Sprite Updates

[Ruby Eyes]

7 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

Why should the collection experience be hindered just because some people optionally choose to use the lineage feature, KNOWING FULL WELL that sprite updates may happen.

Why should my lineage breeding be hindered and, additionally, retro-actively rendered useless because YOU optionally choose not to breed?

[blockEdragon]

I was about to type a lengthy response to my last disagreement to this circular taste-flame-war but then I had an idea I wish I had months ago so let me take this in a different direction, I still feel the updates are the better choice as said above but why do we even have to choose?!

 

I know it's harder to add options but it's better for every side if we get them. If we can't have display options so we can just pick and choose what we want to see when we look a the sprites why can't we keep looking for a better alternative that the majority of both parties can be happy with?

 

What if instead of getting rid of sprites they remaster them and release them as a separate variant while the old sprite just continues to exist? A new addition instead of a replacement.

Like a subspecies if you will, no one will care about the hand-wavy nature of it all it's a fantasy site and the hand-wave would only exist to solve the update issue, make the new version of equal rarity, give the eggs slightly different descriptions, and give them the same BSAs, same descriptions (maybe with like a line about subspecies added at the end or some garbage) and let everyone enjoy updates and non-updates in peace.

 

In fact I think i'm gonna start the thread proposing the idea and see how it goes.

 

Sidenote:

2 hours ago, Rally Vincent said:

Why make such a thread if it won't have any effect? We had this discussion several times before, and the changes happened and will happen again. My opinion on this subjects stands, I don't like them. Let me illustrate it with an exaggerated example of an artist who thought a sprite update was needed:

 

 

He actually had a skin condition called Vitiligo that causes light patches to appear on the skin, eventually it got so bad that he/his doctors felt making it lighter was the only option.

here (an info page on the condition)

It was a health issue, "The sprite" would have changed either way.

Edited October 9, 2018 by blockEdragon

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

10 minutes ago, Starbit-Plushie said:

If you don't like a particular sprite just don't collect it. Nobody is forcing you to. Just leave it alone for those of us who do. As I said before, you wouldn't repaint the Mona Lisa just to give her eyebrows.

 

I'm going to quote myself from the Dorsal thread here because of how unacceptable this argument is:

 

On 10/8/2018 at 9:58 AM, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

I’m gonna say it again, but telling people to just “not collect a dragon because you don’t like it” is not a fair statement. This is a collectibles game - so many people play to catch ‘em all, and for a dragon like the Dorsal that has a rarer variant, that is a dragon people want to be collecting! I don’t have a single Dorsal - given, I’ve not been playing for as long as some people, but 4 years(ish) is a long time to not have a single member of a breed. I remember seeing one recently but it was gone in an instant. I used to think of them as common, but they’re damn elusive! I’m a collector - not quite as dead-set on collecting them all as my sister is - but I want them all one day. A purple and a red. Telling us to just not collect them is so unfair.

 

[Starbit]

So it boils down to this; you want to collect all the dragon sprites, but until the dorsals are up to your standards you won't collect them.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

9 minutes ago, Starbit-Plushie said:

So it boils down to this; you want to collect all the dragon sprites, but until the dorsals are up to your standards you won't collect them.

 

... No, it boils down to; I can't collect them. Because I've never seen one. I explained that. I explicitly state, actually, that I want to collect them, but I can't, because they have a rare variant so everyone scoops them up before I do.

 

I do, however, believe that for such a rare and desirable dragon, that the art looks a little lacklustre. A little flat, a little wonky here and there, and that I believe fixing that wonkiness - in a way exactly how the Holly was done - would make it shine just that little bit more.

Edited October 9, 2018 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[Starbit]

I've been cave hunting the last couple of days and seen plenty of dorsals that have lasted more than a few refreshes. Plus purple cbs are fairly common in the AP. Dorsals have never been rare and desirable, unless its a CB Red. Saying you 'can't collect' dorsals is downright silly.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

13 minutes ago, Starbit-Plushie said:

I've been cave hunting the last couple of days and seen plenty of dorsals that have lasted more than a few refreshes. Plus purple cbs are fairly common in the AP. Dorsals have never been rare and desirable, unless its a CB Red. Saying you 'can't collect' dorsals is downright silly.

 

Hm, not so silly at all really: I have only ever seen one in the biomes, because I don't AP hunt, and it went before I blinked. If you see them, that's great for you, but I haven't been so lucky. Either way, whether I can grab one or not isn't at all what matters.

 

You say you liked the Holly update. So, if the Dorsal was done exactly like that: literally just fixing the area of wonkiness and giving a little spice to the shading, how would you feel about that?

 

 

Honestly, it's what I've been advocating for all along. I thoroughly enjoy every update we've had, because I like the sprites to have depth in shading, with attention to little details like scales and different textures, and of course fixing bad anatomy. While I don't personally like the look of the Golds now, I way prefer them to the older sprite, which looked somewhat out of place and gaudy in my eyes. But I fully understand that changing poses and designs too drastically can negatively affect what so many people care about: lineages. I get why they don't want those lineage tiles thrown off, especially after 8 (or more) years. So updates like the Holly, like the Neotropical and the Whiptail - unobtrusive updates - are welcome in my eyes, so as not to disturb lineage-builders, but to just make sprites look fresh.

Edited October 9, 2018 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[purplehaze]

1 hour ago, Alrexwolf said:

There are people who don't play this game for lineages. Lineages are NOT ALL THERE IS to the game. I hardly ever breed. Why should the collection experience be hindered just because some people optionally choose to use the lineage feature, KNOWING FULL WELL that sprite updates may happen.

So we just shouldn't any of us be bothered breeding, I guess, so that we will never be disappointed when a sprite in our lineage changes? As I said before, if breeding and lineages were not a thing I would have gotten bored and quit this site a long time ago. And I dare say there are MANY others who feel the same. So you would just write us all off because we don't want the same things you want from the site? 

 

While I honestly like the legacy sprites and would be perfectly happy to see them all unchanged, I really don't object to a lot of the minor updates that have happened.  But the problem is that what seems minor to some is not all that minor to others. I have gotten used to the Silver update, but the color did change enough that it made lineages look very different, even though the pose was changed very little. The Sunset update may have been technically improved, but I agree with whoever it was who said that the rich deep colors of the original were more appealing. Adding lighter highlights and shading just spoiled that for me. Who gets to decide what is a minor update? Usually we don't even know an update is in progress until it is sprung on us.

Edited October 9, 2018 by purplehaze

[blah]

The way I see it, perfection is not what makes dragons (or anything really) desirable and/or lovable.

 

The Leaning Tower of Pisa is world famous and beloved because it is leaning. 

[tjekan]

1 hour ago, Alrexwolf said:

-what if my scroll goals are to collect 10 of every dragon. 

 

Then you collect 10 dragons you think are ugly. I have dragons whose sprites I don't like on my scroll too, and I don't agitate to have them removed from the game so that I don't have to feel obligated to have them there. My scroll-completism is my own issue to manage.

 

The flaw in the "it's not fair to make me collect ugly dragons" theory is that there are thousands of users and not everyone agrees on what makes a dragon good-looking or not. If I think white dragons are gorgeous and you think they're terrible, while you think bleeding moon dragons are gorgeous and I think they're terrible, then we're both of us in the exact same boat stuck with a dragon we don't care for on our scrolls, right? So why would it be an OK answer to turn the dragon I like into one you like better?

 

We all have the exact same choice here: either decide not to collect a dragon if we really don't like its sprite, or collect it anyway and find some other way to enjoy it.

 

Not to mention, there's also:

-what if my scroll goals are to collect the sprites I like the most and breed them into lineages?

-what if my scroll goals are to have a complete history of my years playing DC and the sudden disappearance of two of the first four sprites I ever collected makes me unhappy?

 

There are a lot of different players out there with a lot of different scroll goals. Either they're all valuable or none are.

 

[Silverwatermist]

For those saying that this is a collection game, that some people's scroll goals may be to collect 10 of each dragon or to catch 'em all Pokemon style and thus the older dragons you personally feel have anatomy/shading issues could be updated to "current standards":

If your goal is to catch 'em all or collect 10 of each dragon... aren't you, by default, always going to be collecting at least some dragons that you don't like the look of? Dragons that aren't your favorite? Dragons in a color you personally don't find appealing? Brand new dragons you still think look a little wonky even though they're new and aren't going to be updated? Because the point of picking up their egg wouldn't be that you're collecting them for the look of the dragon: The number of them that you own is your goal, no matter what they look like or how you personally feel about them, and old dragons that you believe need to be updated aside, you're likely already collecting some dragons you don't care for just because it's your goal to do so.

 

Of course you'd like the dragon to appeal to you if you're going to collect it anyway!! But some dragons already don't appeal to you, I'm sure, while still appealing to other people, and for collection goals, the number would be the goal so you'd be collecting that number of them no matter what. Whereas for those who breed their dragons, the look of the dragon, the precise exact position of its head/body, and the EXACT current colors are what those people basing their entire lineages around, so even small changes (even ones you deem necessary or badly needed) can completely throw off all of their planning, potentially altering years of hard work that was based mostly or completely on those visual factors. Even if small changes are made or fixes to anatomy occur, the part of the dragon that shows up in the lineage box can suddenly look very different and throw off the factors that made that person choose that dragon and work hard on that lineage--whereas if your goal is pure collecting no matter what, that goal is not effected to that level by sprite updates.

(For the record, I'm sort of on the fence about sprite updates, leaning more towards the side of only fixing anatomy issues and not touching shading, highlights, anything major about head positioning, or colors, that way lineages won't be as effected. Because I can see why here and there, a small update might be necessary or desired, especially if undertaken by the original spriter! But the argument about collection > lineages for this particular discussion didn't sound like a fair one and I felt I needed to say something about it.)

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

39 minutes ago, tjekan said:

We all have the exact same choice here: either decide not to collect a dragon if we really don't like its sprite, or collect it anyway and find some other way to enjoy it.

 

That's not even the point though - even if I decide not to collect a sprite because I don't like it (which I won't ever do, by the way), it doesn't change the fact that the sprite still exists. Whether or not I have the sprite, it doesn't actually change the fundamental thing that bothers me - dragons being anatomically incorrect. I mentioned in the Dorsal thread that my personal belief (which I am in no way trying to actively force on others) is that the site looking uniform is more preferable than having some sprites being way under-shaded and others being nicely detailed. There are a lot of species I don't yet have, whether I like them or not, but I still wish for them to all to have correct anatomy at the very least.

[tjekan]

33 minutes ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

That's not even the point though - even if I decide not to collect a sprite because I don't like it (which I won't ever do, by the way), it doesn't change the fact that the sprite still exists. Whether or not I have the sprite, it doesn't actually change the fundamental thing that bothers me - dragons being anatomically incorrect. I mentioned in the Dorsal thread that my personal belief (which I am in no way trying to actively force on others) is that the site looking uniform is more preferable than having some sprites being way under-shaded and others being nicely detailed. There are a lot of species I don't yet have, whether I like them or not, but I still wish for them to all to have correct anatomy at the very least.

 

If it were possible to do only that--fix an anatomical error without changing the feel of the sprite--I would not mind it. It has happened a few times in the past. But usually, what happens is that the spriters can't help reshading and reworking the whole sprite, and I end up perceiving something significant being lost in the translation.

 

The Michael Jackson plastic surgery example is a bit OTT for me, but the sprite reshadings do sometimes remind me of using Photoshop. One little tweak does make you look better. In fact, each time you make a little tweak, you think it makes you look better. Maybe each one really was an improvement on paper, but after a few dozen of them, all the life has gone out of your portrait and you don't look like yourself anymore, much less a more attractive version of yourself.

 

The spirit of the artwork is also important, not just the technical detail. And in artwork this small, I think it's really tough to change a lot of things without losing the spirit of that artwork. It's impossible to reshade someone's face without subtly changing their facial expression. How much more so for a face that is only a few pixels large.

 

I guess the only statement I'd really like to enter into the logs before calling it a day is that replacing a piece of artwork is almost NEVER solely a question of improving it. You're improving some things, and damaging others. Something meaningful is almost always lost and it really needs to be carefully considered whether that is worth it.

[Silverwatermist]

43 minutes ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

That's not even the point though - even if I decide not to collect a sprite because I don't like it (which I won't ever do, by the way), it doesn't change the fact that the sprite still exists. Whether or not I have the sprite, it doesn't actually change the fundamental thing that bothers me - dragons being anatomically incorrect. I mentioned in the Dorsal thread that my personal belief (which I am in no way trying to actively force on others) is that the site looking uniform is more preferable than having some sprites being way under-shaded and others being nicely detailed. There are a lot of species I don't yet have, whether I like them or not, but I still wish for them to all to have correct anatomy at the very least.

 

I think wanting sprites to have correct anatomy is totally fair, I usually do too. But when it comes to the site looking uniform, I think everyone might have different opinions of what that means. For some it might mean all dragons should have the same shading style, for some it might mean that dragons should have fixes to correct truly "off" anatomy, and to others it means both or means even more changes than that. But I'm of the opinion that as long as anatomy isn't broken--AKA, limbs and spines looking twisted, stretched, or positioned in impossible ways--that shading style, level of detail, and level of realism is kind of irrelevant for older dragons? (And in my opinion, even for newer ones so long as they have a strong concept/design?) Of course if the original spriter wants to change it, then so be it because it's their art and their choice, but the simplicity or cartoonish vibe of some of the older dragons is precisely where their charm comes from and is exactly what gives them their character and makes some players so fond of them. I actually don't want all the dragons on DC to look realistic/uniform whether via shading or by overall design/concept. I like that we have some comic relief dragons like Cheeses and Dinos (I don't even collect them but I like that they exist), I like that some dragons look sillier or more "old school" like Balloons, I like that some have a flatter, more graphic look kind of like Daydreams but also like that some have tons of detail like the new Pipios, and I like that some dragons are less focused on anatomical detail and more on coloration like Nebulas. And that variety would all be lessened if each of those sprites was given a uniform level of shading and detail. I'm also not a huge fan of very busy-looking sprites, so maybe that's why some older ones appeal to me--their simplicity--but don't get me wrong, I absolutely see value in doing some small (or even large) anatomy tweaks, like if a dragon's legs are positioned in a completely impossible way for example! I just disagree with the general idea that extra work should definitely/objectively be done to make that dragon look uniform with everything else, because I agree with tjekan: When you change something like shading or highlights on a sprite, it alters the original character of the sprite. Even if the news version looks lovely, it wouldn't necessarily look so to a good number of people who collected it and built lineages around it due to that original vibe it gave off, which will always be altered after changes of that nature. Other long-time players will like and appreciate the update, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that the "spirit" of the art has a high chance of changing.

So personally, I think updates that might alter the character, vibe, and charm of a sprite for those who have spent years collecting it... those changes should be weighed carefully, and not done solely in the spirit of making everything uniform on DC, because some people definitely like or love that things are not uniform. Nostalgia and familiarity are part of what makes some people feel at home here--and this site/forum is an escape for many--so when that gets chipped away at by reworking old sprites for uniformity's sake, people are going to get defensive or be wary of how it will affect what they have on their scroll so far, and how it will affect how they feel when they look at a given sprite. Some old sprites might inspire the imagination because they leave some details up to the viewer, or just have that old "familiar" look from people's childhoods or years past, so extra shading and highlights that cement the details more, or a total update that looks more "current" art-wise, chip away at that experience for some players. Just some extra food for thought.

So pure anatomical fixes of broken limbs, and tiny tweaks like darkening or lightening some pixels so that we can better see a dragon's eye(s) or mouth? I'm on board with that! But shading/highlights or reposing a dragon should be considered carefully because something else might be lost along the way that drew people to collecting/breeding it in the first place. The spirit of the original artwork--not just the colors and the general look of the dragon and making sure the anatomy is right, but the character and aura that original little piece of art gives off--should be kept in mind when suggesting changes. I don't think it's inherent that that given spirit will be lost by making changes, either, so I'm not trying to completely shoot down what you or others who like updates have said in here, Grey, but I can see why other people are worried is all.

[Dracaena]

15 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

I have a hypothetical question:

 

Say one day, one of the artists revamps one of their old release dragons - they realised how much their art has improved over time and their old sprite no longer reflects how they envisioned them to look, and they revamp it almost totally. Whether it has a different pose or not, all the anatomy and shading gets a complete update to look like newer releases, with the reason being that the old sprite no longer depicts what the artist wanted them to look like.

 

What would peoples’ opinions on that be? I’ve noticed a few people saying that if it’s the creator’s wishes then it’s more okay than just randomly reworking someone else’s work just to fit standards. (I guess that’s kinda like what happened with the Red because Silvanon worked on them both)

We've been there ,done that on Nilias.  It was a fiasco and I don't collect them anymore.  The only saving grace for me was it was announced before halloween so I didn't kill myself trying to find a mate for the blueberry pancake.  This was a breed I thought was cute but wasn't heavily invested with on lineage making or collecting.

 

It cut to the quick what happened to the silvers, they were my babies.  But though they seem similar to many people, to me they lost the essence of what an eastern dragon is.  The male can now easily pass for arsani and nobody has ever called the skinny arsani an eastern.  I also think many people don't understand about the metal silver. It does tarnish readily exposed to air and if you want that shiny white it has to be polished frequently or else it's coated silver if it doesn't tarnish.  I love pure silver jewelry with character, the tarnish in the crevices makes the design pop out.  I really wish I knew what happened to my silver dragon pendant I once had, that would be closer to what I lost with the silver sprite update.  I call them chrome dragons now.

 

My autumn lineages lost it with that update.  The female is a washed out version of her former self in the name of proper shading.  I loved that rich chocolate brown she used to be.

 

I don't think I am alone among lineage builders who have been disappointed with "updating".  We seem to be a vanishing breed.  It's getting to be the devil to find lineage swaps and the even gen community used to be vibrant when I joined.  It's a ghost town now.

 

I'm still trying to find things to take the place of the silver checkers I used to work on.  I expect with the continual "sprite updates"  I'll eventually decide it's too much for me as well and leave too.  Guess you'll have to hope there are enough pokemon type collectors to keep The Cave afloat.  It's the dragons I came for, I don't play other adoptable games, never had any interest in them.  But I now realize my original thinking of collecting dragons (virtual) I like without having to dust them on the shelf and save space was very flawed.  I never expected they would be taken away from me when it wasn't because the game closed down.  I might just go back to figurine collecting,  nobody repos those.

[HeatherMarie]

5 hours ago, Alrexwolf said:

 

-BSAs

-Hybrids

-what if my scroll goals are to collect 10 of every dragon. 

 

There are people who don't play this game for lineages. Lineages are NOT ALL THERE IS to the game. I hardly ever breed. Why should the collection experience be hindered just because some people optionally choose to use the lineage feature, KNOWING FULL WELL that sprite updates may happen.

 

 

I honestly don't understand your outlook here, and I really don't want to be rude in my reply but I honestly don't understand.

You seem to be focused on collecting sprites. That's what your playstyle seems to be. You seem to be saying that your playstyle is negatively influenced by certain older breeds looking out of date and such. So you want those older breeds to be updated so that you can feel better about collecting them. Am I correct in all of that?

 

But. Many other user's playstyles *do* include lineages. Of course it's not all there is to the game. But neither is collecting. Collecting isn't the end-all-be-all, and neither is lineages and breeding. You want things to be changed to better suit your specific playstyle, but you don't seem to be thinking or caring about the other playstyles that those changes will negatively affect. Your playstyle is not the only one around, and is not the only valid way to play the game. A 'collect 10 of every dragon' playstyle is in no way better or more important then a playstyle that focuses primarily on lineage-building. 

 

I understand wanting to make more breeds more appealing to yourself, make it more fun to collect that breed because it looks better then it used to. I get that. But when other people's game experience will be directly affected by the changes you want, that needs to be taken into consideration. Collecting 10 of every dragon is a completely fine scroll goal, but so is lineage-building. Implementing large changes that directly benefit one subset of users while directly hurting other subsets of users... That's something that really needs to be thought hard about, because maybe it's really not worth it to alienate all those other users for the sake of pleasing some.

 

One of the big reasons I've enjoyed this game for so long is that, in general, the game doesn't push certain playstyles. There is nothing in-game that penalizes you if you don't want to collect every single breed, or don't want to make lineages, or want to keep all your dragons unnamed. There are tons of different ways to play this game. I'd really like that neutrality to stay, as much as possible. I don't want sprites drastically changing to please one style of play while hurting other styles of play. 

 

(As a side note, for the past two years I've been focused on collecting messy lineages. I often participate in mass-breeds like BSAs and holidaykin and such, but I'm careful to not breed my super-messies to the AP because I'm very aware that a lot of users don't like messies. I play a certain way, prefer a certain type of lineage, but I know that many others don't and I wouldn't want people to get mad at tons of messies in the AP because of me. I want to be able to play the way I want, but I don't want it to affect other players who have different ways of playing. I see a similar issue with this whole sprite update thing.)

[Alrexwolf]

The encyclopedia, and therefore the market now, don't necessarily punish but reward for collecting every breed. Yes, I know you CAN view other dragons - but unless you have a friend or forum account, there's no way to view other accounts, period.

 

My point is that not everyone's play style includes lineages; but everyone's play style does include the sprites themselves, no matter what.

 

There is no agreement made that sprites will stay the same. You (general you) are working on lineages at your own risk of the sprites changing at any time - and you are aware of this. You can't hogtie progress of a game because you want to do something you know full well can change at any moment.

 

Like, most games with paid currency - you spend money wity no guarentees the site will even keep operating. The difference here is you're spending time, not money, but you are willingly investing that time with no promise that your efforts will stay the same. Should they? Maybe, maybe not, it depends on how you look at it. But they don't HAVE to. 

[Brekke]

The changes to anatomy seem to be making everything angular and off-putting.  The feel of the old red--it was just rounded and curvy and friendly--it just felt right.  Hands down my favorite sprite was the seasonal hatchling--they were just as cute as dumplings--all curves and rounded shapes.  Now they are flat and angular--I think the updates look flatter rather than more 3-D.  And why why WHY take away the trailing the leaves and snow crystals from the seasonal hatchlings?  They added so much to the charm--that had nothing to do with anatomy.  Why take their trailing leaves/buds/snowflakes away?  It makes absolutely no sense.

 

Here's the thing that gets brought up again and again--even among the brand new dragons, everyone has at least one that they're not crazy about.  I can't understand how you can put up with some of the new ones being something you don't like and don't think fits, but you feel the need to change all the old ones.  Why not just accept that you won't like all the dragons?  That's absolutely inevitable--you will never like every sprite. So why not just leave the old ones alone and accept that you don't like them in the same way you don't like the one from 6 months ago or whatever.

 

This is a true impasse--neither side will ever budge because it's an argument over something really fundamental to each side of the debate.  There is no real compromise possible.  You either update or you don't--there's no in between.  Most seem to think seasonal hatchlings were merely tweaked, but to me, they're ruined.  We have to live and let live, respect each other, and some of us just have to move on to other things when the site ruins our lineages or hatchling armies.  That's life, I guess.

[Rally Vincent]

12 hours ago, blockEdragon said:

Sidenote:

He actually had a skin condition called Vitiligo that causes light patches to appear on the skin, eventually it got so bad that he/his doctors felt making it lighter was the only option.

here (an info page on the condition)

It was a health issue, "The sprite" would have changed either way.

 

I assume he also had a medicinal condition that made it necessary to do plastic surgery on his nose? Would his nose have changed either way?

 

He would have gone thrugh with all he did no matter the pretense. The cause may have been medicinal, but psychological, not physical.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Rally Vincent

[Ruby Eyes]

11 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

Whether or not I have the sprite, it doesn't actually change the fundamental thing that bothers me - dragons being anatomically incorrect.

I would like to point out that dragons - all of these - are actually fantasy. Stranger creatures than dragons do exist in this world, some more, some less able to survive the world as it is today, but ... Do we really need so much realism on a site about fantasy creatures?

 

13 hours ago, blockEdragon said:

I was about to type a lengthy response to my last disagreement to this circular taste-flame-war

Eh, I just threw back their own argument to them, because it does apply to both sides. Equal rights and so on.

 

13 hours ago, blockEdragon said:

... but why do we even have to choose?!

 

[...]

 

In fact I think i'm gonna start the thread proposing the idea and see how it goes.

I did suggest adding new sprites as sort of alts further up in this thread, but thanks for starting a new thread about it

[Gluria]

15 hours ago, tjekan said:

 

Then you collect 10 dragons you think are ugly.

 

Exactly, that's what I do.

 

I have a scroll goal of 4 CB pairs of every breed (except Metallics, there I settle with 2 pairs). I have 4 CB pairs of several breeds I don't like. Mostly because I dislike of the way the sprite looks, like Dorsals (they would be fine with a Sprite update), Waterhorses, Waterwalkers, Balloon, Black Tea ... those are all breeds that I don't really like and I'd never to a breeding project with them. But I have my 4 CB pairs.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

5 hours ago, Ruby Eyes said:

I would like to point out that dragons - all of these - are actually fantasy. Stranger creatures than dragons do exist in this world, some more, some less able to survive the world as it is today, but ... Do we really need so much realism on a site about fantasy creatures?

 

This is an argument that's been around for so long, and always gets debunked.

 

A] Yes, strange creatures do exist in the real world. That's fine. If a dragon concept is created inspired by that creature, with that funky anatomy, then that's fine. I'm trying to think of any animal in real life whose anatomy wouldn't be allowed on the site, and I'm failing. I can, however, think of dragons on this site whose anatomy functions even though it doesn't really have a direct real-life anatomical-counterpart. Baikalas have huge wing-like fins and no back legs - the closest I can possibly draw them to is maybe sea lions? Oh, and they have two heads. All in all, DC fully acknowledges that it's a fantasy site, and has two-headed creatures which biologically reproduce two-headed creatures, which doesn't happen in real-life nature without genetic anomalies - as in, they aren't supposed to happen - so DC actually does incorporate fantasy elements into it, but they're still realistic and anatomically-supported.

 

B] Incorrect anatomy is not solved by the site being fantasy-based. A Dorsal realistically wouldn't be able to use that raised front leg given the fact it's got a huge kink in it, nor stand on those back legs. Fantasy, or magic, aren't acceptable excuses for something being completely unable to stand in nature. I think TJ himself said this, but even if he didn't, it's said often enough by the in-cave artists in Dragon Requests, that anatomical correctness is what the site strives for. It strives for making sense. Valkemare is its own world - yes, dragons aren't actually real, but in this world they are, and they would be able to walk and fly just how Earth animals would. Which requires functioning anatomy.

Edited October 10, 2018 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[Ruby Eyes]

2 minutes ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

This is an argument that's been around for so long, and always gets debunked.

Has it? I've brought it up so often, but you're the first to actually respond to it.

 

Um ... it seems to me like the majority of dragon sprites have raised a front leg? *missing context*

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

13 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Has it? I've brought it up so often, but you're the first to actually respond to it.

 

Um ... it seems to me like the majority of dragon sprites have raised a front leg? *missing context*

 

Not necessarily in this concept, but in plenty of places around the site, particularly in Dragon Requests. It’s not a new argument, is what I mean.

 

Also I’m unsure as to what you mean by your second point.

[olympe]

33 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Has it? I've brought it up so often, but you're the first to actually respond to it.

 

Um ... it seems to me like the majority of dragon sprites have raised a front leg? *missing context*

The problem with the dorsal's raised front leg is this: It's broken.

If you compare it to the front leg the dorsal is actually standing on, the wrist is in a very different place than the bend in the raised front leg. Because the raised leg bends somewhere in the middle of the lower arm. Not to mention it has a serious case of thick-thin-thick issue and looks rather noodly, further hinting at an injury. Maybe that's why the dorsal keeps this front leg raised in the first place?

Anyway, I have my doubts about every single dorsal suffering from the very same injury all the time, so there really is some lack of common sense happening, if not lack of realism.

 

And, yes, the "it's fantasy" and "because magic!!!1!" arguments have been debunked so many times, it's not even funny any more.

 

Edited to add: While DC has quite some variety in anatomy, I have yet to see a dragon with insectoid, arachnid or even mollusk anatomy. All dragons on here are based on some kind of vertebrate - reptilian, mammalian and avian mostly.

Edited October 10, 2018 by olympe