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Many of us consider this a collection game, collecting the different types of sprites is appealing, so yes it is rather like going to an art museum. I want to see picasso and turner and rembrandt and dali and renoir, not just a room full of french impressionist paintings.

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9 minutes ago, Tawanda001 said:

Many of us consider this a collection game, collecting the different types of sprites is appealing, so yes it is rather like going to an art museum. I want to see picasso and turner and rembrandt and dali and renoir, not just a room full of french impressionist paintings.

 

That's a GREAT way of putting it. I want to see the cave's history, not a rewriting of it.

 

1 hour ago, Guillotine said:

...They absolutely do get rid of stuff, frequently. I'm not sure why you think they don't considering that we have lost stuff irreplaceably due to museums throwing stuff away.

 

And again, not only are these apple and oranges, they are not lost in the same way as those old works: perfect copies of the sprites are hosted elsewhere, while the old works are just GONE. Making these comparisons cheapens your point by making it clear that you're grasping at straws to justify your anger at something you liked being replaced.

 

And if they do get rid - I think they shouldn't, on the whole. Art galleries - which was what I cited - less so, I think.

 

I don't like all the old sprites, and I even more dislike some of last year's, in particular. But that's not the same as saying they should go. I can't stand Michelangelo's David - but I'd defend to the death its right to stand there and annoy me :)

 

Having the old sprites in the wiki isn't the same as the ones gone from my lineages. (That is disastrous grammar, but I shall leave it !) If one plans a lineage based on the look of the sprites, it is painful when that linage suddenly completely changes its appearance. Much as I love the new golds in and of themselves, I had lines with the medallion ones that don't look nice any more. And the thing with the nilias was a catastrophe for a lot of people's lines.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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On 1/12/2019 at 11:29 AM, Tawanda001 said:

Many of us consider this a collection game, collecting the different types of sprites is appealing, so yes it is rather like going to an art museum. I want to see picasso and turner and rembrandt and dali and renoir, not just a room full of french impressionist paintings.

 

You get that with the different dragon breeds, though. There's a paper dragon, a two-headed dragon with crystals...that's your picasso vs. turner vs. dali. The lore, concept and design of the dragons is what makes the sight interesting and appealing. The different artists you quoted use different styles. Painting is also different because there is way more freedom with painting. Sprites are very limited in resolution so there is only so much that can be done.

 

I'm ok with the opinion that we could have different styles on DC. Honestly, no matter how "consistent" the site is, you can already see differences between certain artists even in "consistent" sprites. It is less of a "make everything the same" but "make everything equally as decent". Different styles do not justify poor shading or colour use.

 

Some of you seem like you would say "well shading being "poor" is an opinion, not a fact". Well, no matter what you think of shading styles, there is an unbiased logic of what constitutes more effort, efficiency, and even skill in spritework. More detailed sprites are not always better, no. But there's a basic level of "polish" that sprites should hit.

Edited by Ashywolf

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I am very sorry if I sound disrespectful but these comparisons are making me laugh. I have one as well.

 

You claim that you don't want an anatomically-wrong sprite get an update. BUT if you would, say, break a bone, would you leave as it is? Of course not. If you're having a bad hair day, would you not attempt to fix your hair before going out?

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4 hours ago, Shuuichi said:

I am very sorry if I sound disrespectful but these comparisons are making me laugh. I have one as well.

 

You claim that you don't want an anatomically-wrong sprite get an update. BUT if you would, say, break a bone, would you leave as it is? Of course not. If you're having a bad hair day, would you not attempt to fix your hair before going out?

 

Apples and oranges. Even so, I'll bite: You can *choose* whether or not to set that bone, or fix your hair. No one is forcing you to comb your hair before you leave the house, no one is saying 'I don't like your hair, you have to replace it no matter how much you love how it currently looks'. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? Some people *like* frizzy hair, wavy hair, some people insist on artificially straightening their hair before going anywhere. It's their choice. Sprite updates are not a choice. Sprite updates are *forcing* new, possibly unliked versions of a beloved sprite on *everyone* regardless of how they feel about the current sprites. 

 

(But honestly, I don't see many people saying they don't want very slight anatomy fixes at all. What most of us are talking about are updates that substantially alter the feel of the sprite.... Which is almost every update that has ever happened before. Personally I'm *fine* with slight anatomy fixes, IF that's all it is.... But it never is.)

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Shading updates, anatomy fixes. That’s all people seem to be asking for, nothing more dramatic. If the updates are extreme—that’s the choice of the artist. 

Edited by Niyaka

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5 minutes ago, Niyaka said:

Shading updates, anatomy fixes. That’s all people seem to be asking for, nothing more dramatic. If the updates are extreme—that’s the choice of the artist. 

 

Pretty much this. I just want to see the older dragons get a face lift. However, if an artist decides they want to give their dragon dimorphism or something, that's different. That's not what I'm asking for, but it's happened before because the artist overrules us. But the two are different issues.
Basically I want to see more updates like the Vampires got, the Silvers got.. etc. The Gold update was needed, but I would have liked to see them keep more details of the original, like the scaled underbelly. Updates like the Golds where the dragon's design changes is why I can understand people being wary.

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2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

You can *choose* whether or not to set that bone, or fix your hair. No one is forcing you to comb your hair before you leave the house, no one is saying 'I don't like your hair, you have to replace it no matter how much you love how it currently looks'.

I think the better analogy here is "I like your hair as it is, you have to keep it like that and not change it no matter how much you prefer the new hairstyle".

 

It's ultimately the artist's work and, thus, their choice.

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6 hours ago, Keileon said:

I think the better analogy here is "I like your hair as it is, you have to keep it like that and not change it no matter how much you prefer the new hairstyle".

 

It's ultimately the artist's work and, thus, their choice.

 

Yes. If the ARTIST wants to change things - I think that's their right - even if I hate the result. But we don't /shouldn't get to say "Change that; I hate it." And please let's keep our history unless there is an ARTIST who objects to their past work being up here. And I would hate to think a load of artists will now get messages "Please change xyz; it needs to look MODERN" and so on.

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2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Yes. If the ARTIST wants to change things - I think that's their right - even if I hate the result. But we don't /shouldn't get to say "Change that; I hate it." And please let's keep our history unless there is an ARTIST who objects to their past work being up here. And I would hate to think a load of artists will now get messages "Please change xyz; it needs to look MODERN" and so on.

 

It's not even that we hate these things- but if you or I want to make a dragon, It has to meet a quality standard that is currently higher than what some of these sprites on the site actually meet, and I don't think that's very fair at all.

There is nothing wrong with shading and anatomy fixes. Revamps are good.

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History is still history. It doesn't all need revamping.

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Just now, Fuzzbucket said:

History is still history. It doesn't all need revamping.

 

History can be documented elsewhere. This isn't a museum as you liked to say. This is growing and changing website. Cities don't stay the same, they modernize. Websites that want to remain relevant modernize too. It's good to not forget the past, but there are places and ways to remember the old without getting in the way of the presentation of the website.
That's pretty much all there is to it, and the fact that we've already had some revamps points to the large possibly of the remaining getting the same treatment eventually.

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So, the conclusion of this thread is that in a dragon sprite collecting game, I should not get attached to the sprites I'm collecting because they might get updated in the future to fit new standards?

 

For me, the best sprite update that has happened so far are the Whiptails. If the recent updates really kept to just shading and minor anatomic fixes, I could live with that.

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The thing about 'new standards'.... It's always going to change. Always. Five years from now I *guarantee* that people are going to be saying the 2018 releases are dated and need updates. When/where does it stop? Where is that line? Because at some point 'updates for the sake of standards' is going to include every single breed on the site. And personally I don't think that's right. I don't think sprites should 'need' to be updated just because of current, rather arbitrary standards (that will most likely change within a few years anyways). Every single sprite on DC *was* 'up to standards' when it was first released. Otherwise it wouldn't have been released to begin with. Every single sprite on DC already went through polishing stages, critique stages, etc and were deemed acceptable for the game at the time. Why should that change just because newer breeds look a little different? 

 

Again I'm going to say, I personally have nothing wrong with slight anatomy/shading fixes. It's the updates that change the entire feel of the sprite that I'm so against, and so far in DC's history that's nearly every single update. That's why I'm so against updates in general, because history has proven that 'slight anatomy fixes' just don't happen. 

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6 hours ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

 

History can be documented elsewhere. This isn't a museum as you liked to say. This is growing and changing website. Cities don't stay the same, they modernize. Websites that want to remain relevant modernize too. It's good to not forget the past, but there are places and ways to remember the old without getting in the way of the presentation of the website.
That's pretty much all there is to it, and the fact that we've already had some revamps points to the large possibly of the remaining getting the same treatment eventually.

 

So owners of lineages that are ruined by sprite updates have to suck it up ? (Think nilias, for instance) Thanks bunches. :wacko:

 

Cities with nice old buildings keep them, to add character, by the way.

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18 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

So owners of lineages that are ruined by sprite updates have to suck it up ? (Think nilias, for instance) Thanks bunches. :wacko:

 

Cities with nice old buildings keep them, to add character, by the way.

 

Nah, they rip down buildings here. Just did it a few months ago.

And ultimately yes, we do have to just take it, though personally I've never thought any of the changes ruined lineages for me- but also I'm not talking about changes like the nillas. that's dimorphism the artist wanted to to, not a revamp. Revamps would preferably keep the same pose, but just fix anatomy and shading.. not be a new sprite altogether.

 

Edit: Just to really illustrate my point, here's something I did a while ago for a contest;

eajo8k.jpg

It is the same sprite, but with improved shading (Aggron's Emerald sprite shaded with the palette of the BW sprite). See how the right one has more depth?

 

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

The thing about 'new standards'.... It's always going to change. Always. Five years from now I *guarantee* that people are going to be saying the 2018 releases are dated and need updates. When/where does it stop? Where is that line? Because at some point 'updates for the sake of standards' is going to include every single breed on the site.

 

Actually, sprites are small. There's only so much detail you can put in. The bar can not keep being raised infinitely higher. The modern sprites are almost all at level close to the ceiling of what is capable with spritework.

Edited by Dragon_Arbock

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22 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

History is still history. It doesn't all need revamping.

Does that mean that Germany can get its borders from before WWI back, please? It's  historical, after all... (And, no, I'm not really campaigning for that.)

 

On 1/18/2019 at 2:29 AM, HeatherMarie said:

 

(But honestly, I don't see many people saying they don't want very slight anatomy fixes at all. What most of us are talking about are updates that substantially alter the feel of the sprite.... Which is almost every update that has ever happened before. Personally I'm *fine* with slight anatomy fixes, IF that's all it is.... But it never is.)

The bet is on. List all your updates that "substantially alter the feel", and I'll give you one counter-example for each and every one of them. And let's ignore the sprites from before "the fog", since these changes had to be made in order to keep DC alive.



Old Black adult => Black male The new sprite actually has visible claws, as well as a bit more tongue visible and a darker eye. Just in case you didn't see it.

Old Carina female => Carina female Less fire on the wings...

Old Carina male => Carina male Fire refined. ;) 

Old Electric adult => Electric female slight pose change, better wing anatomy.

Old Geode adult => Geode male Added the far wing.

Old Gilded Bloodscale female => Gilded Bloodscale female Shading update.

Old Gilded Bloodscale male => Gilded Bloodscale male Same.

Old Guardian of Nature adult => Guardian of Nature adult Another one.

Old Horse adult => Horse female Anatomy and shading tweaks.

Old Frilled adult => Frilled female Shading update.

Old Ochredrake adult => Ochredrake adult Again.

Old Neotropical adult=> Neotropical female And another one...

Original Paper adult=> Paper adult Honey, I shrunk the kids... ;) 

Old Pillow female => Pillow female More shading updates.

Old Pillow male => Pillow male Double the trouble with shading updates.

Old Purple female => Purple female Slight anatomy and coloring tweaks.

Old Red adult => Red adult Very visible change, yet the feel is still the same. Save for that stiff feel from the old sprite, I guess.

Old Seragamma Wyvern female => Seragamma Wyvern female Slight anatomy fix on the far wing, plus more fur for the neck.

Old Seragamma Wyvern male => Seragamma Wyvern male Claws and teeth got an update.

Old Sunrise adult => Sunrise female And another shading update.

Old Sunset female => Sunset female Just to counter the male, which did get a drastic update...

Old Vampire female => Vampire female Set the wing straight. ;) 

Old Vampire male => Vampire male And those hands, too.

Old Water adult => Water female

Old Water Walker adult => Water Walker adult That tail...

Old Whiptail adult => Whiptail adult Anatomy and shading got tweaked.

Cermorvus adult => Soulstone adult Pose got shifted a little, improved golden details, some shading changes.

Old Black Marrow female => Black Marrow female => Wing edit.

Old Holly adult => Holly adult Shading tweaks, plus dat neck/head/face.

Old Mistletoe adult => Mistletoe adult Slight anatomy (feet)/pose (wings) and shading tweaks. Probably a complete remake, but doesn't look like it.

How many of these updates didn't you even notice? 

 

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I did actually notice most of them (and wasn't too happy about the reds.) And I was one of those who loved the Holly Hangbutt ! The horses were a little OTT as well. I liked the whippies, I admit.

 

I did completely miss the blacks and the papers.

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If an anatomy or shading fix is needed on a sprite, then it should be done. Usually, a bigger update than you'd think is needed to fix issues with sprites, and so be it. I really think it's as simple as that so that we improve the quality of the site. Old buildings to showcase a city's history is an important touristy part of said city. The purpose of a museum is to showcase history through art. Incorrect anatomy and much needed shading updates to showcase DC's history isn't really any sort of touristy part or purpose that the site has, it's just fabricated reasons y'all have come up with to justify incorrect anatomy and much needed shading updates.

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@Fuzzbucket: The new holly sprites still suffer from severe "can't-fly-at-all" syndrome, aka hangbutt, although I have to admit that there's a slight increase in wing membrane. The most dire change is in how the neck connects to the head. While I have to disagree on the horses, I have to agree on the reds, though. They look quite different, especially in lineage view.

 

But even if we take out the Reds, that still leaves us with 29 (adult) sprite updates for 24 breeds that are anything but drastic and don't really change the feel of the breed.

Compare that to the bigger overhauls - male and female golds, male and female silvers, male sunsets, male and female splits, Val '09 and all 8 seasonals. (While I agree that the new Nilia female is far from my favorite sprite, I wouldn't put it in that list because it was a case of belatedly added dimorphism, not a "normal" sprite update.) And maybe reds and arias, too - although I feel that the female sprite doesn't feel much different, even if it's a very different sprite. This list is still much shorter than the other one.

Edited by olympe

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@olympe I believe we've already gone over this earlier in the thread: What you consider minor changes that don't alter the feel, that's your opinion, but others may have different opinions. I already talked about some you listed earlier, and why they definitely altered the feel to *me*: https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/183753-sprite-updates/?tab=comments#comment-9759785

 

I'm not going to go through your whole list because frankly it's getting old, going through every single old update and trying to explain why I feel the way I do. I've said it enough times, I don't like updates in general because *most* of them *do* substantially alter the feel of the sprite *to me*. And that's my opinion, and I am perfectly allow to have that opinion. Just a couple quick thoughts: Frills and Horses, they lost their 'soft' feel and became overall more muscle-y. Some people see that as a good thing, some don't. Waters had a substantial change in pose, I don't see how anyone can argue with that. Maybe it's better, maybe it's not, but it was definitely a noticeable change. I've already talked extensively about the Reds. A lot of the ones you listed, the main thing seems to be going from softer, more subtle shading to more obvious shading and muscle definition. And sure, maybe that's better anatomy-wise, but it *does* change how the sprite feels when I look at it. About the only sprite you just listed that I totally really agreed with the update was the Carinae, the fire looks much better toned down a bit.

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@HeatherMarie: You may have noticed that I used neither splits nor arias in this list, though. Which are the two breeds you claimed are not minor changes. So where's the issue?

 

Also, substantial change in pose:

Old Water adult => Water female Define substantial.

And are you seriously trying to tell me that the black sprite has undergone much of a change? It's a mere 26 pixels, out of a 92x82 pixels sprite. Only 4 of those were changed from the existing sprite, the others were added as details (claws). The change is so incredibly minor that it took me literally copying both sprites above each other and switching from one layer to the other to actually spot it. :wacko:

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