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Karmo

Help! Help! My trading is blocked forever.

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It was not a "debate" as much as a "we are right and you are not permitted to request changes".

 

I said "clear" bullet points - clear is arguably the more important bit. Bullet points just allow you to split out different bits of rules nicely.

 

How about saying the existing rules and then a bulleted list of a few specific cases which would be allowed or disallowed? Might help.

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3 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Bullet points would not help, as evidenced by the recent debate with the Terms and Conditions updates. 

 

Thank you for the poke, Blitzwing, I would consider ESL as an exception for lack of understanding. 

I think I found the report in question, and I am, frankly, irritated with how that worked out. If there is no reason given, then how the pit can we expect anyone to know how to correct it.

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The reason for no reasons may be the no messaging requirement. In that case, nothing can really be done.

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3 minutes ago, osmarks said:

The reason for no reasons may be the no messaging requirement. In that case, nothing can really be done.

I think staff, at the very least should be able to give a reason. Or even something automated.

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Just now, Starscream said:

I think staff, at the very least should be able to give a reason. Or even something automated.

It might be possible to use a bunch of preselected reasons. This is probably something known only by TJ09.

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Starscream: I don't know if you found the correct report, but Karmo stated their scroll name in another thread:

6 hours ago, Karmo said:

My account ID is 'didvk444'. 

 

Also:

14 minutes ago, Starscream said:

I think I found the report in question, and I am, frankly, irritated with how that worked out. If there is no reason given, then how the pit can we expect anyone to know how to correct it.

Well, TJ would probably argue that if you got temporarily banned, you should read the rules to find out what you did wrong. (Not that that actually works for the way the trading hub rules were and still are - lots of room for interpretation. You really need to be very fluent in English in order to get what the rules imply. It's these implication that are most likely to get lost in translation.)

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49 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

The text already specifically says 

'If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.'

 

I admit I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to other language and translations and such, but if *that* text isn't translated clearly, what exactly should the trade-ban text be that *would* communicate clearly what they did wrong?

 

I can tell you that people who do this professionally use clear, simple, direct instructions in the active voice with no circumlocutions. The sentence quoted above is roundabout, vague, and easily misunderstood. I just tested using Google Translate to transform it into Korean and back and got this misleading text back: "Once an open transaction is created, the message should be applied to a large number of people who use a transaction hub as well as a specific person." Which is not what you want people to interpret it as at all. Generally speaking, if you are using enough circumlocutions that Google text crumps on you when you test it, you've written a sentence non-fluent readers will not follow.

 

Clear, simple, direct: "Do not use the trading messages to talk to another user. No scroll names or forum names are allowed." (Notice that comes back clearly when passed into Korean and back through Google translate.)

 

There's nothing that can be done about the kind of users who willfully don't read instructions, but it's very likely that this user tried in good faith to follow the rules and was prevented by an unintelligible guideline and total lack of explanation during previous violations.

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8 minutes ago, tjekan said:

 

I can tell you that people who do this professionally use clear, simple, direct instructions in the active voice with no circumlocutions. The sentence quoted above is roundabout, vague, and easily misunderstood. I just tested using Google Translate to transform it into Korean and back and got this misleading text back: "Once an open transaction is created, the message should be applied to a large number of people who use a transaction hub as well as a specific person." Which is not what you want people to interpret it as at all. Generally speaking, if you are using enough circumlocutions that Google text crumps on you when you test it, you've written a sentence non-fluent readers will not follow.

 

Clear, simple, direct: "Do not use the trading messages to talk to another user. No scroll names or forum names are allowed." (Notice that comes back clearly when passed into Korean and back through Google translate.)

 

There's nothing that can be done about the kind of users who willfully don't read instructions, but it's very likely that this user tried in good faith to follow the rules and was prevented by an unintelligible guideline and total lack of explanation during previous violations.

that does, translate badly - and in all honesty I am not sure of a solution that would remedy it perfectly. I am on their side in this, not sure how much I can do, but we shall see.

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4 minutes ago, tjekan said:

 

I can tell you that people who do this professionally use clear, simple, direct instructions in the active voice with no circumlocutions. The sentence quoted above is roundabout, vague, and easily misunderstood. I just tested using Google Translate to transform it into Korean and back and got this misleading text back: "Once an open transaction is created, the message should be applied to a large number of people who use a transaction hub as well as a specific person." Which is not what you want people to interpret it as at all. Generally speaking, if you are using enough circumlocutions that Google text crumps on you when you test it, you've written a sentence non-fluent readers will not follow.

Ouch. Let me try this with a couple of other languages:

  • Japanese: When creating a public trade, the message must be applicable not only to a specific person, but also to many people using trading hubs.
  • Thai: If you create a public trade, your message should be used by a lot of people using a trading hub, not just a specific person.
  • Icelandic: If you create public transport, the message should apply to many who use the business center, not just a particular person.
  • French: If you are creating a public business, your message should apply to many people using the clearing house, not just to a particular person.
  • Swahili: If you create a public business, your message should be used to many people who use a business hub, not just a special person.
  • Hawaiian: If you do business trading, you need to apply your keywords to many people using the standard hub, not just a good person.
  • Armenian: If you create public trade, your message should be applicable to people who use a trade node rather than a specific person.
  • Zulu: When you create a public transaction, your message should apply to most people who use the trading harp, not just someone.
  • Yoruba: If you create a community business, your message should be helpful to many people by using a trading business, not just a specific person.
  • Burmese: If the public trade, your messages, using a specific trading center should apply to many people.
  • Azerbaijani: If you create a public trade, your message can only be applied to many people who use the business center, not just one person.
  • Saoman: If you are making a public transaction, you should be able to communicate to most people who use the trade, not just a specific person.
  • Maori: If you create a public trade, your message should benefit most people who use commercial trafficking as a non-personal person.

Some of these are less than helpful. :( 

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14 minutes ago, olympe said:

trading harp

That one is awesome XD

 

14 minutes ago, olympe said:

non-personal person

Huh?!

 

The thing is, we don't even know what the message in the non-English version says. Word by word, it may mean something entirely different - you were using the same translator machine, after all.

However, if one wants to peruse a site presented in English, one should at least understand enough to read the few rules that exist in it. If I wanted to play a game in, say, Japanese, I should probably prepare to be smitten by modly powers since I cannot read or understand Japanese at all. And then it would still be my own fault for trying so.

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Okay, I edited the trading hub text just a bit to: "If using an open trade, your message should be clear to many people browsing the trading center and not just any one person." I translated it to French before translating it back to English to get this: "If you use an open exchange, your message should be clear to many people browsing the mall and not just one person." I may edit this later with a few different languages olympe listed above but it's a lot better than the current version and translates a lot better in French

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Even your edited trading hub text doesn't exactly convey that your text should be addressed to many users instead of calling out a single user. A message like "Want: Dalek Raptor's last offer!" would be very clear to everyone, after all. 

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Why can't there be some kind of examples on the page for what the text is talking about? Would it hurt to provide a visual of the rules somewhere? Language translation is never going to be perfect, we have to accept and understand that. This is why going about different ways of communication, not just language, could be beneficial to getting the trading rules' point across. 

 

You just need a small, simple image or link to an image beneath the written rule, which would include an example of what NOT to do with X's and stuff over it. Something like that.

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7 minutes ago, olympe said:

Even your edited trading hub text doesn't exactly convey that your text should be addressed to many users instead of calling out a single user. A message like "Want: Dalek Raptor's last offer!" would be very clear to everyone, after all. 

I'm actually called Velociraptor on my scroll, but I do see your point. This is why I wanted clear rules in the hub in the first place. Maybe have a separate page for the rules with a link saying "A clear list of rules is found here."? could work

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26 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

However, if one wants to peruse a site presented in English, one should at least understand enough to read the few rules that exist in it.

 

Sure. And in return, if one wants international visitors to one's website, one should at least bother to post the few rules that exist in it simply, clearly, and in a logical place.

 

The OP should not have been expected to trawl through hundreds of forum posts in a language she speaks little of just to make sense of an ambiguously stated guideline so badly written that her online translator likely led her astray, leaving her to incorrectly guess what her previous infraction must have been since neither the system nor the admins informed her.

 

This is a free game, as we all know, so I don't think anybody's expecting professional levels of user support here, but it really wouldn't take much effort to make it accessible to everybody. The OP was neither cheating nor troublemaking. A warning with an actual explanation of the violation would have solved the problem. A direct statement of the forbidden actions in the first place would probably have kept it from ever happening in the first place.

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Lots of good suggestions about lists, etc.but I think the best suggestion was from osmarks:

"Do not mention people by scroll names/usernames."

 

Why can't it be that simple?

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I still wish we had a clear, unquestionable bulleted list of rules. There will always be loopholes or misunderstandings with a single paragraph, especially the vague one we have now. Is it better? Yes. But is it good enough? No. There are so many different rules that are so, so specific...that the current paragraph doesn't even begin to cover. I really wish we could get a response from TJ on why he's against a list, or seems to be judging by player suggestions vs what we got in the last update. 

 

The Trading Hub is supposed to be a convenient feature that is easier and more inclusive than forum trading. Yet we have to dig through the forum anyway to find a translation of the current "rules." That doesn't make sense.

Edited by The Dragoness

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Because there are other things that are clearly forbidden.

"Do not ask for specific eggs or hatchlings."

"Do not ask for offspring from specific dragons."

"Do not directly talk to one specific person."

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14 minutes ago, random_dragon_collector said:

Lots of good suggestions about lists, etc.but I think the best suggestion was from osmarks:

"Do not mention people by scroll names/usernames."

 

Why can't it be that simple?

Because there are other things that are clearly forbidden.

"Do not ask for specific eggs or hatchlings."

"Do not ask for offspring from specific dragons."

"Do not directly talk to one specific person."

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Just now, olympe said:

Because there are other things that are clearly forbidden.

"Do not ask for specific eggs or hatchlings."

"Do not ask for offspring from specific dragons."

"Do not directly talk to one specific person."

OK--so list those, right...?

Those are simple and clear.

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The other problem is that, as soon as that list gets too long, people won't read it. And if it's way too long, people will even be annoyed because of all the scrolling involved. :( Maybe put the bullet points (plus positive and negative examples) in a spoiler? 

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2 hours ago, olympe said:

I think very clear instructions of what not to do, phrased in the simplest way possible, would help.

For example, this

could be translated into this:

  • Do not write a message to one specific other player.
  • Do not ask for a specific code.
  • Do not ask for offspring of a certain dragon or small number thereof. Example: "Want: 2nd gen prizekin from (Jewel)." Or: "Want: 2nd gen from Valentine SA."
  • Do not ask for messages on the DC forums.

Each point is shorter and much better at conveying the point it's supposed to make. Which means that it should cause less confusion when being translated. It also leaves less to be read between the lines - hidden or semi-hidden content that's nearly impossible to translate in many cases.

 

(Bolding mine)

That's not allowed either? That's a clear want though. What makes either of those disallowed? The first example I can possibly understand, as it names a specific dragon. Though that seems pretty picky. The second one though doesn't name a specific named dragon/scroll/person, just a clear want from a specific type of dragon breed.

 

There really does need to be one spot, for a locked post, that lists item by item what is ok, and what isn't. As mentioned previously, here and in other threads, it's bits and pieces all over. We shouldn't have to read every post to get a clear understanding. Yes, not naming a specific person/scroll name is clear, and I get that. The rest is all over the place. And not communicating WHY someone got their first warning is setting them up for future failure, like in this instance. How do they know what not to do again, if they weren't told what they did wrong to begin with.

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@jocosa: I meant to be more specific. As a matter of fact, I was alluding to the Val '09 spriter's alts, of which there are two. So, there's only two people on DC who would be able to fulfill that want, which makes the message useless for pretty much everyone but Marrionetta and Sif. According to the trading hub rules, this should not be allowed. At least that's the way I understood the rules.

Edited by olympe
Stupid tags. :(

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I'd say "be direct" and "pick your battles." It may seem better to say some vague hand-waving thing like "Only list wants in your message" or "your communication should be applicable to many people" or "keep it trading-related only" and then banhammer anyone who you feel strays from the spirit of the unwritten law, but all that does is sour people on the trading hub and the game. Remember that there are a lot of kids here and a lot of people from different cultures. Not everyone is going to have the same idea of what kind of message is "trading-related" or what "applicable" really means. Just decide which things you truly cannot tolerate on the trading hub and then describe them directly and simply, something along the lines of "The message box is for trading, not chatting. Do not use inappropriate language, external links, or another player's name or scroll name. If you do those things, you may get banned." You will still have a little wiggle room covered by the phrase "inappropriate language" in case someone is being truly annoying without violating a specific rule, but otherwise, just let it go.

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1 hour ago, tjekan said:

 

Sure. And in return, if one wants international visitors to one's website, one should at least bother to post the few rules that exist in it simply, clearly, and in a logical place.

 

The OP should not have been expected to trawl through hundreds of forum posts in a language she speaks little of just to make sense of an ambiguously stated guideline so badly written that her online translator likely led her astray, leaving her to incorrectly guess what her previous infraction must have been since neither the system nor the admins informed her.

 

This is a free game, as we all know, so I don't think anybody's expecting professional levels of user support here, but it really wouldn't take much effort to make it accessible to everybody. The OP was neither cheating nor troublemaking. A warning with an actual explanation of the violation would have solved the problem. A direct statement of the forbidden actions in the first place would probably have kept it from ever happening in the first place.

Agreee!!! I do think the rules are better written though still not great. Also agreed with above;

and I didn't know asking for "any descendant of (Jewel)" would not be allowed and is bannable? Where does it say ? I think I understand the rules good enough yet I keep finding more and more throughout forum posts like this. 😕 

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