What do you think about the Ban on the Sale of Furs in Los Angeles?

[olympe]

My stance on this: If an animal gets killed, it deserves to be eaten. (Unless it was killed because of sickness or in order to prevent the spread thereof.) However, many animals that are bred and killed for furs are not exactly staple foods.

 

And, while I understand that furs can be necessary in very cold climates, Los Angeles is anything but. It's subtropic, so why would anyone there want to wear furs in the first place?

On 9/21/2018 at 3:07 PM, Starscream said:

So when it comes to modern fur, that I may on occasion obtain, its usually rabbit. it has been part of winter hats, and winter boots, or even gloves. The other "fur" is sheepskin - again this is another animal regularly used as meat animal, and its a by-product.

 

So I am fine with banning fur of animals who are not regularly sold as meat. But cows, pigs, sheep, deer, rabbits and emu/ostrich should still be permitted. outside of rabbits, the rest is usually made into leather. Hopefully no one decides to ban leather.

 

I am not religious in the practical sense, but I do have empathy for creatures - but if we eat them, I don't see a problem with using every part of them as much as possible. I am thankful to the animals who died to let me live. I think of them as living on within me.

This sums up my feelings on the matter better than I could do it myself, so I'll let Starscream speak for me.  

And, unfortunately, a lot of what LadyLyzar said makes sense, too.

[Husky51]

WOW!  What a response so far!

 

I appreciate all of the opinions expressed in this thread, even though I don't agree with many of them, that is fine.  We are all allowed to have our own opinions on things...

 

As I said, I am not a religious, but I used the Bible to express what it had to say, even though it is an old book written by Man.  Maybe my raising and killing small animals and fowl for meat as a child has given me this outlook, I cannot say, but I had to say what I felt about the subject of the ban on sales of furs when I heard about it in the News...   I'm sure others have as well and yet think differently than I do, so I don't know...

 

Thank you all for your opinions and in some cases, the reasoning behind them.  

[olympe]

Well, not every opinion is formed by religion. I'm pretty much the opposite of religious in every sense, and yet I have an opinion shaped by what I consider morality. (<= Is that the right word in this context?)

And, if you really want to know - "If it gets killed, it deserves to be eaten." is actually a direct quote from a fantasy novel I read several years ago. The quote just stuck with me because of the philosophy behind it, which I really agree with. So much for "books written by man" - or woman, in this case.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Husky51 said:

WOW!  What a response so far!

 

I appreciate all of the opinions expressed in this thread, even though I don't agree with many of them, that is fine.  We are all allowed to have our own opinions on things...

 

As I said, I am not a religious, but I used the Bible to express what it had to say, even though it is an old book written by Man.  Maybe my raising and killing small animals and fowl for meat as a child has given me this outlook, I cannot say, but I had to say what I felt about the subject of the ban on sales of furs when I heard about it in the News...   I'm sure others have as well and yet think differently than I do, so I don't know...

 

Thank you all for your opinions and in some cases, the reasoning behind them.  

 

Would you have killed those small animals to line your slippers with their fur, and thrown away the rest ? As I said - it's one thing if you genuinely use the animal every which way you can but NOT to just kill for adornment.

 

And yes, I used to wring the necks of chickens as a kid. But I would NEVER have killed a mink to make a coat with.

[LadyLyzar]

5 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I can't agree with you there. Sadly people will buy stuff, no matter how awful the conditions it is produced in, if it's there. I also like to support store chains that ban clothing produced in sweat shops. 

 

The only way to put a stop to exploitative and plain nasty practices is to make them illegal. Isn't legislation against cruelty to animals OK ? One HELL of a lot of fur is produced in conditions that constitute such cruelty; I never understand why the owners of mink farms (and indeed most egg farms and others) aren't prosecuted under animal cruelty legislation. And so often the public simply doesn't know what goes into making the stuff they buy.

 

You just gave a splendid example of voting with your wallet.  If more people did this, other stores would look into their practices.  Economic boycott is a much more powerful force than the letter of the law.  For example, when the money is there, I will pay more for pasture raised eggs because battery farms are awful.  Unfortunately people cannot often afford the "fancier" stuff because it costs more to produce animal products in this way.

 

However, making things illegal is often not the answer to curb behavior.  How's that War on Drugs going?

[Fuzzbucket]

The war on drugs is a whole different thing. It is the reluctance of governments to legalise and control them that keeps it going. In Portugal, where they did just that, drug use plummeted, AND the gangs have largely gone - there's no reason for them to be there any more.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

 

It's the gangs cashing in on the illegality who fuel it all.

 

And sure I can vote with my wallet. But most people simply don't know how bad things are. My daughter, who's an evil little 50 y/o, told a woman about to buy a shampoo made by Unilever about their animal testing programme. The woman was appalled and rushed too to Superdrug (as directed by my daughter) where their own products are completely cruelty free (AND incidentally cheaper). But the woman had had no idea. And when the noisiest people publicising such abuse tend to be PETA, who are known to be unreliable and thoroughly nasty,  people don't believe it all.

[LadyLyzar]

That's exactly my point.  Legislating behavior and products doesn't work.  Instead it created a thriving black market and made them tantalizing.

 

The thing to do would be to ban the more horrific practices involved in the production of furs, not the sale of them.

[Fuzzbucket]

Most of the awful things done on mink farms in particular (the ones I have actual visual knowledge of) are technically illegal if practised on your pet mink at home. But for some reason being in a mink farm makes it excusable.

[Husky51]

On 9/25/2018 at 2:08 PM, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Would you have killed those small animals to line your slippers with their fur, and thrown away the rest ? As I said - it's one thing if you genuinely use the animal every which way you can but NOT to just kill for adornment.

 

And yes, I used to wring the necks of chickens as a kid. But I would NEVER have killed a mink to make a coat with.

I can't say as I would have or not as the need or desire never arose.  Likely not, but I don't see where that gives me the right to prevent others from doing so if they wanted to...  of course, I usually end up voting for the opponents of the guys that end up as Presidents so that may be an indication of my judgment, lol...

[Starscream]

On 9/25/2018 at 4:56 PM, olympe said:

And, if you really want to know - "If it gets killed, it deserves to be eaten." is actually a direct quote from a fantasy novel I read several years ago. The quote just stuck with me because of the philosophy behind it, which I really agree with. So much for "books written by man" - or woman, in this case.

I also hold this in regards to most insects -  some I have to control in my home. But I do not kill things just because I don't like them. Spiders adorn my walls, and the insect I call a  "Horror" I usually ask someone to remove it because of my phobia. My fear will not result in its death, because I am not about to eat it.

[olympe]

Well, one of my dogs like to take care of the eating insects parts, so I'm (mostly) covered - but when it comes to mosquitos, I don't give a damn. Not only are they annoying and their bites itch, my daughter is also slightly allergic to them, so every bite turns into an ugly bump that itches for a long time. Sorry not sorry.

7 hours ago, Husky51 said:

of course, I usually end up voting for the opponents of the guys that end up as Presidents so that may be an indication of my judgment, lol...

In case of the current US president (if that's where you're from), that's actually proof of good judgement. 

[Ruby Eyes]

In my home, the spiders (and the cats) are taking care of catching and eating insects - mostly flies. The bigger insects (bees and bumblebees) are kept outside with a net in front of to-be-opened windows anyway. Not that anyone would actually take a fly's hide and make a coat out of it (and a few million more).

 

The best thing that a law like this can actually accomplish is that people talk about it, and direct people's attention to the entire topic. If they care, they will talk about it, think about it, and decide whether they want to just vote with their wallet (by going or NOT going into the next city to buy the item in question) or even take action themselves (by communicating, campaigning, etc).

[Fuzzbucket]

38 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

The best thing that a law like this can actually accomplish is that people talk about it, and direct people's attention to the entire topic. If they care, they will talk about it, think about it, and decide whether they want to just vote with their wallet (by going or NOT going into the next city to buy the item in question) or even take action themselves (by communicating, campaigning, etc).

 

YES. This is effectively what my daughter did in Boots that time

[Starscream]

8 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, one of my dogs like to take care of the eating insects parts, so I'm (mostly) covered - but when it comes to mosquitos, I don't give a damn. Not only are they annoying and their bites itch, my daughter is also slightly allergic to them, so every bite turns into an ugly bump that itches for a long time. Sorry not sorry.

In case of the current US president (if that's where you're from), that's actually proof of good judgement. 

mosquitoes are an exception (because knee jerk reaction) and I am also allergic. 4 inch welts.

 

I often use sheep skins for my soap making - I keep the soap warm with them while it goes to gel stage. And I have a rabbit fluff aviator hat for very cold winter days -  with that said, California, one really does not need to wear fur down there.

 

All this talk, I am wondering what mink tastes like.

[Nat]

Good point, Starscream. Now I'm also wondering what mink tastes like.

 

I'm sure that hide/fur from any animal people regularly eat should stay legal--once a sheep is killed for its meat, it won't care if you also use its fur!

 

I can sort-of see the logic of banning fur from animals raised only for the fur, although I agree with everyone who thinks a better idea would be to make the fur-raising industry follow the  animal cruelty laws, rather than flat-out banning the product.

[Husky51]

Thank you...  I was raging at the TV screen this AM during the so-called interview (or whatever they are calling it)...

 

[Husky51]

20 hours ago, Starscream said:

All this talk, I am wondering what mink tastes like.

Now you got me curious...  and about dogs and cats and rats and guinea pigs...  Never could find any when I was in the orient...

 

Guinea pigs were a part of the Incan diet and Dogs were eaten by some Native Americans if the hunting was poor...

[Ruby Eyes]

The orient might be the wrong continent for finding guinea pig dishes. No clue about dog dishes, but supposedly these can be found further east. There may or may not also be a place where they eat minks - probably where other food sources are scarce?

[JavaTigress]

On 9/27/2018 at 9:14 AM, Nat said:

I can sort-of see the logic of banning fur from animals raised only for the fur, although I agree with everyone who thinks a better idea would be to make the fur-raising industry follow the  animal cruelty laws, rather than flat-out banning the product.

This... is an interesting point!

I mean.... IF there are laws governing the treatment of animals raised on farms( For eggs, milk OR meat!) WHY would those same laws NOT apply to a farm that raised animals for their fur?

 

Doesn't make sense to me, QUITE aside from the argument over the ethics of using fur.

 

AND I agree with what @RubyEyes said about it getting people to talking and thinking about it. I want to think the discussion CAN be a healthy one.

Edited September 28, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Fuzzbucket]

About eating mink:

 

Quote

Mink carcasses are rarely eaten by humans as the scent gland gives the meat a distinctive flavor which most people don’t enjoy.

 

Source: https://furcommission.com/faq/

 

Apparently there also toxins that build up - not least because minks who die on the farms, as well as those killed for fur, are ground up and fed to the other minks. Remember BSE in the UK ? That kind of feeding practice was what started it.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Meat and animal based proteins are really hard to duplicate, and vegetarians and vegans, from what I understand, have to jump through a lot of hoops to keep healthy. There's just not a great alternative for it yet.

 

In contrast, fur has extremely comparable substitutes that don't involve raising and slaughtering animals in huge numbers just to look stylish.

 

Eating is a basic human need. Wearing fur is not.

[babybluefire]

On 9/27/2018 at 10:09 AM, Starscream said:

 

All this talk, I am wondering what mink tastes like.

Rage and musk I would assume. In the wild they are ornery little creatures. 

 

 

That being said I am ok with legal and responsible hunting and trapping. As anyone who has hunted or trapped knows you only get the dumbest, sickest and stupidest animals in a trap. Leaving the smartest and healthiest ones to procreate. Full time trappers have multiple traps lines that can he hundreds of miles long so no one area is over harvested. As far as using the whole animal some people like the taste of predator meat and some do not. Those who do not still never waste it. The whole animal is harvested and any extra goes into food for family/farm/hunting dogs. 

 

 

Edit to add,

 

We constantly have animals after our livestock. Thru the years we have found that it is mostly the sick or weak animals that regularly raid farms and chicken coops. So there have been instances where I have hunted or trapped and the predator was sick and not healthy enough for food or fur consumption. In that case the animal was responsibly burned in the bonfire to prevent the spread of whatever it had to others of its kind. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by babybluefire

[Fuzzbucket]

51 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Meat and animal based proteins are really hard to duplicate, and vegetarians and vegans, from what I understand, have to jump through a lot of hoops to keep healthy. There's just not a great alternative for it yet.

 

 

Actually that isn't true. The ONLY issue is vegans and B12 - and because this is well known, a lot of the substitutes available (like oat milk and soya drink) have it added. Everyone in the family is vegetarian except me, and two of us are vegan. It's no trouble at all. (well, except that unless I want to cook differently for everyone, I end up eating veggie most of the time too.)

There is a load of silly nonsense about this, mostly put out by people who really just want to justify the fact that they don't WANT to go veggie.

 

Just saying.

 

There is also a lot of evidence that a veggie diet is healthier; it certainly cuts down on obesity and several cancers. And I say that not as a veggie fanatic - there is no way I am giving up my bacon... I say that as someone who used to work in Public Health.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

4 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Actually that isn't true. The ONLY issue is vegans and B12 - and because this is well known, a lot of the substitutes available (like oat milk and soya drink) have it added. Everyone in the family is vegetarian except me, and two of us are vegan. It's no trouble at all. (well, except that unless I want to cook differently for everyone, I end up eating veggie most of the time too.)

There is a load of silly nonsense about this, mostly put out by people who really just want to justify the fact that they don't WANT to go veggie.

 

Just saying.

 

There is also a lot of evidence that a veggie diet is healthier; it certainly cuts down on obesity and several cancers. And I say that not as a veggie fanatic - there is no way I am giving up my bacon... I say that as someone who used to work in Public Health.

 

Interesting. Of all the things I'd imagine are missing from a vegetarian diet, I would've pegged iron, calcium and protein as higher on the list above B vitamins! But I'm an unhealthy pig so I don't know much about vitamins, haha.

 

I'll be honest, though... I'm a lifelong animal lover, so I've wrestled with the vegetarian-or-not question for a long time. I've volunteered at multiple wildlife rehabilitators and vet clinics, am very cheerfully employed at the zoo (although alas, off season cometh!) and will relocate spiders and stuff outside. So I wonder often about what makes an animal worth saving versus eating. But then I realize a fully vegetarian world would not support dogs and cats as pets, nor zoos and other conservation facilities keeping highly endangered carnivores. For many things in nature, SOMETHING must die for something else to live. Heck, even plants are alive, although obviously on a very different level from animals. I'm a huge mushy sentimental sop and one day I pulled an onion out of the bag that had sat there too long and had sprouted, and had a rather taken aback moment when I realized this, too, was a living thing that I was about to destroy. 

 

So with all that said, as long as there are ANIMAL WELFARE standards in place (which the world is currently sorely lacking), I think the show can and must go on. To be honest, I wish I was more comfortable with other forms of animal killing (such as culling invasive fish and overcrowded geese populations), because I KNOW they do a lot of harm, but emotionally it's hard to let go. Again, if vegetarianism was fully embraced, these things would still have to happen, unless we want to trust critically endangered amur tigers to survive without human aid or the Great Lakes to survive the onslaught of invasive carp (which I don't think will happen).

 

So there's my case for carnivores. I don't like it, but I'm trying to accept it. Now FUR, in contrast, still seems like it has sooo many alternatives that are really honestly a 1:1 match. I have enjoyed some very fine fluffy blankets and coats over the years, all faux. More than a match for beaver fur, which in my admittedly limited experience is one of the softest furs the animal kingdom has to offer. So with these alternates in place, why keep killing animals for their coats? The looks, the feel can all be replicated pretty readily without making animals suffer. As I stated above, I think some animal death is always going to have to happen--I just don't think fur is as justified as some other things. My cat won't survive if I don't kill the chicken, so I might as well share the chicken. But both me and the cat will be fine with a fake fur blanket over a real one.

[Rainbeetle]

3 hours ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Now FUR, in contrast, still seems like it has sooo many alternatives that are really honestly a 1:1 match. I have enjoyed some very fine fluffy blankets and coats over the years, all faux. More than a match for beaver fur, which in my admittedly limited experience is one of the softest furs the animal kingdom has to offer. So with these alternates in place, why keep killing animals for their coats?

^ Totally agree.

 

I am absolutely fine with using the fur or hide of an animal that was killed for food. What I'm not entirely cool with is the raising and killing of animals specifically and only to use their furs. However - important bit here - real animal furs can be kind of necessary for people living in colder climates, and those out of the way of where they can get synthetic fur. In these areas I support humane cultivation of real furs, or hunting for furs. It's not pretty, but some people in these areas live completely off the land, and this is often in cold/mountainous areas where they really need fur. Sometimes synthetic isn't the most practical or realistic option for them.

 

But... LA is not such a place. The climate is too warm to need furs, and I can tell you with likely certainty people are not out hunting or farming for their own pelts. The furs come from fur farms, usually mink. It's sometimes a really uncomfortable subject, but at the least I'd encourage everyone to read some articles on how such farms are run. Try to get a good mix of positive and negative information from some sites, and then think about what you're opinion is. Personally, I don't like the way I've heard of many of these farms being run, and I can't imagine ever stepping foot in a place like that... so why would I want to buy a fur from them, when I live in an area that is both plenty warm and has a plethora of synthetic options available? Animals are dying by the thousands every day; how many of them do you think are for food, and how many pelts is that possibly going to waste? Do we actually need to farm animals for fur at the level we do? I think that's the most important question to ask ourselves.

 

On the topic of how making it illegal will solve anything; short answer: it won't. Not completely. But every change has to start somewhere. And while the people who really really want furs will still find ways to get them, there will be some - possibly many - people, who will reconsider their standing on furs. It will get people talking on the subject, as it has here. And some people really value the law, and will take the change to heart.

Edited September 29, 2018 by LightningBug