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Sprite Updates

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23 minutes ago, Kiki said:

I generally don't mind sprite updates like the Silvers and Reds. But on the other hand I really miss the old golds 😕

But nah man, the black dragons are perfectly fine as they are, they've always been nice and I really don't see any glaring problems with them like at all.... "they look weird" ????? I don't understand lol

I'm not saying they need a complete redesign or even a heavy remastering, just a bit more refinement for shading and some overall detailing. I'm sorry for not talking in depth on them!

They're not as bad as others I listed but I think they could use some better shading instead of this mild case of pillow lighting they have, the sprite lacks detail similarly to the nebula (but not to the extent the nebula lack).

 

P.S. I retract my crit of the cream coloring, edited the post to reflect that

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I don't mind small updates, like many of the ones that olympe listed, but I am strongly opposed to updates that significantly alter the "feel" of a dragon. The Val 09 update was a heart breaker for me. Comparing the two sprites, the new one doesn't look like it is about to fall over and has more realistic anatomy in general. However, I liked the old wings (even though they were kind of a mess) and pose much better. The new sprite fits the cave better but I would take the old one back in a heartbeat if I could. As I said, minor updates don't bother me, but it feels like a lot of people are suggesting updates that are closer to what happened to the Vals than to the Purples.

 

I understand what people mean when they say that some old sprites are outdated, but I just can't see it as a problem. Sure many older breeds have anatomy/shading that wouldn't be acceptable today, but people collected them and enjoy them the way they are. And yeah, I don't like every older breed, and maybe I would like some better if they had an update, but I also don't like every newer breed. If you don't like a breed, you don't have to collect it, whether it's old or new. There are fans of every breed, even the old, anatomically incorrect ones.

 

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See, that's what I mean. It's never going to stop with "just a little anatomical tweak." Many of the people who want to replace the older sprites DO want a "stylistic change," and they DO want to change everything's shading to all look the same, and they DO want to do this to all the older sprites (including hugely popular ones like blacks and nebulas), not "just the broken ones," because they think it is objectively better and do not see how anyone could disagree.

 

I've explained why I do disagree, but at this point I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter. I feel like the kid in the Lego movie whose dad is going to glue all the Legos in place because he thinks they're obviously better that way, even though the kid just wants to use his imagination with them.

 

When whites go I'm out of here. Nebulas might be too far for me too. I think I could survive blacks, but we'll have to see. We've lost too many of the dragon designs that I felt had real personality already, and the people who follow the crit threads have already said in the Dorsals one that the climate there suppresses people from making more really creative and different dragons to replace them, so I'm kind of pessimistic about where this is all heading.

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Yes. Please can we keep our history and apply the "standards"to new stuff. 

 

Begs pathetically. :)

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I'm going to be honest...like many others, I'm a slight hypocrite when it comes to sprite updates XD I'm one of the people who would like to see a few very old sprites updated so more people will appreciate them, but I would also be heartbroken if the Black Teas were updated. I'm sure they do have anatomy/shading/etc. flaws, but I still love them. That just shows that everyone has their own favorites and we'll never be able to agree on which sprites to update. No matter what, someone will be upset by the new art. It's unfortunate but true, especially in a game like Dragon Cave that pushes its spriters to constantly be improving their (already beautiful) work. The Seasonal update is a great example of that. I think it's best to just leave updates to TJ and the original artists (or, if they are inactive, any new artists that have stepped forward). I know that everyone wants to protect their favorite sprites, but I don't think the community should be involved in that process; drama and panic is inevitable. If we only see the end result...that's a different story.

 

So, my take: I agree with @hazeh about updates vs entirely new sprites. I would rather see slight updates made with respect to the details of the original art than a brand new sprite slapped on the site. 

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3 hours ago, tjekan said:

See, that's what I mean. It's never going to stop with "just a little anatomical tweak." Many of the people who want to replace the older sprites DO want a "stylistic change," and they DO want to change everything's shading to all look the same, and they DO want to do this to all the older sprites (including hugely popular ones like blacks and nebulas), not "just the broken ones," because they think it is objectively better and do not see how anyone could disagree.

 

I've explained why I do disagree, but at this point I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter. I feel like the kid in the Lego movie whose dad is going to glue all the Legos in place because he thinks they're obviously better that way, even though the kid just wants to use his imagination with them.

 

When whites go I'm out of here. Nebulas might be too far for me too. I think I could survive blacks, but we'll have to see. We've lost too many of the dragon designs that I felt had real personality already, and the people who follow the crit threads have already said in the Dorsals one that the climate there suppresses people from making more really creative and different dragons to replace them, so I'm kind of pessimistic about where this is all heading.

 

Exactly this. Yes. I'm so very very glad that some people do agree that all that would be needed is some slight anatomy fixes on certain breeds, but there *are* plenty of people who would rather completely change the sprites to make them look similar to newer releases. And those, unfortunately, seem to be the 'loudest' group, in terms of repeatedly making update threads for some breed or another and such. And those of us fighting to keep our beloved sprites 'just don't like change' or 'don't understand' why it'd be better that way. (Or worse yet, our opinions shouldn't matter so much when it comes to making the site 'better', which is an attitude I've seen multiple times in this section of the forums.) 

 

I'll continue to say my piece and try to explain why I feel the way I feel, but I'm sure more sprite updates are inevitable no matter what we say. I have a certain breed I probably could *not* deal with being changed and it would most likely completely put me off from the game at least for awhile, but at this point I don't even want to mention it for fear of people trying to explain why they 'should' be changed.

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I have a hypothetical question:

 

Say one day, one of the artists revamps one of their old release dragons - they realised how much their art has improved over time and their old sprite no longer reflects how they envisioned them to look, and they revamp it almost totally. Whether it has a different pose or not, all the anatomy and shading gets a complete update to look like newer releases, with the reason being that the old sprite no longer depicts what the artist wanted them to look like.

 

What would peoples’ opinions on that be? I’ve noticed a few people saying that if it’s the creator’s wishes then it’s more okay than just randomly reworking someone else’s work just to fit standards. (I guess that’s kinda like what happened with the Red because Silvanon worked on them both)

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Like I mentioned with regards to Nilias: I'd prefer the new sprites to be a new breed, or a new alt to the old breed, not replacing what I already have collected.

(The site could use more alts (edit: NOT breed-only!) anyway, in my eyes XD)

Edited by Ruby Eyes

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People have counterpointed to me not to change the white hatchies, that they love the pose they have. All I ask is that their thigh gets fix, that's it, nothing else. No drastic pose change, no style/shading changes.

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9 hours ago, tjekan said:

See, that's what I mean. It's never going to stop with "just a little anatomical tweak." Many of the people who want to replace the older sprites DO want a "stylistic change," and they DO want to change everything's shading to all look the same, and they DO want to do this to all the older sprites (including hugely popular ones like blacks and nebulas), not "just the broken ones," because they think it is objectively better and do not see how anyone could disagree.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAH. ALL YOUR SPRITES ARE BELONG TO US.

 

But in all seriousness, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean the mindset of your argument is totally alien to them. I'm not a lovecrafitan monster from space for not holding your views.

 

And while I do see how people can disagree, style and nostalgia over quality of realistic art and all that. It's a matter of taste! And lots of people have a taste for the NEW style, I personally joined for the newer art and like it better, I was overjoyed when my first sprite update came around, it meant that all those sprites I was disappointed by can be fixed and made better, sure you can release a new breed but repeat designs are not allowed so it would never be the same as letting an update happen. I understand liking something in spite of it's shortcomings, but I personally prefer the new art style and make posts in favor of it because of that.

Edited by blockEdragon

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1 hour ago, blockEdragon said:

It's a matter of taste! And lots of people have a taste for the NEW style, I personally joined for the newer art and like it better

 

Great! Luckily for you, about 80% of the art on the site is in the style you prefer, and almost all of the new art being produced is too.

 

So why are you "overjoyed" about the idea of taking away the remaining sprites that are in the style other people prefer?

 

No one called you a "monster" (?), but you're still failing to comprehend that other people don't merely tolerate a style you don't like "in spite of its shortcomings" or resist its being "fixed and made better" out of "nostalgia." Other people actually PREFER the more creative styles, just as much as you prefer the more realistic one.

 

And none of us in that camp are suggesting that we delete all your favorite dragons and replace them with something else. All I'm asking is to have BOTH available, so we can BOTH enjoy the site.

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Adding on to tjekan:

 

If you force updates to the older sprites, you will push a lot of the older users away honestly. @blockEdragon Yes, a lot of people have a taste for the newer styles but the old users have a TASTE for the old art work. It's like the Pokémon sprites, I still prefer Gen 2 artwork and that's MY personal taste. MY personal tatse is a MIXTURE of both the old and the new artwork. I LOVE both the original dragons, like the dorsal and the old dragons BEFORE they were updated but I like ONLY SOME of the newer ones. Hence, all the ash dragons on my scroll. In less than 2 months, I almost have 200 ash dragons on my scroll. That's more than any other dragon I have collected in the past. 

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1 hour ago, tjekan said:

 

Great! Luckily for you, about 80% of the art on the site is in the style you prefer, and almost all of the new art being produced is too.

 

So why are you "overjoyed" about the idea of taking away the remaining sprites that are in the style other people prefer?

 

No one called you a "monster" (?), but you're still failing to comprehend that other people don't merely tolerate a style you don't like "in spite of its shortcomings" or resist its being "fixed and made better" out of "nostalgia." Other people actually PREFER the more creative styles, just as much as you prefer the more realistic one.

 

And none of us in that camp are suggesting that we delete all your favorite dragons and replace them with something else. All I'm asking is to have BOTH available, so we can BOTH enjoy the site.

 

I'm overjoyed because I like the new sprites. And the reference to a lovecrafitan monster metaphor is a reference to Lovecraft's style of horror, a lovecrafitan creature can have it's favorite color be gravity, they're alien and incomprehensible.

 

And your position is not a bystander in this argument, you're asking to stop making new sprite updates, I like the sprite updates and don't want them to stop happening, so yes you are basically asking to get rid something I like, I like the new sprites, you like the old, those are mutually exclusive because TJ refuses to do what Reddit did and let the updates be optional due to technical issues that comes with giving people options, so the community is forced to pick and I vote for the updates.

Edited by blockEdragon

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35 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

And your position is not a bystander in this argument, you're asking to stop making new sprite updates, I like the sprite updates and don't want them to stop happening, so yes you are basically asking to get rid something I like, I like the new sprites, you like the old, those are mutually exclusive because TJ refuses to do what Reddit did and let the updates be optional due to technical issues that comes with giving people options, so the community is forced to pick and I vote for the updates.

If we got the updates just to FIX the anatomy issues, sure, by all means, fix them, just leave everything else alone about the dragon. But that's not going to happen. What's going to happen is the anatomy is going to get fixed while sleeking up the dragon at the same time. Us old timers don't want to see the old sprites being updated like that

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@blockEdragon

So you're asking to get rid of the old sprites.

 

The difference is, there are new sprites roughly every month for you to enjoy - they are becoming more and more. The old ones don't.

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1 hour ago, tjekan said:

 

Great! Luckily for you, about 80% of the art on the site is in the style you prefer, and almost all of the new art being produced is too.

 

So why are you "overjoyed" about the idea of taking away the remaining sprites that are in the style other people prefer?

 

No one called you a "monster" (?), but you're still failing to comprehend that other people don't merely tolerate a style you don't like "in spite of its shortcomings" or resist its being "fixed and made better" out of "nostalgia." Other people actually PREFER the more creative styles, just as much as you prefer the more realistic one.

 

And none of us in that camp are suggesting that we delete all your favorite dragons and replace them with something else. All I'm asking is to have BOTH available, so we can BOTH enjoy the site.

 

31 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

@blockEdragon

So you're asking to get rid of the old sprites.

 

The difference is, there are new sprites roughly every month for you to enjoy - they are becoming more and more. The old ones don't.

 

Exactly this!

 

This 'new' style that some people prefer, there are brand-new breeds every single month in that style. No one who prefers the older look is actively taking away the 'newer' style from the people who like that, because that newer style is what is being released *every single month*. Every single month the site is getting more and more of that newer style. The vast majority of sprites introduced in the past 3-4 years are in that 'newer style'. 

 

Those of us who prefer the older style of a few older breeds are *not* actively taking that new stuff away from others. Those who push updates on all/most older breeds, however, that's exactly what they are doing. Wanting to take away the stuff that we prefer. It's *great* if people like the newer releases better, prefer that style, that's *awesome* since that's the style the cave is now using. That's great. But trying to force every single older breed to conform to that new style *is* taking away things that other people enjoy, things that other people *prefer*. There needs to be a compromise somewhere, and I think it's a fine compromise that (almost) ALL THE NEWER RELEASES are in that new style, and a small handful of older dragons stay in that older style that some people prefer. 

 

And yes, *prefer*. I get how some people, especially artists and people who know more about spriting and such, would look at older sprites and only see flaws. But many of us very much *prefer* the older sprites and do *not* see them as a big mess of flaws. I think that's what some people aren't understanding. I don't look at a Dorsal or Waterhorse or whatever and go 'oh, well this and this is wrong but I like it anyways', I do not see something that has tons of flaws but I deal with it. No, I *prefer* that sprite, I *love* that sprite for exactly what it is and I do *not* believe that it would be better if it was updated to be the same as all the recent stuff.

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2 hours ago, blockEdragon said:

so yes you are basically asking to get rid something I like, I like the new sprites, you like the old

 

Incorrect. Asking to keep the remaining older sprites the way they are is not getting rid of anything you like. All the dragons you like would still be there and unaffected if my opinion were to be taken into account, and more dragons of the type you like would continue to be added to the cave every month.

 

The only thing you would lose would be the ability to also take away the ones I like.

 

This is supposed to be a sprite collection game, not a wargame.

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1 hour ago, Dalek Raptor said:

If we got the updates just to FIX the anatomy issues, sure, by all means, fix them, just leave everything else alone about the dragon. But that's not going to happen. What's going to happen is the anatomy is going to get fixed while sleeking up the dragon at the same time. Us old timers don't want to see the old sprites being updated like that

Speak for yourself. With almost 9 years on the site, I'm definitely and old-timer - and yet, I'd prefer to see sprites updated where appropriate. However, I'm mostly a fan of slight updates, not so much of the great overhauls. Updates where the general feel of the sprite stays the same.

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Why make such a thread if it won't have any effect? We had this discussion several times before, and the changes happened and will happen again. My opinion on this subjects stands, I don't like them. Let me illustrate it with an exaggerated example of an artist who thought a sprite update was needed:

 

mj.jpg

 

Edited by Rally Vincent

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5 minutes ago, Rally Vincent said:

Why make such a thread if it won't have any effect?

There's a difference between doing nothing and healing a broken wrist...

Also, sprite updates and heavy body modification (gone wrong) isn't nearly the same, either.

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3 minutes ago, olympe said:

There's a difference between doing nothing and healing a broken wrist...

Also, sprite updates and heavy body modification (gone wrong) isn't nearly the same, either.

 

Well, technically sprite updates are modifying a dragon's body, sometimes heavily modifying the anatomy and outward appearance, so I do see the similarities. 

 

As to why make the thread and continue this seemingly futile pursuit, I know sprite updates will continue to happen. I know it's fairly unrealistic to think that they might stop completely. But if us continuing to discuss things and explaining *why* so many users are attached to the older sprites, if that might possibly lead to sprite updates being done in a more careful manner or more thought being put into updating while keeping the general feel of the sprite, then I'd say continuing to discuss this would be a good thing.

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1 hour ago, Rally Vincent said:

Why make such a thread if it won't have any effect? We had this discussion several times before, and the changes happened and will happen again. My opinion on this subjects stands, I don't like them. Let me illustrate it with an exaggerated example of an artist who thought a sprite update was needed:

 

mj.jpg

 

 

The discussion is being brought up to collect information. It is not a suggestion about enforcing either opinion - we aren’t suggesting “no more updates ever” or “everything needs updates”, we’re discussing why we approve or disapprove, and what makes sprite updates acceptable or not. Perhaps the opinions will be taken into account and something will be done about them, such as not revamping dragons in different poses again after so much opposition. That’s why these discussion threads are here - to be heard out.

 

That example is a bit far-fetched. Sprite updates we’ve had, for the most part, involve texturing and anatomy-fixing, such as the Seasonals. Their colours weren’t changed, their bodies weren’t entirely reassembled, they weren’t given any extra details. They were given more textured shading and smoothed-out anatomy. Not everybody liked it, but it wasn’t like every feature that made the sprites the Seasonals was removed or changed.

 

We're talking about updating sprites. Not redesigning them.

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It isn't just texture and anatomy though. The seasonals were always a more cartoony style and people came after them to mould them more into the current cave style. If people come after Balloons, so help me I will fight it. When I commented in the dorsal thread someone said to me 'how would changing the balloons ruin your lineage'

 

Just look at what the Nilias did. I built that lineage based on how it looks, any change to that sprite will absolutely affect all that hard work. This website revolves around making lineages, its all there is to do once you've collected everything. 

 

Its revisionist history. It doesn't need to be done. If it was just shading and anatomy tweaks, I'm all for it. But it never is. There is this continual need to eradicate all older styles to fit this one, new style for the cave. We should celebrate a variety of art instead of trying to cram it all into one cookie cutter shape.

 

I liked the Holly update. That's about it. I love the new female gold sprite but the male golds wings are totally different to hers. Otherwise, every other update has been unnecessary. I was really disheartened to see the seasonal and vamp changes occur.

 

If you don't like a particular sprite just don't collect it. Nobody is forcing you to. Just leave it alone for those of us who do. As I said before, you wouldn't repaint the Mona Lisa just to give her eyebrows.

Edited by Starbit-Plushie

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5 minutes ago, Starbit-Plushie said:

If you don't like a particular sprite just don't collect it. Nobody is forcing you to.

 

-BSAs

-Hybrids

-what if my scroll goals are to collect 10 of every dragon. 

 

There are people who don't play this game for lineages. Lineages are NOT ALL THERE IS to the game. I hardly ever breed. Why should the collection experience be hindered just because some people optionally choose to use the lineage feature, KNOWING FULL WELL that sprite updates may happen.

 

Like I've pointed out - there are plenty of old sprites that don't need to change. Bright-Breasted Wyverns are from 2010. Storms, Stones, Greens... all original dragons. Whites, Daydreams (I will admit the hangbutt issue), etc, etc. They're all old. But they don't look silly and out of place in the cave. There are plenty of old sprites that don't need any fixing; it's unfair to say people just want to fix every old sprite out there. Never have I ONCE seen people ask to change the BBW sprite for looking out of place or jarring - and it's 8 years old!

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You don't NEED BSAs to play the game. They help, sure, but the cave existed before them. There are plenty of sprites I'm not fussed with- I collect a few so I have some and then focus on other things. You could trade for Hybrids or get them from the AP if the parent breeds bothered you so much.

 

Greens would be the only sprite I would agree does need an update, just to clean him up and give him a little better shading. But if it never happened, I'd love them all the same. There is however a distinct subset of dragons with a more cartoony artstyle that people are trying to replace and Seasonals are the first victim of that.

Edited by Starbit-Plushie

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