather then just a mythical beast like I run across in other sites when I do clicks at yarolds.  I'm starting to wonder if I'm still in dragon cave or was teleported into mythical creature cave.  I tried to get my better half to critique a recent release where I thought the features were contrary to what I would expect from the way the creature seemed to be moving.  All I got was a laugh it wasn't a dragon. 

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1 hour ago, Dracaena said:

My scroll lists Mysfytt as the artist for Black Truffle...  I am curious where it is stated about this "house style".  I would expect variety from a site that actively releases new artist's work instead of an in house staff of artists.  Though with much of the new stuff I am having trouble seeing the dragon rather then just a mythical beast like I run across in other sites when I do clicks at yarolds.  I'm starting to wonder if I'm still in dragon cave or was teleported into mythical creature cave.  I tried to get my better half to critique a recent release where I thought the features were contrary to what I would expect from the way the creature seemed to be moving.  All I got was a laugh it wasn't a dragon. 

I'm curious, what releases from the past years are you referring to?

All I can think of are last Halloween's Omen Wyrms and maybe the Melismor Dragon?

 

If we only had one type of dragon (four legs, two wings) without any creative features or variety to this form DC would be getting very, very boring pretty fast ...

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Melismor looks quite dragon-y to me - specifically reminds me of Fuchur.

All in all, what you think is a dragon or not quite much depends on your own cultural background, and how much you know about dragons and other creatures in pop culture and history.

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Ahhh ;; I'm so sorry to Mysfytt! I fixed my original post.

 

Still, Mysfytt's skills shine through time, too. Duotones are nearly 5 years old and they look rockin'.

 

It's about making sprites look like they belong as part of one universe, not about taking away the "old style." That was the point - sorry for the mistake.

 

I also think everything is still super dragon-y. Unless your definition of "dragon" is specifically western dragons slightly edited.

 

I think dragcave has a super unique more in that we're in a world where dragons have had an opportunity to fill ecological niches that, in our world, are not filled by reptiles due to their intelligence and magical abilities. They're not supposed to be a generic western species with subspecies of different types. They're supposed to be species who have had thousands - perhaps millions - of years diversifying as a semi-dominant genera. Kind of how iguanas, frogs, bats, sharks, and house cats can fall under the same umbrella (chordata), despite their obvious differences.

 

This also ties into why I think the semi-realistic style should be the standard. Have you ever seen an anatomy study? Or just a hand drawn scientific diagram in a journal?

 

Something like a dorsal doesn't look drawn by someone observing dragons directly. It looks like the renditions in illuminations; of someone telling someone who's cousin's wife's third eldest brother saw a live specimen ten years ago. And, while that would be a good style if DC was supposed to be set in a world like OURS, where dragons are mythos and we're drawing them from eyewitness accounts, it's not. 

 

It's like fixing those diagrams in old illuminations. If we never updated our knowledge of anatomy, we would still think elephants looked like ele.jpg

 

It's about making more accurate diagrams now that we have the skill and technology to do so, imo.

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9 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I am not deliberately missing anything. Okay, so it's the contrast. Some people like that. Some people *like* that there are a few simple old-school dragons still around, while newer more detailed dragons are also around. It doesn't matter how you want to word it, some people do not want this changed. Some people don't *want* sprite updates, whether it's because of the old sprites themselves or the contrast or whatever. And, again, are people who don't like that contrast right, and we are wrong? No. Some people don't like that contrast. Some people do. No group's opinion or viewpoint is more important then the other's. 

I'm one of the people who appreciate and love the old spirtes for what they are, a moment in time. ❤️ We need badges lol

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14 hours ago, Guillotine said:

It is specifically the contrast between the old sprites and the new house style.

 

This is the thing that's been bothering me most about sprite updates. Everyone is free to enjoy site art for different aspects of appeal- but by no means does personal opinion or favor negate the fact that certain species just do not look good next to each other, not in terms of style, but purely off the basis of inconsistent art. For example: Dorsal and Melismor. Both wingless, sleek dragons, but two very different levels of spritework. If I was a passing visitor, I would not assume they came from the same site. Having this level of difference between new and old art is, quite frankly, not good. 


Purple Dorsal adult Melismor female

 

 

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On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 3:57 AM, Dracaena said:

My scroll lists Mysfytt as the artist for Black Truffle...  I am curious where it is stated about this "house style".  I would expect variety from a site that actively releases new artist's work instead of an in house staff of artists.  Though with much of the new stuff I am having trouble seeing the dragon rather then just a mythical beast like I run across in other sites when I do clicks at yarolds.  I'm starting to wonder if I'm still in dragon cave or was teleported into mythical creature cave.  I tried to get my better half to critique a recent release where I thought the features were contrary to what I would expect from the way the creature seemed to be moving.  All I got was a laugh it wasn't a dragon.

The house style is stated both in what TJ chooses to release and in the guidelines for the Dragon Requests (seen here). TJ basically wants realistic pixel art done within certain confines, with dragons that do not deviate too far from being recognizably a dragon. DC's dragons have a wide range of limb assemblies, but you can generally tell that they're dragon-based. The biggest exceptions to that rule are generally older, like the Horses.
 

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On 10/17/2018 at 12:49 AM, Tetelestai said:

I'm one of the people who appreciate and love the old spirtes for what they are, a moment in time. ❤️ We need badges lol

I'm with this. I say again, history counts.

On 10/17/2018 at 5:12 AM, Kavalier said:

 

This is the thing that's been bothering me most about sprite updates. Everyone is free to enjoy site art for different aspects of appeal- but by no means does personal opinion or favor negate the fact that certain species just do not look good next to each other, not in terms of style, but purely off the basis of inconsistent art. For example: Dorsal and Melismor. Both wingless, sleek dragons, but two very different levels of spritework. If I was a passing visitor, I would not assume they came from the same site. Having this level of difference between new and old art is, quite frankly, not good. 


Purple Dorsal adult Melismor female

 

 

Why is it "not good"? Wherever you go, whatever you do, there is variety in life. That is good. I for one have no interest in a shedload of sprites that all look "alike". I love the evolution that shows here. It is not a "bad" look in the least. And as I said earlier, there are few pages where we see a lot of different sprites, and that applies particularly to new players.

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On 10/17/2018 at 12:23 AM, Alrexwolf said:

 

It's about making sprites look like they belong as part of one universe, not about taking away the "old style." That was the point - sorry for the mistake.

 

I also think everything is still super dragon-y. Unless your definition of "dragon" is specifically western dragons slightly edited.

 

It's like fixing those diagrams in old illuminations. If we never updated our knowledge of anatomy, we would still think elephants looked like ele.jpg

 

It's about making more accurate diagrams now that we have the skill and technology to do so, imo.

No-one in their right mind would update a lovely work of art like that. It would be ruined by making it "correct". I would far rather have that on my scroll than this:94698-050-F64C03A6.jpg thanks.

 

It's more about art than realism to me.

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okay but it's not like if the sprites get updated they disappear from existence never to be seen again.

 

y'all act like we would be straight up deleting a piece of art from the space time continuum. relax. the wiki will always have it no matter what. 

 

and, if the sprite urls would stay the same, you could even have them on your scrolls if you really found them so superior. 

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With this side by side comparison of the before and after red I realize even more what bothers me about it.  It's not just the change in shade of red (which I hate and ruins the contrast I used to have in my lineages) and the change in silhouette from the far wing coming forward (another black eye for my lineages).  The character of the pose has completely changed.  It was a fierce dragon ready to take on the world with coiled bunched energy ready for anything.  It's now a stiff legged nervous creature that isn't sure if it's safe to run. The wonderful energy of the tail is gone, the hock definition is gone, it's a similar looking dragon but it's not the same as it was.  It's the character that changes with the sprite updates that is truly upsetting.  Even the holly, which wasn't bad as far as the lot goes, lost the cute coy look he used to have.  I find the new one less appealing. 

 

Forget the idea of an option to show the old sprites on scrolls,  TJ shot that down in flames a few years back.  Seems like during the chrome...*cough*... silver update.

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"The character of the pose has completely changed.  It was a fierce dragon ready to take on the world with coiled bunched energy ready for anything.  It's now a stiff legged nervous creature that isn't sure if it's safe to run. The wonderful energy of the tail is gone, the hock definition is gone, it's a similar looking dragon but it's not the same as it was."

 

I just don't understand this. Looking at them side by side, it's... literally the same thing. How does that glaring eye, pointy teeth, and even more defined, outstretched claws look nervous or stiff legged?

 

The only thing I think is bad on the new red is the near back leg - it looks broken, but that's because of the shading. It's exactly the same, except with depth, and less squished. Also, the only way you would see both hocks like that is if the dragon was in a full side view - which the old red is not. It's not correct. 

 

Personally, though, I find the choice to update reds first baffling. They're definitely not the worst offenders. They just look a little... off. 

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2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Why is it "not good"?


Because there is a significant difference in quality between two items that represent that same product. If I were a showing a portfolio to a prospective employer, I would not use old pieces that cannot and do not reflect my current ability- even if I liked that piece when it was made. It would no longer be something I'd want to represent me, because it shows inconsistency between the other pieces I have, and portrays the idea that I am attached to work purely for the sake of nostalgia, and not on the merit of my ability to which it was made. You do not walk in to a meeting wearing a dress shoe on one foot and a beat up, half-tied sneaker on the other. As a business owner, you do not put out old, obviously outdated stock while you have countless better items in the back, just because you prefer the one old thing over several new. It's selfish, it's shoddyand it gives onlookers and potential costumers a misguided idea of what they should expect.

Some older sprites would likely not even necessitate entire revamps. The occasional touch up? Sure, maybe. But we cannot sit here and say that leaving blatantly broken sprites the way they are is okay, since a handful of people still like them -- because it's not. We are allowed to love the things for what they are, but it is unwise to keep them on a pedestal. Doing so does not allow them to change, for better or for worse. Defunct sprites have not ceased to exist because they were updated. They are still a part of DC. We are still allowed to cherish them, put them in our profiles, in signatures, avatars, etc etc. - but we as a userbase cannot cling onto them and suffocate the progress and betterment of the site because we prefer how the sprites looked 10 years ago. 

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5 hours ago, Alrexwolf said:

okay but it's not like if the sprites get updated they disappear from existence never to be seen again.

 

y'all act like we would be straight up deleting a piece of art from the space time continuum. relax. the wiki will always have it no matter what. 

 

and, if the sprite urls would stay the same, you could even have them on your scrolls if you really found them so superior. 

 

....... But they do disappear. That's exactly what sprite updates do, they *replace* the existing sprite, the existing sprite is no more. And no, the wiki is not an acceptable loophole. I personally take screenshots of every single dragon on my scroll (seriously, it takes me a full week, every 6 months) just in case they go poof in the name of updates, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that the old sprite can be found off-site somewhere or on someone's computer is completely beside the point. Some of us like *this game* because of those sprites. Some of us like playing DC so much in part because of those old beloved sprites. It's them being part of the game that we enjoy. Being able to view them somewhere else is irrelevant to the argument here. We like them in this game. We like them on our scrolls, where they've been for years.

 

6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

No-one in their right mind would update a lovely work of art like that. It would be ruined by making it "correct". I would far rather have that on my scroll than this: thanks.

(snipped picture)

It's more about art than realism to me.

 

This this this. The sprites on our scroll are like cave paintings, or treasured paintings that hang in museums. Sure we as a society may have better understanding of anatomy and better ability to draw detail, but do we go painting over every single old piece of art? Of course not. Old art is treasured. The Mona Lisa, The Last Supper, The Starry Night, those old pieces of art are treasured and loved, not destroyed and done away with in the name of progress. If we were talking about scientific drawings in a textbook then yeah of course they should be updated, but we aren't. We are talking about art in an art-based collection game.

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6 hours ago, Alrexwolf said:

okay but it's not like if the sprites get updated they disappear from existence never to be seen again.

 

y'all act like we would be straight up deleting a piece of art from the space time continuum. relax. the wiki will always have it no matter what. 

 

and, if the sprite urls would stay the same, you could even have them on your scrolls if you really found them so superior. 

There is no way TJ would go for that, nor should he. . We should not have to go to an off-site page to see the sprites we love. It's not so much a matter of superior as loss of history and of prized possessions. We all save our kids' pictures on the fridge, and don't bin them as the child's artwork improves. I am totally with Heather Marie here.

 

5 hours ago, Dracaena said:

With this side by side comparison of the before and after red I realize even more what bothers me about it.  It's not just the change in shade of red (which I hate and ruins the contrast I used to have in my lineages) and the change in silhouette from the far wing coming forward (another black eye for my lineages).  The character of the pose has completely changed.  It was a fierce dragon ready to take on the world with coiled bunched energy ready for anything.  It's now a stiff legged nervous creature that isn't sure if it's safe to run. The wonderful energy of the tail is gone, the hock definition is gone, it's a similar looking dragon but it's not the same as it was.  It's the character that changes with the sprite updates that is truly upsetting.  Even the holly, which wasn't bad as far as the lot goes, lost the cute coy look he used to have.  I find the new one less appealing. 

 

Forget the idea of an option to show the old sprites on scrolls,  TJ shot that down in flames a few years back.  Seems like during the chrome...*cough*... silver update.

The reds lost all their character with the update. How many of us look anything like anyone deemed perfect anyway? Our class are a part of what makes each of us special.

 

And - I can't scroll back on my tablet - to whoever it was said that differences in "product" matter - this isn't a clothing store, and even if it were, loads of such stores retain older styles because of popular demand. This game is not some advertising site. What a horrid thought.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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6 hours ago, Alrexwolf said:

I just don't understand this. Looking at them side by side, it's... literally the same thing.

It's the legs. The Red used to look like it was ready to pounce - you can see it at the legs' angles. The new one is just standing there as if it just took a step backwards.

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