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UnicornMaiden

BSA to influence breed

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4 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

I don't think this would be possible unless we had to select 2 dragons for the bsa to take affect. That is, select BSA, select dragon 1, select dragon 2 (possibly excluding all dragons unbreedable to dragon 1 to avoid silly things like "encouraging" 2 males or a regular and a drake together).

Hmmmm... valid points. I ACTUALLY sort of like your take on how this might work.

 

Including the it only works if said dragon is already breedable with said dragon bit.

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23 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

Hmmmm... valid points. I ACTUALLY sort of like your take on how this might work.

 

Including the it only works if said dragon is already breedable with said dragon bit.

Personally, I think it's needlessly complicated. Just "enhance" one dragon's genes to be "dominant". If you have two "dominant" parents, you have a case of co-dominance resulting in hybrids (if applicable).

 

However, this still excluded everything random (alts, color morphs...)

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4 hours ago, olympe said:

Personally, I think it's needlessly complicated. Just "enhance" one dragon's genes to be "dominant". If you have two "dominant" parents, you have a case of co-dominance resulting in hybrids (if applicable).

 

However, this still excluded everything random (alts, color morphs...)

 I think this would be much more simple than having to select two different dragons at a time; I think it should follow the same lineup as Fertility.

I personally like the idea of co-dominance occurring and having a higher chance to produce hybrids as there is no current way to increase the chances of producing hybrids. Not only could this BSA work for producing more of common breeds for lineages, but it could also help with producing more hybrids as those can sometimes be quite stubborn as well. :dry:

 

If the co-dominance factor plays into this, then I'd definitely have a use for whatever dragon gets this BSA!... Regardless of it plays in actually, I have some uncommon pairings that are ungodly stubborn with producing the right offspring.

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As I stated before, I don't think this BSA idea is suitable for influencing color morphs or alts. Alts, for one thing, are generally rarity based, so it seems to me that trying to increase your odds of getting one goes against the breed's mechanics. Stripe x Stripe breeding I believe is pure chance, and I'm not sure but think that also applies to Gemshards and might to Nebulae. In that sense some sort of BSA to influence color may not be out of the question but I don't think this particular suggestion works for it. Stripe x anything else breeding is a different mechanic and what color you get is predetermined for the most part. Certainly for Coppers a BSA to influence color is out of the question due to the particular way their breeding is set up.

 

The idea of co-dominance does seem like it works for hybrid breeding. Enhance one, you're more likely to get that breed, enhance both when a hybrid is possible and you're more likely to get the hybrid. But enhance both when no hybrid is possible and think they should simply cancel each other out. You're trying to increase the chance of one breed over the other, not increase the likelihood of getting something at all.

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But aren't hybrids pretty much rarity-based, too? I'm not sure a mechanic for making them more likely is any more appropriate than it is for alts or color morphs.

 

My main reason for supporting this is the difficulty that often comes when trying to get one common from a common x common pairing. That isn't something that affects ratios, since both dragon breeds are usually blocker-level common.

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I agree that's the main reason for the request. However, hybrids have breed ratios just as all other breeds do, so a BSA to try to enhance your chance of getting one is no less appropriate than using it to try to decrease your chance of the common in a common x rare breeding.

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5 hours ago, Fiona said:

As I stated before, I don't think this BSA idea is suitable for influencing color morphs or alts. Alts, for one thing, are generally rarity based, so it seems to me that trying to increase your odds of getting one goes against the breed's mechanics. Stripe x Stripe breeding I believe is pure chance, and I'm not sure but think that also applies to Gemshards and might to Nebulae. In that sense some sort of BSA to influence color may not be out of the question but I don't think this particular suggestion works for it. Stripe x anything else breeding is a different mechanic and what color you get is predetermined for the most part. Certainly for Coppers a BSA to influence color is out of the question due to the particular way their breeding is set up.

 

The idea of co-dominance does seem like it works for hybrid breeding. Enhance one, you're more likely to get that breed, enhance both when a hybrid is possible and you're more likely to get the hybrid. But enhance both when no hybrid is possible and think they should simply cancel each other out. You're trying to increase the chance of one breed over the other, not increase the likelihood of getting something at all.

Well, alts are rarer than the common variety, but getting them still depends solely on chance - just like any breeding result, really. So I figured it might be worth discussing. Of course, using this breed influence wouldn't guarantee an alt even if that's the thing you buffer.

 

And, just to help out with the basis for discussion, here's a list of breeds where you get different varieties by sheer chance (RANDOM):

  • Black, Dark Green (Vine), Undine: Have a rarer alt that can only be bred. Right now, I'm not sure they should be affected, but I felt it's worth discussing.
  • Dorsal, Ridgewing: Have a rarer color morph (red dorsal, tan ridgewing).
  • Nebula, Gemshard, Baikala, Floret, Opal: Also have two or more color morphs. I don't know if their rarity is the same or not, though.
  • Xenowyrms have a slight chance (20%? 10%?) to breed a different kind of Xenowyrm.
  • Arias have a slight chance of breeding BSA Pinks. (How do we deal with that anyway? This won't work like hybrids, but it would work with the idea to suppress the unwanted results - in this case Aria and the other parent's breed. Same would work for Geodes, come to think of it.)
  • Now, stripes... Stripe x Stripe breeding results in random colors, and maybe we just need to keep it that way, no matter what (because there'd be just too many exceptions). Kind of as a "unique breeding mechanic"? It kinda sucks, but, well...
  • And now, there's also Luminas. While the phases of one moon (the golden one, wasn't it?) influence their ratios, it's always possible to get either breed while breeding. This might be an argument in favor of allowing the breed influence to work here.

Breed variants that shouldn't be affected by Breed Influence:

  • Coppers. 2nd gens born by non-copper mothers will be of a different color if their biome doesn't match their copper mate's color, but that's intended and should stay.
  • Spinels work in a similar way with the difference that the generation doesn't matter. 
  • Siyats. You already can determine their color by their hatching time. Same goes for Sunrise/Sunset eggs.
  • Day/Night Glory Drakes, Solstices, Seasonals, Firegems and Lunar Heralds - here, the color/variety is determined 100% by when the egg is laid.

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A note: nebula coloration is definitely based on ratios. When the newer neb "alts" were released they absolutely took over hatching odds until they got evened out, instead of being 50:50 from the start like if they'd been truly chance. So influencing for nebulas, if the bsa was to influence towards a specific result instead of simply a specific breed, wouldn't be much different for influencing one breed over a breed of equal rarity. Dunno how it works for other dragons since I don't think they had separate alts except for black stripes.

 

Also, if this bsa could influence for specific results coming from the dragon rather than general "this breed (and related breeds?) or bust", it would have to have a second page for all these variant dragons. Plus if we included all possibilities like xenos it would let you influence for a result that could be completely impossible with the mate you bred it.

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I like the idea of a BSA to influence the odds of getting certain colors/alts. However, I'm not sure if it really fits in with the breed-influencing BSA we've been discussing. Perhaps it would be better to have a separate BSA centered just around influencing color? It might be a good fit for the Striped Dragons.

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A suggestion like that was made ages ago and the Stripes' creator shot it down. She's long gone from the site, but it still feels a little disrespectful to apply such a BSA to them. Probably it would be better if a new dragon was suggested with a color influencing BSA, but you'd have to be very careful how such a BSA was intended to work because things like alt Blacks and Vines are purposefully very hard to get and some breeds have specific color mechanics like Coppers. The Stripes themselves probably wouldn't be able to have such a BSA applied to them because Stripe x not-Stripe have specific colors that you can get from them. Only Stripe x Stripe is random.

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38 minutes ago, Fiona said:

Stripe x not-Stripe have specific colors that you can get from them. Only Stripe x Stripe is random.

Some breeds allow multiple Striped colours though. Not that this would have anything to do with this thread's main suggestion ...

 

I vote for

- Increasing chance, not decreasing chance, for the sake of getting at least something tradable.

- Encourage. Just sounds ... I don't know, encouraging XD

- Affecting breed only, NOT alts or colours. Pretty much all of these are defined by other means already anyway, even if we may not like all of them.

- Apply to both mates to increase chance of hybrid, if one exists. If there is none, you just wasted 2 BSAs (or it might work like an alternate Fertility).

 

Naturally, hybrids (sadly) don't have a spot in the Market (yet?), but the same ratio formula can be applied to them to determine a faux price, behind the scenes. Just the users wouldn't see that number at all. The BSA formula, as outlined on page 1, could then work like this:

Skywing: 100 shards

Water: 100 shards

Bluna: hidden (for the sake of calculating this example, let's assume it would be 400 shards)

So the BSA could raise the chance to get a Bluna by (100+100)/400 = 1/2 => 50%

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6 hours ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Some breeds allow multiple Striped colours though. Not that this would have anything to do with this thread's main suggestion ...

 

I vote for

- Increasing chance, not decreasing chance, for the sake of getting at least something tradable.

- Encourage. Just sounds ... I don't know, encouraging XD

- Affecting breed only, NOT alts or colours. Pretty much all of these are defined by other means already anyway, even if we may not like all of them.

- Apply to both mates to increase chance of hybrid, if one exists. If there is none, you just wasted 2 BSAs (or it might work like an alternate Fertility).

 

Naturally, hybrids (sadly) don't have a spot in the Market (yet?), but the same ratio formula can be applied to them to determine a faux price, behind the scenes. Just the users wouldn't see that number at all. The BSA formula, as outlined on page 1, could then work like this:

Skywing: 100 shards

Water: 100 shards

Bluna: hidden (for the sake of calculating this example, let's assume it would be 400 shards)

So the BSA could raise the chance to get a Bluna by (100+100)/400 = 1/2 => 50%

Well, the problem with hybrids, but also some other results (geodes from any parent breed combination, spitfire from ultraviolet, pink from aria, xenowyrms/avatars/luminas breeding a different variety of their kind, sunset x risensong => setsong or sunrise x setsong => risensong) are easier to work with if you use a decreasing-the-chance mechanic. If coded the same way, this could even have the very same results for all other pairings.

 

Example: Increase chance for skywing from skywing x water. As a result, the chance for a skywing egg is rolled first, then again. Only afterwards do the other possible results (bluna, water) get rolled. So, in essence, you get a doubled chance for the desired skywing egg. However, TJ would have to add all possible exceptions for hybrids and whatnot for cases where you increase the chance for both parents, or you won't be able to influence in favor of hybrids.

 

Counterexample: Decrease the chance for water from skywing x water. As a result, the chance for both a skywing and bluna egg get rolled *twice* before the chance for a water egg. So, in essence, you get a doubled chance for skywing, and if that fails, a doubled chance for bluna. For cases where both parents get targeted by breed influence, all TJ would have to do is make sure that the chance for offspring of both parent breeds gets rolled after a double roll of any other possible result (bluna, in this case), while the parent breeds get only one roll each.

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1 minute ago, olympe said:

easier to work with

That's for TJ to decide, really. But still, I don't want to have MORE of NO EGG, period.

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38 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

That's for TJ to decide, really. But still, I don't want to have MORE of NO EGG, period.

The "no egg" chance doesn't get enhanced this way, you just have separate rolls for each egg chance, putting the preferred breed(s) first and rolling them not once, but twice (in case the first fails). 

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Since this BSA is intended to help determine a dragon's breed I don't think the proposed color/alt influencing fits very well. It is a good idea for a separate BSA, so I made a new thread where it can be discussed: 

 

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On 8/16/2019 at 4:48 AM, olympe said:

Nebula, Gemshard, Baikala, Floret, Opal: Also have two or more color morphs. I don't know if their rarity is the same or not, though.

Opal?

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6 hours ago, Rememberdrgns said:

Opal?

Sorry, the Two-Headed Lindwyrms were nicknamed "Opals" when they were just released and we didn't know their "real" name yet.

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I still really approve of this suggestion, and think Arias would be a perfect fit :3 I feel like there should be a fail rate, perhaps, to make it not completely overpowered, as I think breeding mechanics are a pretty pivotal part of the site to just be switched around willy-nilly, but I think there should definitely be a breed-influencing BSA :)

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On 8/15/2019 at 4:48 PM, olympe said:

{Snip}

  • And now, there's also Luminas. While the phases of one moon (the golden one, wasn't it?) influence their ratios, it's always possible to get either breed while breeding. This might be an argument in favor of allowing the breed influence to work here.

{Snip}

Luminae/Dark Luminae breeding is also time dependent, based on the Cirion (small blue moon) Lunar cycle:

  • They depend on how close the time is to a Cirion Full or New Moon.
  • The closer you are to a Cirion Full Moon, the more likely you will get a Lumina.
  • The closer you are to a Cirion New Moon, the more likely you will get a Dark Lumina.

I don't know how that will work this BSA though.

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@Shokomon Thanks for the clarification. I forgot which moon it was, I just remembered that it was one of them. However, even during the Cirion full moon, you can get Dark Luminas and light ones during Cirion's new moon phase. And the reuslts of Lumina breeding are even more random during the gibbous/crescent phases.

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Support, especially the Marketplace-based variation.  

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