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UnicornMaiden

BSA to influence breed

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As for me - whichever works and helps the same rarity x same rarity crossbreeding problem, for this issue it shouldn't matter much whether it's an "increase chance of breed O" or "decrease chance of breed N", and since Fertility exists, the "decrease" is already possible to get balanced:) (Fertilised GoldxGold still results in very few Gold eggs a year, so...)

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That makes enormous sense. I totally support it. Call it "suppress" and you've got a deal !

 

But do you mean that you would always get no egg, if you didn't get the breed you wanted ? Not that I mind that, just want to be clear.

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I don't know that it would be always no egg or the egg you want, I guess that would have to be up to TJ and the way the coding works, but that was the general idea I had. Your chance of getting what you don't want is zero or greatly reduced. Your chance of getting nothing would increase to compensate.

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Fine. Lobbies for "SUPPRESS". :)

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Meh. I've got enough of "no egg" already ...

Remember, it's not always about getting a shiny from common, sometimes it's just about getting a frigging COMMON from another COMMON.

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And it shouldn't affect that too much. Just give a better chance of the common you want. (Evil pipios, I am looking at you...)

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42 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Meh. I've got enough of "no egg" already ...

Remember, it's not always about getting a shiny from common, sometimes it's just about getting a frigging COMMON from another COMMON.

I guess using Fertility in addition to *breed influence name here* would balance the results^^

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5 hours ago, Fiona said:

I hate to turn things on their heads... but I'm going to come in with a suggestion of altering which dragon the BSA is used on. There have been suggestions like this in the past and one of the drawbacks is always the problem of upsetting breed ratios. The suggestion is, rather than increasing the chance for the breed of choice, you suppress the chances of the other breed that you'd prefer not to get. For example, you'd like to get a gold egg from Gold x Spirit Ward, but you're tired of finding new homes for all the Spirit Ward eggs the pair has given you. You use the BSA on the Spirit Ward parent, which suppresses the chance of getting a Spirit Ward egg while not changing the chance to get a Gold egg. I don't know exactly how the coding works for determining if or which egg you get, of course, but it seems a more reasonable way of putting things to me. Your BSA otherwise would work pretty much as your discussion, except somewhat mirrored. Vixendra would use the BSA on her Garlands instead of her Snows, hoping not to get another Garland egg (which you can never have too many of, in my opinion [haha] but she wants what she wants) Since the chance of either of those should be approximately equal otherwise (even though Garlands currently appear to dominate) she should get her Snow on the first try. High success rate. However, in the example with Golds and Spirit Wards, your most likely result is going to be "no egg produced" because the success rate for breeding Gold eggs is low and you've suppressed the chance of getting a Spirit Ward egg. Does all that make sense to you guys?

 That sounds fine to me. And...

 

5 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

That makes enormous sense. I totally support it. Call it "suppress" and you've got a deal !

 

But do you mean that you would always get no egg, if you didn't get the breed you wanted ? Not that I mind that, just want to be clear.

Suppress sounds way better than predispose or sway to me.

 

3 hours ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Meh. I've got enough of "no egg" already ...

Remember, it's not always about getting a shiny from common, sometimes it's just about getting a frigging COMMON from another COMMON.

I feel like no egg is an option regardless if you increase the chances of a breed or reduce the chances of another. 


For example, you've got a really strong chance of getting Luminae eggs close to and during the Full Moon...but people at the same time have recorded just getting no egg at all, instead of a lumina or dark lumina egg. 
 

I feel like Egg vs No Egg (or rather, Breeding successful vs Breeding fail) might be a separate calculation entirely. 

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And why would using a BSA be an improvement over abandoning? Because the first seems to be the greater hassle to me. Unless you need to take care of your bred eggs for your personal play style, of course...

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Yes, please! I would so love to see a BSA like this added! After breeding commons together and continuously getting the wrong common week after week, I am so desperate for a BSA like this. XD

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16 minutes ago, olympe said:

And why would using a BSA be an improvement over abandoning? Because the first seems to be the greater hassle to me. Unless you need to take care of your bred eggs for your personal play style, of course...

 

Because instead of waiting week after week after week for your pair to spit out the breed that you need (especially in the case of unbalanced ratios such as with new breeds), you can actually do something about helping yourself by using this BSA. Maybe you will still get the wrong breed in which case, yes, you can abandon the egg, but it will not take you as long to get the breed you want.

 

I don't see how this is problematic? It is in no way a "replacement" of abandoning, I'm not sure why you're equating the two...

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In a strictly practical sense I don't think it makes much difference whether you increase one dragon's chance of passing on its breed or decrease the other's chance. If the success rate is calculated in the same way then your odds of getting the egg you want would come out the same.

 

My only concern with doing it that way is that it might be easier for players to make mistakes in using it. Fertility is used on the dragon whose chance of successful breeding is to be increased. Influence is used by the dragon whose gender is to be positively influenced for. Would it be confusing or misleading to have a BSA with an intentional negative outcome?

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I don't think, so. Any time you use a BSA you need to think about what you are doing.

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3 hours ago, olympe said:

And why would using a BSA be an improvement over abandoning? Because the first seems to be the greater hassle to me. Unless you need to take care of your bred eggs for your personal play style, of course...

To avoid instances like this?

https://dragcave.net/progeny/wmdwk

I'm sure you know 99% of breedings can only produce one egg at a time, so even if the other partner is also common, when paired with something under 2 years old can still take weeks to months to get the right breed if it keeps choosing for the newer common over the other common. If I'd been able to tell it to "make less script please" it'd have been much less time wasted.

 

Edit: basically it'd help people avoid the situations of "I can't get a skywing from a waterhorse, I can't get a waterhorse from aqualis, I can't get an aqualis from aeria gloris" and so on and so forth. Because most breedings will end up overly skewed one way or another, even if they are theoretically very close in rarity.

Edited by Shadowdrake

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Very much agree with this. (Growls at pipios some more...)

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3 hours ago, Shokomon said:

I feel like no egg is an option regardless if you increase the chances of a breed or reduce the chances of another. 

That is the frigging PROBLEM already. I don't want a HIGHER chance of NO EGG.

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But would you rather have an egg you don't actually want ?

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15 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

But would you rather have an egg you don't actually want ?

Unwanted eggs can be traded. Non-existing eggs can't.

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I'd like some iteration of this BSA, but please no increase in chances of no egg. We already have that and no interest to contend with.

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Ah, I think I misunderstood before. I thought the proposed change would just be flipping which dragon the BSA is used on. If it would increase the chances of not getting any egg then I don't think I would want it to work that way. If I get an egg I don't want I can abandon or trade it. I've gotten some good trades from wrong-breed eggs that I didn't want. Getting no egg would just leave me with nothing.

 

Besides, if this goes through then I would probably use it in conjunction with Fertility (I would use both Fertility and this BSA on a particular dragon at the same time to increase the likelihood of getting an egg that I want.) Increasing the chances of a failed breeding would negate that.

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Assuming you're using it on the more common breed to decrease the chance of the common egg, by default no-egg would have to increase to make up for the "successful breeding but no production due to ratios", even if only slightly. I'm not going to bother mathematically figuring it out because I rather doubt TJ will take the "directly corresponds to market values" implementation, but I think "increase chance of desired breed" would help rare x anything breedings if you don't mind the other type too, while "decrease chance of undesired breed" works best for desired x overwhelming common with a larger chance of no-egg depending on your desired breed.

 

Alternatively, a compromise BSA would be something like "predetermine", which would roll first for the desired breed regardless of what it is, then if fails fills in with the chance for the second breed. No actual manipulation of chances or ratios involved, just temporarily adjust the way the breeding system works so dragons will actually manage to breed like their rarity when desired. Close to useless when breeding the desired dragon to holidays or rares, but works well with the other 90% of the dragon population and would encourage breeding x common prize lines or rare lines.

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TJ has said in the past (and I have no idea if it's still true) that breeding is set up so that your chance of getting X breed is the same no matter what you breed it to. Practically speaking that means that if you can't increase the actual chances of a gold egg because ratios all you can do is decrease the chance of the other breed egg, which by default would increase the "no egg" result. "No interest" results are due to not quite compatible dragons, and nothing (as far as I know) to do with ratios. A "no interest" message will result in far fewer successful breedings but they can breed and will  produce some eggs. On common x common I don't know if there would be a practical increase in one breed if you suppress the chances of the other. I'd assume yes, because the desired breed may not be closed out due to ratios, it's just that the undesired breed is so far behind on ratios that it's all that that pair produces.

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Yesssss I would love a way to boost the possibility of getting the breed I want. There are certain projects that I have just given up on because I got tired of getting only one breed for weeks or even months. But, if that meant only getting the egg I want 33% of the time and "no egg" the rest, I don't know if I would say that it's worth it as an impatient person. At least I can try to trade fails for things I do want now. Also, this BSA would make more sense to me if it were increasing the likelihood of one breed rather than suppressing the other as all of our other breeding-related BSAs have positive effects, but maybe I'm the only one seeing it that way. I would probably get confused and use this on the dragon with the breed I prefer by accident. 

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As a PB breeder I noticed that all breeds seem to breed based on rarity, not release date... Newer breeds of a certain rarity don't feel like breeding more than the old ones to me... I get plenty of no egg results from breeding most recent releases despite them being very common in the biomes at xx:x5s at the time I'm thinking about (first few weeks since the given breeds' release).

 

And idk what's the problem with the Suppression, wouldn't Fertility fix it? I think the Surpression should pretty much get much closer to PB results then, and PBs breed well, unless it's Silver, Gold or Trio, or an unlucky pair.
 

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5 hours ago, Fiona said:

TJ has said in the past (and I have no idea if it's still true) that breeding is set up so that your chance of getting X breed is the same no matter what you breed it to. Practically speaking that means that if you can't increase the actual chances of a gold egg because ratios all you can do is decrease the chance of the other breed egg, which by default would increase the "no egg" result. "No interest" results are due to not quite compatible dragons, and nothing (as far as I know) to do with ratios. A "no interest" message will result in far fewer successful breedings but they can breed and will  produce some eggs. On common x common I don't know if there would be a practical increase in one breed if you suppress the chances of the other. I'd assume yes, because the desired breed may not be closed out due to ratios, it's just that the undesired breed is so far behind on ratios that it's all that that pair produces.

 

It's common x common that interests me. where one common - same kind of common-ness in the biomes - completely takes over. Carmines did that for a long time - I don't know if they still do as I was so frustrated I gave up on them. My current beef is with pipio pygmies.... they aren't that new any more, but still they proliferate over all the others. I don't think this woudl make any difference in terms of rares. Because - like - RARE ! But please can we find a way to override extreme prevalence like this one:

 

12 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

To avoid instances like this?

https://dragcave.net/progeny/wmdwk

I'm sure you know 99% of breedings can only produce one egg at a time, so even if the other partner is also common, when paired with something under 2 years old can still take weeks to months to get the right breed if it keeps choosing for the newer common over the other common. If I'd been able to tell it to "make less script please" it'd have been much less time wasted.

 

Edit: basically it'd help people avoid the situations of "I can't get a skywing from a waterhorse, I can't get a waterhorse from aqualis, I can't get an aqualis from aeria gloris" and so on and so forth. Because most breedings will end up overly skewed one way or another, even if they are theoretically very close in rarity.

 

 

 

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