Dorsal redesign?

[tjekan]

1 hour ago, Alrexwolf said:

Who are you to tell others how to play the game?

 

They didn't. They said there's MORE to the game than collecting, not that collecting is wrong.

 

This keeps coming down to some people believing that art is objective and objectively bad old art needs to be replaced with objectively good new art, versus other people who believe that art is subjective and that it's possible for people to like a more emotionally evocative older dragon better than a new one that meets the objective standards.

 

Neither view is wrong per se, but I think everyone needs to realize that there are a lot of people who legitimately feel the opposite way and the site and its solutions should really be accommodating both. Right now it seems the whole game is VERY skewed towards the opinions of people who care the most about the details of certain spriting techniques being done "right" and very little towards the people who care the most about the artistry and imagination of a design.

 

One doesn't have to throw one away to have the other. We could have both. In real-world paintings, we don't have to throw away or paint over all the old masters every century when something new comes along, do we? The truth is medieval art made the anatomy of every dragon on this site look like Da Vinci, but we still don't just burn it all.

 

If you want to collect them all, there IS going to be a dragon somewhere on your scroll you find ugly, no matter how much updating people do. There is no way around that, there are just too many dragons. There are ones on my scroll I think are ugly too. I don't agitate to have them changed or deleted.

[Jazeki]

I'm leaving my whole opinion regarding updates out, but I think the dorsal would look nice with minimal tweaks to its appearance, like shading. As long as it's not a complete revamp.

[Wymsical]

I've always liked the general design of Dorsals (along with the fact they have an alt that can be CB) and would be thrilled to see them get an updated sprite.

[skwerl56767]

   The game is "skewed toward people who want detailed updates" because, according to the wikia, sprite updates have been going on since the Great Fog; they've just slowed down immensely in all these later years. The Sprite updates at first happened when people either didn't like a sprite or if the sprite was anatomically incorrect, but now the updates are just there to fix anatomy and shading; anything else that's updated is done either because TJ demands it before releasing the updates, due to new cave standards, or the artist gets carried away, so to speak, and starts changing more of the sprite to fit said standards just out of opinion. It may be wrong, but it's also something we're stuck with, whether we want the updates or not. I'm fine with the updates, but if I wasn't, I still wouldn't believe I have grounds to complain because I see evidence of TJ trying to make the current standards the style of the entirety of DC (the extremely-tight regulation of DRs, for example). When I think about how aesthetic would benefit me as a dev, I realize it's the face of the site, its appeal to new players, a conveyor of my vision, and an advertisement in its own way. If DC started out with one standard and stuck with it throughout the years, we wouldn't have these conversations, because there would be no "older sprites" except in terms of age. Because there's a significant portion of the community though that has been around since before DC's standards matured, and TJ made dragon releases during those times too, there's an apparent divide. This would happen with any other game that gets significant updates as well - Minecraft, Tera, Skyrim Online, League of Legends, even Overwatch - should they have released early artwork of a different standard as well and decided "but oh, wait, the game needs a cohesive face and we don't have that with X character looking so different from all the other characters". And yes, they would change it, because a game that's not consistent feels broken or half-finished, in a way, unless it finds a way to sort of celebrate or draw further attention to the less polished sprites as a sort of feature, not just as a relic of the past (games with retro features hailing to the arcade era, for example).

   Also, I'm a little annoyed that there was the valid point of "solutions should accommodate both sides", and yet not a peep came from anyone regarding my suggestion (or what I remember being suggested at one point at time) to have a toggle for legacy sprites. I guess you guys think that's not feasible? Or maybe the arguing was just too passionate to consider a possible compromise. Regardless, have another one:
   Why not an account-specific, site-wide theme called Legacy? I remember people complaining about how busy/distracting/modernized/etc. the new site/forum background is (even I missed the old forum layout) and there's a good portion of breeds that have had updates; this site theme would not only revert the interface back to its older design, but could also display the original sprites of breeds instead of their newest ones. It also wouldn't interfere with whatever style or standards TJ has, because the only way to access the theme would be to make a DC account and enable it, so the "face" of the game to the public remains what he wants it to be, and what people who love detailed sprites like.

   EDIT: I forgot this thread is about the Dorsals. Some extra cents there: I don't see the perspective issue with the chest and the slight turn of the hips others are seeing. Is there shading distinguishing that twist that I'm also not seeing? I'm seeing only three big things that could be changed with the most minimal update: the floppy raised paw, the slight offset of the head, and the pillowy-looking shading of the wings. If the twisting spine is really a thing though, then I think the rear should be kept and the chest/head made to face slightly away from us, like the Dorsal is posing to show off its wings specifically. I do like how the pose is slightly turned like that.

Edited October 8, 2018 by skwerl56767

[tjekan]

2 minutes ago, skwerl56767 said:

Also, I'm a little annoyed that there was the valid point of "solutions should accommodate both sides", and yet not a peep came from anyone regarding my suggestion (or what I remember being suggested at one point at time) to have a toggle for legacy sprites. I guess you guys think that's not feasible?

 

Yeah, TJ shot down the idea of different sprite views for different accounts like 6 years ago. I'm guessing it would be a major pain to code and/or a resource hog to show each individual user a different sprite. If it's not possible it's not possible.

[LadyLyzar]

2nd reminder about this thread being only about the Dorsals.

 

If this thread continues to derail about all sprite updates, it will be closed.

[blah]

I like them the way they are. Adorable goat hatchies, the sleek, shiny body, the silky looking ruffles on their backs, the clear outline, the slinky pose and the dainty cat paws. And I don't want that to get lost just for a bit of shading. Also, Shiro has been excessively clear about what she wants.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

5 minutes ago, blah said:

Also, Shiro has been excessively clear about what she wants.

 

Can you direct us towards this?

 

 

 

Also, due to Lyzar's last comment, I made a thread:

For discussion of sprite updates as a whole, and not just the Dorsals

Edited October 8, 2018 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[blah]

3 minutes ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

Can you direct us towards this?

https://forums.dragcave.net/profile/4010-shiro-shitoro/

 

Quote

PS: Oh and if you think "Oh cool! I go ask if i can get permission for Balloon/Dorsal/Seasonal (what ever!)" don't even try. I will not respond to any other permissions and delete them! This also includes the other sprites i have here in my Account. I know you love those sprites and i love you too for loving them but i just can't give permissions because they will just get more and more to keep track with and i just don't want that. So thank you for taking your time to read through what i had laying so heavily on my heart for so many years and i hope that this might help me to finally forget what happend back then. And i also hope that you Guys and Girls understand that i won't give any permissions and that i don't take any comissions when it comes to Art or Spriting. I might do comissions one day, otherwise they just gonna stay avaiable for my closest friends i found in the past years.

-Shiro (again)

https://www.deviantart.com/shiroshitoro/art/The-Seasonal-Dragons-and-the-truth-behind-them-559275355

[Kavalier]

18 minutes ago, skwerl56767 said:

 I don't see the perspective issue with the chest and the slight turn of the hips others are seeing. Is there shading distinguishing that twist that I'm also not seeing? I'm seeing only three big things that could be changed with the most minimal update: the floppy raised paw, the slight offset of the head, and the pillowy-looking shading of the wings. If the twisting spine is really a thing though, then I think the rear should be kept and the chest/head made to face slightly away from us, like the Dorsal is posing to show off its wings specifically. I do like how the pose is slightly turned like that.

 

Seems like the issue with the rear isn't quite as easy to see at the current sprite size, mostly because that back leg practically blends in with the tail. Both have similar colors and line structure, and the lack of shading doesn't help to differentiate which limb is which - 

 

It may be easier to have the rear follow the chest's perspective, as then the majority of the sprite and its most major facets (frills, head, upper torso, etc) will stay in the same position; example

[HeatherMarie]

I definitely see the issue with the rear... The rest of the body looks to be a fairly straight-forward side view, with no real twists or curves. Then the butt is basically facing the viewer, at least it looks that way with the tail and frill placement, which throws off the 'side view' perspective. It kind of looks like... Like it's deliberately sticking it's butt out at us in some weird dance move or something. 

 

And if that was the only thing fixed, I'd be fine with it. Again, most sprite updates include fairly major changes to the overall feel of the sprite, and that's what I do not want to see happen with the Dorsals. I like the old-school feel of them, I like the less-then-perfect 'drawn' feel, and I don't want to lose that in the name of 'updates'.

[olympe]

Still, it should be possible to keep the pose mostly intact, merely changing the weird perspective, broken wrist and bendy neck. It should also be possible to keep the sleek look of the body and the slightly textile-like look of the dorsal fins, too.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

But the problem is, whoever takes up the mantel on fixing the anatomy issue with the butt will probably bring it up to standards (making it look newer) and that's what most of us DON'T want

[Nerei]

48 minutes ago, Dalek Raptor said:

But the problem is, whoever takes up the mantel on fixing the anatomy issue with the butt will probably bring it up to standards (making it look newer) and that's what most of us DON'T want

Why wouldn’t one want it brought up to standards? That sounds like very much a good thing. In this scenario correct anatomy is most definitely objectively good. 

[Fuzzbucket]

Because"up to standard" is subjective. I and some others love them just as they are and like the variety.

[Gluria]

"Up to standard" here means to me "physically possible anatomy" and that's most certainly not subjective.

[HeatherMarie]

For many people talking about this issue 'up to standard' means more detailed, more muscle or definition, more complex shading... More like newer releases. Compare the current Dorsal to our newest release, the Aether. *That* is some people's definition of 'up to standard', and while I love that sprite I certainly do not want the beautiful simplicity of the Dorsals to be changed like that.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Because"up to standard" is subjective. I and some others love them just as they are and like the variety.

+1 here 

[skwerl56767]

   Hm, I like the way the rump is turned though... if the shoulders switched places, so the front legs were in different places and turned the chest the other way, would that work with the head's current position? (I'm not sure if we're allowed to sketch new poses or if we're just not allowed to make spritework...)

[TJ09]

I'm going to close this thread because it's not actually actionable. As I mentioned earlier, "suggesting" sprite updates is not a thing, and there's already a thread for the most important philosophical points around sprite updates.