BSA to influence breed

[Fiona]

Yes, the common x  common issue is exactly what I think you guys are focused on, and that's what I would be most concerned about too. However, we do have to think about how common x rare  breedings, particularly when the common is suppressed (or rare boosted) would work. Both ways of viewing it, whether that you are suppressing one breed, or enhancing the other breed's chances, are probably going to work about the same way, in my opinion. It all depends on exactly how TJ codes it, and I'm pretty sure we can count on him to choose well there.

[Aalbiel]

2 hours ago, Fiona said:

Yes, the common x  common issue is exactly what I think you guys are focused on, and that's what I would be most concerned about too. However, we do have to think about how common x rare  breedings, particularly when the common is suppressed (or rare boosted) would work. Both ways of viewing it, whether that you are suppressing one breed, or enhancing the other breed's chances, are probably going to work about the same way, in my opinion. It all depends on exactly how TJ codes it, and I'm pretty sure we can count on him to choose well there.

 

I agree, functionally it will not make a difference if you're suppressing one or increasing the other. However personally I'd prefer it to be framed as increasing/encouraging, because it's more intuitive to encourage the result you want rather than discourage the result you don't want. Even if there is actually no difference.

[Fuzzbucket]

Well thanks for that - now we have a possible name for it that hasn't come up before: Encourage ! Better than any so far, I think !

[Shokomon]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Well thanks for that - now we have a possible name for it that hasn't come up before: Encourage ! Better than any so far, I think !

I agree! Why didn't we think of that before?

[Fuzzbucket]

Because we were hung up on genetics !

[Fiona]

Encourage works.

[Fuzzbucket]

OK. Now that we all want it - @TJ09 - can we please have it ? Arias work for me - the OP put it very well: 

 

Quote

My suggestion was Aria Dragons, which seemed to get popular support. The reasoning is based on the fact that they have close associations with Purple and Pink Dragons, based on similar breed history. Purple and Pink Dragons have Fertility and Influence, and this BSA would be similar in theme to those two.

 

[VixenDra]

Wondering if it wouldn't work like making the surpressed breed sort of mimic the breed we want to become dominant and making the resulting breeding behave as if the dragons bred were both of the supposed-to-be-bdominant breed - simply speaking, if desired breed is Gold, the Gold's mate will pretend a Gold - they would breed as if it was Gold x Gold (PB). Golds (Trios, and Silvers) breed horribly even when breed true (a few years(3-4!) of frequent(!) PB breeding gave me just 13 of offspring so far), and PBed commons also produce 0 eggs from time to time.

So Gold x Mint with Gold chosen to dominate would make the Mint act like a Gold. Assumed you used the BSA like this every weekly breeding of that pair, you'd still get just few Golds out of them just like you'd only get few Golds from Gold x Gold (like I do https://dragcave.net/progeny/OPSSc vs https://dragcave.net/progeny/3r0r1 vs https://dragcave.net/progeny/hkuix - at least a few of the Dorsal offspring got killed, also, the Golds and Silvers were quite often Fertilised while the Dorsals were not.Also, occassionally, if I didn't have time to breed my entire scroll, I'd usually breed my Golds and Silvers but not the Dorsals - all pairs compared are of nearly the same age just in case). Golds Ratio wouldn't get affected just like it's not affected when you breed 2 Golds together. And in practise, you wouldn't also get Mints because the BSA affected Mint acts like a Gold instead.

The "pros" of PBing is that IF you produce an egg, it's always of the breed you wanted (because both parents are of that breed). You wil get many no egg results but WHEN you finally get an egg, it is always of the breed you wanted (not necessarily the alt/variant tho). And if the breed is rare, you will hardly get any egg. After all, PBing doesn't screw the ratios - if the breed is rare, the breeding results do reflect that.

 

Just an approach of yet another side. Mostly to (attempt to) illustrate that ratios would remain inaffected (at least if not done wrong) just like all remains inaffected when we PB as we hardly ever get the ultra rare anyway.

TJ will know best how to make it work though. I guess the thread did express what effect the userbase expects:) We just won't know how it should actually be achieved to work^^ but there seems to be at least 2-3 ways/approaches to consider. The desired effects would still be there.

[UnicornMaiden]

I just had a whole bunch of failed breedings for a common x common checker I'm trying to build. I got plenty of eggs, but not one was the right breed.

[Fuzzbucket]

And I got yet MORE pipios...

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/6mKdW

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/jb1kd

 

This line will never shift

[Shokomon]

20 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

And I got yet MORE pipios...

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/6mKdW

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/jb1kd

 

This line will never shift

The Pipio Gene is too strong. (Lol)

 

So, are we going with Suppress or Encourage for the BSA?

 

Because I don't know if the OP decided to change the BSA based on Fiona's suggestion or not.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Encourage won out, I think.

[UnicornMaiden]

Personally I would prefer encouragement over suppression. Partly because I'd rather get a wrong-breed egg that can be traded or gifted than no egg at all. Partly because I feel like it's more intuitive to influence positively for something you want than negatively for something you don't want.

[olympe]

How about we make the workings of this proposed BSA depend on the market prices? Might seem silly at first, but actual rarity seems to be represented in market prices, plus these things fluctuate, just like ratios do. When lots of people were able to buy golds for the first time, the price went up pretty quickly by 100, until the next week when people could, once again, buy them. We also saw some breeds' prices fluctuate quite drastically due to their intended migratory behavior (as confirmed by TJ). So, it's pretty safe to say that market prices reflect actual (current) rarities. (Of course, this doesn't work for alts, hybrids and the like, but I'm sure TJ can figure it out. After all, he's the guy who knows his ratios best.)

 

That being said, what if the BSA worked this way:

1. If you breed two dragons of the exact same market price, you have a 50% chance of getting an egg of the chosen breed if you get an egg at all. So, gold x gold with this BSA wouldn't be a guaranteed successful breeding. This would cover most of the common x common breedings. (Yes, I'd prefer 100%. But, well, 50% seems pretty decent if 100% is considered too much by TJ.)
2. If you breed two dragons of different market prices and want the less common dragon, for every 100 shards price difference, you get a slight chance for an egg of the wrong breed. Maybe 1% reduced chance for every 100 shards? In other words, if you breed a 100 shard breed x 200 shard breed, you have a 49% chance that a resulting egg will be of the desired breed. If you get an egg at all.  This would cover most common x rare breedings, and would not increase your chances for extreme rare x extreme common breeding results. In essence, a mint (100 shards) x gold (currently 4,500 shards) breeding would not benefit from much this, as it would only garner you a 6% chance of receiving the desired gold egg. (Yes, I'm aware that only TJ can discern the actual numbers this would work with, as only he knows for sure what your chances for successfully breeding the rarer breed are in the first place.)
3. If you breed two dragons of different market prices and want the more common dragon, you'll have a heightened chance for the desired more common breed. For every 100 shards price difference, it could be an extra 2% on top of the base value of 50%. So, if you breed a 100 shards breed to a 200 shards breed and want the more common breed, you'd have a 52% chance for success. (Would we even need this? Probably.)

 

Ideally, the actual percentage for success of the breed-influence would be stated before you hit confirm. 

What we might still want to discuss:

• Hybrids/Fallbacks (spitfire from ultraviolet)/Geodes. Should there be an option for influencing in their favor? How is this supposed to work out? According to in-game ratios?
• Alts/variants (black/vine/undine/nebula/gemshard alt, colored stripes, ridgewing/dorsal/floret/baikala color variants, xenowyrm/avatar/set- and risensong variants, light and dark lumina...): Should there be an option to choose? At which success rate?

Edited August 13, 2019 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

10 minutes ago, olympe said:

How about we make the workings of this proposed BSA depend on the market prices?

 

I think the success rate has already been defined as dependent on market prices, hasn;'t it ?

[UnicornMaiden]

On 9/28/2018 at 2:44 AM, UnicornMaiden said:

Not throwing off the breed ratios:

 

Concerns were raised that this BSA could be used to over-influence for rare breeds, which could throw off the ratios and cause issues. There were a couple suggestions to counteract this.

 

Some people favored excluding rare breeds from being affected by this. On the pro side it would mean that the numbers couldn’t be inflated. On the con side it could be seen as controversial and arbitrary to exclude some breeds.

 

A more popular suggestion was to weigh the success rate according to the desired breed’s rarity. To put it simply: The BSA would have a high success rate when influencing for common breeds and a low success rate when influencing for rare breeds. A very promising-looking system was proposed to make success ratios from market value, shown here:

 

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You could tie the success chances to the difference in Market prices at breeding time.

 

E.g. I want to get a Magi from an Ash? Both are at 100 shards, so the BSA could raise the chance to get a Magi by 100/100 = 1 => 100%.

I want to get a Mageia out of an Ash? Mageia is 400 shards, to the BSA could raise the chance at a Mageia by 100/400 = 0.25 = 25%.

Silver out of Ash? Silver is 3000 shards right now. That adds 3% to the chance at getting a Silver.

 

Like that, you wouldn't need to limit the BSA to certain arbitrarily chosen "common" breeds, as there is already a formula that dynamically calculates (and nowadays also displays) current rarity of dragons. You could still spend a BSA on your rares and hope for the best, for those measly 3%, but it shouldn't be gamebreaking.

 

  

 

How it would affect hybrid breeds:

 

Use of this BSA would decrease your chance of getting a hybrid from two non-hybrids. If you use it on a White and breed to a Daydream then the resulting egg would be more likely to be a White than either a Daydream or a Soulpeace.

 

When used on a hybrid it would work the same as a non-hybrid. If you use it on a Soulpeace and breed to anything else then the egg will be more likely to be a Soulpeace.

 

[UnicornMaiden]

We haven't had any discussion on having a way to affect alts and color variants. I wouldn't be opposed to that, but I'm not sure how it would fit in with this BSA.

[olympe]

@UnicornMaiden I was more concerned with influencing for hybrids from the parent breeds (if applicable), so should you be able to influence pro-Bluna if you breed Skywing x Water?

[JavaTigress]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

@UnicornMaiden I was more concerned with influencing for hybrids from the parent breeds (if applicable), so should you be able to influence pro-Bluna if you breed Skywing x Water?

I don't see why that COULDN'T be a possibility. It IS ,after all, a legitimate possibility with that pairing.

 

[olympe]

7 hours ago, JavaTigress said:

I don't see why that COULDN'T be a possibility. It IS ,after all, a legitimate possibility with that pairing.

 

The thing is that we usually use a BSA on the target dragon. So, if we breed water x skywing and use this on the skywing, the chances for a skywing egg are enhanced. However, we don't have a target for the third option (bluna). It might be coded to work for hybrids if both parents are targeted. However, this wouldn't work for color choice on PB stripes, or color choice on any other breed.

[JavaTigress]

4 hours ago, olympe said:

The thing is that we usually use a BSA on the target dragon. So, if we breed water x skywing and use this on the skywing, the chances for a skywing egg are enhanced. However, we don't have a target for the third option (bluna). It might be coded to work for hybrids if both parents are targeted. However, this wouldn't work for color choice on PB stripes, or color choice on any other breed.

I envisioned this as... targeting the PROBABILITY, rather than the dragon itself, I guess? Which would work something like... using the BSA on a dragon triggers a drop down when you breed of the different breeds that could result. I grant you, however, that this might be a bit more complicated to work out!

 

I also see your point about colors.... since often THOSE are influenced by other things than just random chance ( The breeds of the other parent , for instance!)

[Fuzzbucket]

It cannot mess with the copper mechanic, I think. Nebulas - I THINK TJ said something about how that works that a while ago when someone suggested a BSA to tell which variant they would be.....

[Fiona]

One of the reasons I suggested suppressing rather than enhancing as the actual mechanic is so that when there are more than two possible outcomes you are suppressing the outcomes you don't want, rather than selecting the outcome you do want. So if you use the bsa on both parents when a hybrid is desired your chance of getting one is enhanced. However, the exact expression of how it works doesn't entirely matter, as enhancing sounds nicer. And we can trust TJ to work out the coding and exact methods.

 

On the subject of breeds with color morphs, I was not envisioning this as having an effect. For Coppers in particular, there is an exact mechanic in place that this sort of thing should not change. Your chance of getting a Copper may be enhanced but which Copper you get is based on their specific breed coding and not affected.

[Shadowdrake]

5 hours ago, JavaTigress said:

I envisioned this as... targeting the PROBABILITY, rather than the dragon itself

I don't think this would be possible unless we had to select 2 dragons for the bsa to take affect. That is, select BSA, select dragon 1, select dragon 2 (possibly excluding all dragons unbreedable to dragon 1 to avoid silly things like "encouraging" 2 males or a regular and a drake together).

[olympe]

5 hours ago, Fiona said:

One of the reasons I suggested suppressing rather than enhancing as the actual mechanic is so that when there are more than two possible outcomes you are suppressing the outcomes you don't want, rather than selecting the outcome you do want. So if you use the bsa on both parents when a hybrid is desired your chance of getting one is enhanced. However, the exact expression of how it works doesn't entirely matter, as enhancing sounds nicer. And we can trust TJ to work out the coding and exact methods.

 

On the subject of breeds with color morphs, I was not envisioning this as having an effect. For Coppers in particular, there is an exact mechanic in place that this sort of thing should not change. Your chance of getting a Copper may be enhanced but which Copper you get is based on their specific breed coding and not affected.

Right now, the idea to suppress seems to be excellent for hybrids, although enhancing both having a higher chance of "mixed" features (=hybrids) would work the same way.

 

That being said, I never wanted to propose to go against special breed mechanics with this kind of influence. So, it wouldn't work for copper, firegem, solstice, lunar herald or spinel colors, nor would it work for most stripe breedings or day/night glory breeding. What I meant was that this could affect variants that you get through random chance - like dorsals, ridgewings, florets, baikalas, nebulas (which can randomly breed the other color) and so on. It could work on avatar x any breed of different alignment, sunset x risensong / sunrise x setsong or things like that. Even stripe x stripe (or any other stripe breeding where more than one random result is possible, like stripe x winter magi). Also, since there's quite a bit of a random element, it might work for xeno breeding different types of xenos, or even light/dark luminas - because although they clearly depend on moon phases, the random element in there is quite huge.