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absofacto

Dorsal redesign?

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I don't like Dorsals all that much, so I personally would be unlikely to be very bothered by an update. However, I really like some of the older sprites, and I completely understand why people wouldn't want a change. I love the Guardian sprite and also appreciate the freakiness of the Albinos, and I'd be very sad to see either updated. Some of the updates we've had have been fairly minor (like Whiptails, f. Purple, and arguably the Hollies), but several other updates have changed the poses/colors of sprites in more major ways (GOLDS especially, but even things like Silvers). I know that technically the new updates are "better", but they come at the cost of old sprites that I am already attached to and have built lineages with.

 

It's absolutely possible that the criteria used in Dragon Requests is too strict/frustrating for artists, but as a collector and lineage breeder I don't see why that should have any impact on the sprites that I have already collected. I have 84 Guardians (and there are people who have MANY more than me) because I like their sprite, and I straight up do not care if it wouldn't meet today's release standards. Dorsals aren't really my cup of tea, and I'd honestly probably prefer an updated version, but I wouldn't want to ruin what could be someone else's favorite. If the original artist wants to update their art, that's one thing, but I am not in favor of updates just for the sake of consistency or whatever.

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I actually don't mind most of the old sprites, to be honest. About the only three I'd love to see updated are Albinoes (broken neck), Greens (weird wings), and Guardians (something looks off with tail shield attachment?), but with them I actually wouldn't mind an update that only edits the problem areas and lets everything else alone. And yeah, as a DR conceptor and frequenter, I'll agree with it getting majorly nitpicky. (And for a more modern unpopular opinion: the Pyrovars look just fine to me, just not my aesthetic.)

Edited by DuskOfTheStars

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2 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

Slightly off-topic - apologies - but I have to ask: why do you think this? No offence intended - it’s just a perspective I have honestly never heard before.

 

Pretty much the only opinions I’ve ever heard about the old Red is that it was conversely one of the worst on the site, with reasons being the stuff previously mentioned in this topic (posing and anatomy, shading, etc). I’m just very interested in hearing from another perspective :)

 

I liked the old red and the old gold because they looked heraldic. They reminded me of depictions of dragons on medieval shields and flags.

 

That's precisely why many other people hated them--they had a less 3D look.

 

But I, and a number of other users, liked them that way. They LOOKED like something a dragonkeeper would draw on an old-fashioned scroll like was depicted on the website.

 

Don't get me wrong, some of the beautifully done 3D dragons are also among my favorites. But it's like... just because I thought the 3D CGI models in "Frozen" looked good, does that mean I want to go back and replace "Beauty and the Beast" with pictures from the new animation engine? NO. No, it does not.

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1 hour ago, purplehaze said:

I agree. The new seasonals may be more anatomically correct, but in the process they lost their character.

 

I really wish we could just leave the old sprites alone. If you don't like them, fine -- don't collect them. But those of us who have loved those old sprites for years and built lineages around them based on the way they were then, are quite often put off when the new sprite comes along. It may be a perfectly nice sprite, but it is not the one we were working with. Lineage building is artistry, too, in its way, and when the elements of that art change it often destroys what we worked so hard to create!

 

Yes, this, yes. 

 

I don't work much with lineages, so that specifically doesn't apply to me... But *many* of us have been here for a long, long time and one of the *reasons* for that is certain old sprites that we love. Whether we show that love by making long time-consuming lineages or collecting hundreds (or even thousands) of that specific sprite. We've played with these old dragons for so long because we love the way they look, the personality and feel of the sprite. When that changes in a drastic way, it really does feel like years of hard work has suddenly just been destroyed. Because that new shiny sprite is not the one we've been working with for years, it's not the one we've loved for years. There is good that can come from updating something old and outdated, sure, but sometimes that 'good' is very very subjective and leaves many people with bad feelings instead. 

 

And the fact that DR is currently really nitpicky and frustrating to a lot of people? Why should that have any influence at all on what already-in-cave sprites look like? Whether the DR situation is fair or not, or too nitpicky or not, or whatever, that's all about *new* concepts. That really shouldn't have influence on what happens to already-accepted, already-in-cave sprites that people have loved and collected for years. 

 

2 minutes ago, tjekan said:

 

I liked the old red and the old gold because they looked heraldic. They reminded me of depictions of dragons on medieval shields and flags.

 

That's precisely why many other people hated them--they had a less 3D look.

 

But I, and a number of other users, liked them that way. They LOOKED like something a dragonkeeper would draw on an old-fashioned scroll like was depicted on the website.

 

Don't get me wrong, some of the beautifully done 3D dragons are also among my favorites. But it's like... just because I thought the 3D CGI models in "Frozen" looked good, does that mean I want to go back and replace "Beauty and the Beast" with pictures from the new animation engine? NO. No, it does not.

 

YESSSS! Perfect way to say it, yes yes. That's very much what I loved about the old Reds (and the old Golds). 

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1 hour ago, tjekan said:

I liked the old red and the old gold because they looked heraldic. They reminded me of depictions of dragons on medieval shields and flags.

Lulu_Witch said the best way to describe the old reds was that they looked Welsh

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I am 73 years old and don't look that great. But I'm me and no-one gets to update me. The End.

because youre a human person and these are fictional cartoon dragons????????? were discussing a sprite not building a pipeline damn

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honestly like i said. i would be happy with TJ instructing the in-cave artists to give the DR a little more leeway.

 

like, I don't dislike the old sprites. but if everything now has to go through the wringer it's not fair they get a free pass. 

 

i still really believe DR is very stifling to creativity - I really wish more leniency was given for artistic interpretation, so we could have more, different dragons. Pipio's would be so much cooler with their alts, (name redacted wax dragon) would look so much cooler dripping wax, (name redacted greek myth insp dragon) had the coolest sketches I have EVER seen for a dragon request but NOPE, i could go on.

 

Either everything needs to be consistent or everything needs to be given a little more leeway. Otherwise, it looks weird. I would never use mints or balloons in a lineage. Or, for that matter, waverunners - though I would LOVE to use storm riders, i just can't do it. I would prefer if DR had more leeway than if all the old sprites are updated - but if TJ doesn't want to do that, I would prefer everything be updated to look uniform. 

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1 minute ago, Alrexwolf said:

honestly like i said. i would be happy with TJ instructing the in-cave artists to give the DR a little more leeway.

 

like, I don't dislike the old sprites. but if everything now has to go through the wringer it's not fair they get a free pass. 

 

i still really believe DR is very stifling to creativity - I really wish more leniency was given for artistic interpretation, so we could have more, different dragons. Pipio's would be so much cooler with their alts, (name redacted wax dragon) would look so much cooler dripping wax, (name redacted greek myth insp dragon) had the coolest sketches I have EVER seen for a dragon request but NOPE, i could go on.

 

Either everything needs to be consistent or everything needs to be given a little more leeway. Otherwise, it looks weird. I would never use mints or balloons in a lineage. Or, for that matter, waverunners - though I would LOVE to use storm riders, i just can't do it. I would prefer if DR had more leeway than if all the old sprites are updated - but if TJ doesn't want to do that, I would prefer everything be updated to look uniform. 

I know the dragons you re talking about, and if the greek one is the one I'm thinking of.... Yeah it's tragic what happened to them, I was looking forward to those so much, not anymore. 😕 Fully agree with you on DR. It's honestly insane the ridiculously high standards in there. Also just feels like if you aren't one of the "regulars" who always crits in there your opinion isn't welcome. It's why I just end up lurking instead of posting.

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So the answer to creativity being stifled with newer dragons is to... go back in time and retroactively stifle the creativity of dragons that are already in the cave? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. If the climate in the critique thread is driving away good artists and creative dragon designs, then by all means start a thread about that. Whacking old dragons on the theory that "if new dragons can't be interesting then they might as well all be the same" is the worst rationale yet. If people want to redesign them because they will like them better that way that's one thing, but to redesign them because you're mad that new dragons aren't as creative as they were is just ALL kinds of wrong.

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10 minutes ago, tjekan said:

If people want to redesign them because they will like them better that way that's one thing, but to redesign them because you're mad that new dragons aren't as creative as they were is just ALL kinds of wrong.

uh...

1. the first thing would be way worse. i love dorsals, actually, but I think their sprites don't fit the cave aesthetic really. if we could just change them based on "i dont like this" no dragon in the cave would be safe. I don't like black teas or neotropicals - but they don't need fixing because there's nothing anatomically wrong with them.

 

2. im not mad new dragons "aren't as creative," I'm sorry you somehow gleaned that from my post. I'm "mad" (aka just like 'well i'd support a change and here's why but whatever,') because it's inconsistent and looks strange. 

 

It's about the cave having double - seemingly triple - standards. Not about the new sprites being ~uncreative~.

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As a concept creator, I adore both of my concepts that are in DR right now. @Alrexwolf I'm really sorry that the dragon you're talking about, the waxy substance wouldn't do for a very good reason, especially on the wings and I can further DM you about if you wish to know why since I really can't say on the matter in public (trust me, it was bad that most of the artists explained the real reason why)

 

As for my other concept, right now the sprite itself is unique (giving off alien vibes) that an *in-cave* artist took up spriting. I know people preferred the original sprites for those but those are completely unusable unfortunately and I know a few people who would hoard the current sprites in progress.

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6 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Yes, this, yes. 

 

I don't work much with lineages, so that specifically doesn't apply to me... But *many* of us have been here for a long, long time and one of the *reasons* for that is certain old sprites that we love. Whether we show that love by making long time-consuming lineages or collecting hundreds (or even thousands) of that specific sprite. We've played with these old dragons for so long because we love the way they look, the personality and feel of the sprite. When that changes in a drastic way, it really does feel like years of hard work has suddenly just been destroyed. Because that new shiny sprite is not the one we've been working with for years, it's not the one we've loved for years.

 

And the fact that DR is currently really nitpicky and frustrating to a lot of people? Why should that have any influence at all on what already-in-cave sprites look like? Whether the DR situation is fair or not, or too nitpicky or not, or whatever, that's all about *new* concepts. That really shouldn't have influence on what happens to already-accepted, already-in-cave sprites that people have loved and collected for years. 

 

 

YESSSS! Perfect way to say it, yes yes. That's very much what I loved about the old Reds (and the old Golds). 

Yes indeed.

3 hours ago, absofacto said:

because youre a human person and these are fictional cartoon dragons????????? were discussing a sprite not building a pipeline damn

Ok well, be like that - I hope you also read the second post  I made about "improving" old buildings. This IS exactly like that. Ruining the existing because, like, "modern" is better is not actually valid. History is important and so are old beloved sprites.

2 hours ago, tjekan said:

So the answer to creativity being stifled with newer dragons is to... go back in time and retroactively stifle the creativity of dragons that are already in the cave? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. If the climate in the critique thread is driving away good artists and creative dragon designs, then by all means start a thread about that. Whacking old dragons on the theory that "if new dragons can't be interesting then they might as well all be the same" is the worst rationale yet. If people want to redesign them because they will like them better that way that's one thing, but to redesign them because you're mad that new dragons aren't as creative as they were is just ALL kinds of wrong.

Thanks, tjekan. But the problem is that a lot of people who haven't been here all that long aren't invested in the old sprites and seem to want everything to look like the sprites that were current when they joined. A reasonable feeling which is like a slap in the face to those of us still mourning our gold medallions...

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6 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

History is important and so are old beloved sprites.

Oh! That's a great way of putting it! Because when will it end if we fix everything about the old sprites? People's focus are going to shift to the dragons being released now. The only release that has captured my attention are the ash dragons, no other sprite has captured my fancy. I still wish unbreedables were still a thing (still mourning the loss of the Orange Raptor Dino) but they're not. 

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8 minutes ago, Dalek Raptor said:

Oh! That's a great way of putting it! Because when will it end if we fix everything about the old sprites? People's focus are going to shift to the dragons being released now. The only release that has captured my attention are the ash dragons, no other sprite has captured my fancy. I still wish unbreedables were still a thing (still mourning the loss of the Orange Raptor Dino) but they're not. 

I wish they would, and leave history up there for us oldies. And just a side note - I could always start up a whine asking for the 2018 sprite I dislike to be changed for all the reasons I could cite. But I shan't, because - like all the old ones being whined about - it is what it is, I assume its spriter likes it, and I know loads of players do. We cannot all like everything; except for real disasters, like the one I forget where all the hatchies showed up totally blurred, once they get through the process and are released, can't we just accept them as who they are and move on to the next?

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This thread is a suggestion for new Dorsal Dragon sprites. Please refrain from suggesting or mentioning other sprites in need of updates, or using other sprites to argue why no sprites should be updated. Discussion should be solely about what parts of the Dorsals need fixing and how to fix it, or why Dorsal sprites - not old sprites in general - are fine the way they are.

Suggestions regarding other sprite updates should be in their own threads.

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my suggestion ... please leave them alone, especial;y the sprites.

 

wonder how Shiro Shorota feels about these comments... site aesthetics ???  really sounds a tad pretentious

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6 minutes ago, orphaned said:

my suggestion ... please leave them alone, especial;y the sprites.

 

wonder how Shiro Shorota feels about these comments... site aesthetics ???  really sounds a tad pretentious

 

While I’m not a big fan of updates, it’s more practical than pretentious; DC is a game, games need to attract people, they do that in various ways. Pokémon updated the sprites every generation whether we liked it or not, to better impress people. I’d argue there are a lot of core differences between DC and Pokémon, and less reason to update—but I can still see the other side of it. 

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15 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

 

While I’m not a big fan of updates, it’s more practical than pretentious; DC is a game, games need to attract people, they do that in various ways. Pokémon updated the sprites every generation whether we liked it or not, to better impress people. I’d argue there are a lot of core differences between DC and Pokémon, and less reason to update—but I can still see the other side of it. 

 

 

:hmm:  hmmm

 

guess my problem is that I have NEVER viewed them as a game ...  more of a dragon adoption site  :hug:

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20 minutes ago, orphaned said:

:hmm:  hmmm

 

guess my problem is that I have NEVER viewed them as a game ...  more of a dragon adoption site  :hug:

 

Whether game or adoptables site, it is still a website meant for entertainment and needs to look attractive, as ADP said. The sprites should be attracting - they’re the main feature, the reason everybody comes and stays. Having a good, whole aesthetic to the site is hardly pretentious; aesthetic just means a good appearance. If everything looked like different bits and pieces stuck together it would be a bad aesthetic, and like ADP said, not practical. That’s why I believe the Dorsal sprite (amongst others) should be updated - to make the site look like one site with a common aesthetic goal.

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6 minutes ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

Whether game or adoptables site, it is still a website meant for entertainment and needs to look attractive, as ADP said. The sprites should be attracting - they’re the main feature, the reason everybody comes and stays. Having a good, whole aesthetic to the site is hardly pretentious; aesthetic just means a good appearance. If everything looked like different bits and pieces stuck together it would be a bad aesthetic, and like ADP said, not practical. That’s why I believe the Dorsal sprite (amongst others) should be updated - to make the site look like one site with a common aesthetic goal.

 

 

fair enough ...

 

but ... hate to go Billy Joel on you ...I love them just the way they are  :wub:

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1 hour ago, orphaned said:

my suggestion ... please leave them alone, especial;y the sprites.

 

wonder how Shiro Shorota feels about these comments... site aesthetics ???  really sounds a tad pretentious

What they said

21 minutes ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

Whether game or adoptables site, it is still a website meant for entertainment and needs to look attractive, as ADP said. The sprites should be attracting - they’re the main feature, the reason everybody comes and stays. Having a good, whole aesthetic to the site is hardly pretentious; aesthetic just means a good appearance. If everything looked like different bits and pieces stuck together it would be a bad aesthetic, and like ADP said, not practical. That’s why I believe the Dorsal sprite (amongst others) should be updated - to make the site look like one site with a common aesthetic goal.

There are hundreds of sprites. Even by your standards most are attractive. Certainly those you cite are few in number and hardly enough to be worth driving existing players away. No I don't mean myself, but there is at least one person in this thread who left for a long time over the silvers. And actually I do think a "common aesthetic goal" sounds monstrously off-putting. It does look like one site. Except for the encyclopedia, you almost never see more than a few on one page anyway.

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14 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

So at what point is enough enough? Where is the line drawn? Because, logically, if older sprites are outdated and should be fixed, then in 8 or 9 years from now the *current* releases will be outdated and people will be wanting them fixed. That's common sense really. And I don't like that. I don't like this trend of replacing older sprites because they should 'fit new standards' or whatever, I don't like that more and more old sprites are vanishing, and I *don't* actually think that every single sprite should always fit some new arbitrary standard. 

 Personally, I think that blatant and glaring mistakes should be considered for correction. Very obviously wonky anatomy - which the dorsals have aplenty - is the main issue here. What I'd also like to see changed is very bad shading - lack of contrast, at the very least. (Did you know the dorsals have 4 or 5 different shades in the "black"/"slate" part of their bodies? Plus outlines, obviously. But the different shades have so little contrast that it's impossible to see without enlarging them. That is, clearly, bad shading, because it makes the sprite look incredibly flat and bland.

 

No, I'm not even going into textures and the like, because I honestly feel that not every dragon needs to be textured. Maybe they have smooth skin, it's not unthinkable, after all.

And, while some updates are more obvious than others and (maybe) should have stayed closer to the originals, there are numerous updates where the changes are either minimal or keep the feel of the original dragon as well as possible - especially of the adults in lineage view. Just look at a couple of these, courtesy of the dragcave wiki:

  • whiptails
  • waters ("blue dragons")
  • frills (female)
  • neotropicals
  • horses (female)
  • vampire
  • purple (female - the official "old" male sprite has never been released on the site)

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1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

What they said

There are hundreds of sprites. Even by your standards most are attractive. Certainly those you cite are few in number and hardly enough to be worth driving existing players away. No I don't mean myself, but there is at least one person in this thread who left for a long time over the silvers. And actually I do think a "common aesthetic goal" sounds monstrously off-putting. It does look like one site. Except for the encyclopedia, you almost never see more than a few on one page anyway.

 

agreed !!

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1 hour ago, olympe said:

 Personally, I think that blatant and glaring mistakes should be considered for correction. Very obviously wonky anatomy - which the dorsals have aplenty - is the main issue here. What I'd also like to see changed is very bad shading - lack of contrast, at the very least. (Did you know the dorsals have 4 or 5 different shades in the "black"/"slate" part of their bodies? Plus outlines, obviously. But the different shades have so little contrast that it's impossible to see without enlarging them. That is, clearly, bad shading, because it makes the sprite look incredibly flat and bland.

 

No, I'm not even going into textures and the like, because I honestly feel that not every dragon needs to be textured. Maybe they have smooth skin, it's not unthinkable, after all.

And, while some updates are more obvious than others and (maybe) should have stayed closer to the originals, there are numerous updates where the changes are either minimal or keep the feel of the original dragon as well as possible - especially of the adults in lineage view. Just look at a couple of these, courtesy of the dragcave wiki:

  • whiptails
  • waters ("blue dragons")
  • frills (female)
  • neotropicals
  • horses (female)
  • vampire
  • purple (female - the official "old" male sprite has never been released on the site)

 

first ... dragons are not real

 

second ... they are as the spriters perceive them to be

 

we have an amazing site here .where the talent is superb ...  for free

 

we all see them differently ... but this nitpicking is rather distressing

 

 

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4 hours ago, orphaned said:

 

first ... dragons are not real

 

second ... they are as the spriters perceive them to be

 

we have an amazing site here .where the talent is superb ...  for free

 

we all see them differently ... but this nitpicking is rather distressing

 

 

Dragons may not be real, but anatomy is. What an unimaginative counterpoint. Would so much of the dragon really be lost if it were to be given better anatomy?

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