ANSWERED:Can We Please Have Prizes Available in the Market

[osmarks]

Regarding the people earlier saying it was a personal challenge or something to get a CB Prize like it would be a silver/gold - it's not at all the same. With cave hunting, there is tangible time investment and skill, but with the raffle it's purely luck.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

1 hour ago, osmarks said:

Regarding the people earlier saying it was a personal challenge or something to get a CB Prize like it would be a silver/gold - it's not at all the same. With cave hunting, there is tangible time investment and skill, but with the raffle it's purely luck.

 

I’m afraid unless you hold that opinion yourself you really can’t speak for the people who do. Personally I do see it as a challenge, and don’t care whether it’s RNG-based or not. It’s still a chance I have, and it’s something I can look forward to. And no, I don’t have a CB Prize yet.

 

I’m satisfied with the answer TJ gave - Prizes can’t be found in the cave, and as such shouldn’t be able to be purchased as though they were.

[HeatherMarie]

7 hours ago, TJ09 said:

My thoughts on the matter have already been quoted in this thread: The market was designed as a supplement specifically for the randomness of catching eggs in the cave, and so I don't really plan to add anything not available in the cave to the market.

 

 

(bolding for emphasis) To be honest this part is *exactly* why CB Prizes should be available in the Market. If the Market is designed to counter-balance the randomness of cave-catching, why can't it also be used to counter-balance the randomness of the raffles? At least cave-hunting is something that can be kinda-sorta influenced, in so much as the longer you spend refreshing a biome the better chance you have of seeing a specific breed, we don't even have that with raffles. Raffles are a lot more random then cave-hunting, imo, so I really don't understand the idea that one instance of randomness is what the Market is *for* but another instance of randomness will never be helped by the Market... That just doesn't really make sense to me. 

 

edit: However, if that's TJ's final answer, maybe I should stop arguing my point for a while. I really think Prizes in the Market would help *so* many users, and the game itself, in *so* many ways, but as I don't personally have a stake in this maybe my view isn't as important. I don't know. I get tired of trying to convince others that basing the availability of something shiny in a game on random luck, in numbers that will leave the majority of users without, is not a great idea.

Edited August 20, 2018 by HeatherMarie

[Shadowdrake]

Something I wanted to point out: prizes are a good deal more common than the other rares (at least breeding-wise) so in market they'd have to be set an arbitrary amount instead of letting the market do whatever according to ratios or they'd be incredibly cheap, probably. They're not in-cave so they wouldn't quite be affected by ratios the same way as a ton of CB golds suddenly appearing out of nowhere would do to the general gold population, since their genesis is already arbitrary on its own.

 

I imagine that people who buy a market gold because there's no prize would be incredibly upset if prizes appear a few months after. Probably even worse if they suddenly popped up after a few years of could-have-been-saving-up-for-them.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Shadowdrake

[animatedrose]

My only issue with adding CB prizes to the market (not a big fan of the idea but I can definitely see why people want it so I'm not against it either, it's all TJ's call in the end) RIGHT BEFORE anyone is just about to afford the current rarest things is...nobody knows exactly what's going to happen when everyone saving for, say, a Gold, finally purchases one. All at the same time. Will the market crash? Will the prices pitch so high that anyone not currently saving has such a low chance of ever getting one again without inputting years of saving? Or will nothing happen and some of us are worried about it for nothing?

 

We've just seen the prices fluctuate a little bit so far. Nothing drastic because nobody is anywhere near the purchase amount for those rares yet. And if a drastic price change does occur...then what would happen if everyone aimed for prizes instead? It seems most are basically thinking in the timeframe of 2-3 years just to get ONE prize derg from the market. I definitely wouldn't want to see the price jump to five or more years due to price change.

 

That's just my big worry. Something that, for all I know, won't even happen because TJ has ensured prices can't jump into an impossibly high range from everyone purchasing those rares at the same time. But until prices are locked, unless they're already locked within a certain unknown range that we don't know about yet and the fluctuation is just there to prevent stagnation...that's what I'm concerned for. It's one thing to be patient and save for a year and a half for a Chicken...but anything over the three year range is a bit overkill.

[Fuzzbucket]

54 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

(bolding for emphasis) To be honest this part is *exactly* why CB Prizes should be available in the Market. If the Market is designed to counter-balance the randomness of cave-catching, why can't it also be used to counter-balance the randomness of the raffles? At least cave-hunting is something that can be kinda-sorta influenced, in so much as the longer you spend refreshing a biome the better chance you have of seeing a specific breed, we don't even have that with raffles. Raffles are a lot more random then cave-hunting, imo, so I really don't understand the idea that one instance of randomness is what the Market is *for* but another instance of randomness will never be helped by the Market... That just doesn't really make sense to me. 

 

edit: However, if that's TJ's final answer, maybe I should stop arguing my point for a while. I really think Prizes in the Market would help *so* many users, and the game itself, in *so* many ways, but as I don't personally have a stake in this maybe my view isn't as important. I don't know. I get tired of trying to convince others that basing the availability of something shiny in a game on random luck, in numbers that will leave the majority of users without, is not a great idea.

 

I totally agree with Heather here.

 

3 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

Something I wanted to point out: prizes are a good deal more common than the other rares (at least breeding-wise) so in market they'd have to be set an arbitrary amount instead of letting the market do whatever according to ratios or they'd be incredibly cheap, probably. They're not in-cave so they wouldn't quite be affected by ratios the same way as a ton of CB golds suddenly appearing out of nowhere would do to the general gold population, since their genesis is already arbitrary on its own.

 

I imagine that people who buy a market gold because there's no prize would be incredibly upset if prizes appear a few months after. Probably even worse if they suddenly popped up after a few years of could-have-been-saving-up-for-them.

 

Prizes do seem to breed well. But CB prizes are still very very very vanishingly rare in comparison with any other CBs.

 

I would indeed be annoyed if I saved for a gold and then prizes showed up after I'd bought it. But I'd still save like mad at once !

[olympe]

58 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

8 hours ago, TJ09 said:

My thoughts on the matter have already been quoted in this thread: The market was designed as a supplement specifically for the randomness of catching eggs in the cave, and so I don't really plan to add anything not available in the cave to the market.

(bolding for emphasis) To be honest this part is *exactly* why CB Prizes should be available in the Market. If the Market is designed to counter-balance the randomness of cave-catching, why can't it also be used to counter-balance the randomness of the raffles? At least cave-hunting is something that can be kinda-sorta influenced, in so much as the longer you spend refreshing a biome the better chance you have of seeing a specific breed, we don't even have that with raffles. Raffles are a lot more random then cave-hunting, imo, so I really don't understand the idea that one instance of randomness is what the Market is *for* but another instance of randomness will never be helped by the Market... That just doesn't really make sense to me. 

Very much this, couldn't have worded it better. (And, yes, I wanted to ask the very same thing.)

[Suzumiya]

While I would love to own a CB Prize, especially a Gold or Silver tinsel, my favorites, I do understand why TJ won't put them on the Market. It would make them less rare.

 

However...the ones bought from the Market would be specifically marked "Market" whereas real Prize dragons would be marked "Cave", so you would know if you were getting a Prize dragon from a 'real' Prize or a 'market' Prize, which makes it...possible to not be a catastrophe for CB Prize owners. I can easily see people wanting a REAL CB Prize, therefore entering the raffle all the time, but I can also see people like myself (who have never won a prize and probably never will) being happy to just get a CB Market Prize, but still entering the raffle in hopes of a real one. Maybe the Market tinsels/shimmers could be slightly different? Like, maybe less shine or something? Just made a little duller looking? They'd still be gorgeous and recognizable as prize dragons, but not REAL ones.

 

Another thing, I don't even know if this is the right place for this...people shouldn't be allowed to win like 3 raffles in a row. I have seen people with THREE FREAKIN' CB GOLD TINSELS! That just makes me so frustrated. I know it's total luck and we all have a chance, but...seriously, just...wtf? I'd love to see a limit on the amount of CB Prizes one can own, or even a waiting period for you to be able to win another raffle if you already won one. Now, not totally disqualify you from the raffle. Just...say you won the grand prize, a Gold Tinsel. You would no longer be able to win a tinsel from the raffle for awhile, but you would still have a chance to win a shimmer, and vice versa. I just think that's more fair. It almost makes me sick seeing people with all these purebred tinsels in the trading hub. I mean, HOW DOES SOMEONE EVEN GET THREE CB PRIZES!? Aghhh! I guess I'm just jealous!  

[olympe]

I don't mind things being rare, at least not as much as I used to, and by a long shot, too. But the level of rarity that CB prizes have is nothing short of ridiculous. It creates a very small elite club within the game.

 

Personally, I'd rather have prizes be about as common as GoNs, with several on each scroll (after some time) and not be able to buy anything rare (like CB rares, 2nd gen SA offspring and the like) than be unable to really do much with them at all. (Yes, I know we can easily breed stairstep lineages. However, I'm much more fascinated by checkerboards... Try breeding those, though.)

[purplehaze]

46 minutes ago, Suzumiya said:

However...the ones bought from the Market would be specifically marked "Market" whereas real Prize dragons would be marked "Cave", so you would know if you were getting a Prize dragon from a 'real' Prize or a 'market' Prize, which makes it...possible to not be a catastrophe for CB Prize owners. I can easily see people wanting a REAL CB Prize, therefore entering the raffle all the time, but I can also see people like myself (who have never won a prize and probably never will) being happy to just get a CB Market Prize, but still entering the raffle in hopes of a real one. Maybe the Market tinsels/shimmers could be slightly different? Like, maybe less shine or something? Just made a little duller looking? They'd still be gorgeous and recognizable as prize dragons, but not REAL ones.

I think the Tinsel creator, at least, has nixed recoloring them when it was suggested earlier. Even if she should agree I don't see this as necessary and it would make it even harder for those who want to build pretty checker lineages! People who care about the origin of the Prize will be able to tell easily enough by looking at whether it says market or cave. Those who don't care don't care.

[Fuzzbucket]

59 minutes ago, Suzumiya said:

Another thing, I don't even know if this is the right place for this...people shouldn't be allowed to win like 3 raffles in a row. I have seen people with THREE FREAKIN' CB GOLD TINSELS! That just makes me so frustrated. I know it's total luck and we all have a chance, but...seriously, just...wtf? I'd love to see a limit on the amount of CB Prizes one can own, or even a waiting period for you to be able to win another raffle if you already won one. Now, not totally disqualify you from the raffle. Just...say you won the grand prize, a Gold Tinsel. You would no longer be able to win a tinsel from the raffle for awhile, but you would still have a chance to win a shimmer, and vice versa. I just think that's more fair. It almost makes me sick seeing people with all these purebred tinsels in the trading hub. I mean, HOW DOES SOMEONE EVEN GET THREE CB PRIZES!? Aghhh! I guess I'm just jealous!  

 

That's what RNG does. We have to live with THAT. But very good point about the market ones showing as market and thus being "less special", if you like.

[tjekan]

I think it's kind of odd to feel like randomly won eggs are more special than ones you 'earn' over time. I legitimately wouldn't care whether I had a CB prize from the raffle or the market. It's all the same to me. Since no one's talking about removing the monthly raffles, though, people who do feel that way wouldn't have their chances of getting the eggs they want diminished at all.

 

I can understand why the OG prize winners would have a different perspective, since they won their prizes through the rest of the userbase voting them the winners of an art contest. However, those OG prize winners have already had many special advantages accrue from their victory, and I don't see the market diluting that any more than the random raffles have.

 

If TJ's not feeling it, it doesn't bother me any for it not to be added. There's still nothing in the marketplace that makes me want to buy it at that point, though. I wish you'd put SOMEthing in there that wasn't either easily obtainable from the cave or has been available for so many years that I already have it by now anyway.

[Fuzzbucket]

The first contest was one of the MOST unfair things I have ever seen on DC, and if it were ever repeated I wouldn't even enter.

[Starscream]

17 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

The first contest was one of the MOST unfair things I have ever seen on DC, and if it were ever repeated I wouldn't even enter.

I agree 100% on that.

[tjekan]

21 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

The first contest was one of the MOST unfair things I have ever seen on DC, and if it were ever repeated I wouldn't even enter.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, but from the point of view of one of the winners, it was still something creative they spent time and effort on and won a popularity contest for. I can understand how they would consider that prize more special to them than another one they won later in a random raffle. I'm not saying I want to see another contest like that ever again. 🙂

[Fuzzbucket]

Given the way the "voting" went, I wouldn't be especially PROUD if I'd won, though I admit I'd have loved the prize!

[Natayah]

I've seen TJ have very final and firm thoughts on things, and that is how it is settled for now or that period of time. But I've also seen things be reversed or implemented over time that either was a change of mind/heart, or something that went totally opposite or different than the way we "thought they would always be." I also remember my shock and to some degree I was actually a bit miffed when certain changes were implemented, as things I had worked very hard to acquire now suddenly had lost all their value and they were the few things I had, due to rarity, that had value, and one of the few things I could trade for better stuff. But ... that passed soon enough because really I want people to be able to enjoy making lineages and collecting things, and for me, I don't do so much breeding myself, but I encourage others, and then I usually take of the offspring of their hard work because I appreciate how awesome it looks as it progresses.

 

I've come to realize, despite how much I love Breeding and Lineages and supporting people and collecting certain types of dragons, I'm a great cheerleader and promoter, but I'm not willing to generally put in that much time work and effort myself. I take the work of others and build upon that. And I really enjoy that. So mostly that makes my scroll filled with "lovely projects from other people, that I collect and regift and combo with other projects into stuff I think is really neat and interesting." The only time I tend to "breed lineages" is if there is something exceedingly special and rare and unique for that "Lineage" that was worth putting the work into, but usually it is something on a smaller scale, it just takes very creative thinking. I've done that a few times, and that is it. But I treasure those dragons, and I am really glad for all the various changes. I like having a CB Holly now. Most of my scroll is a collection of CBs of all breeds of a certain number just in case I ever want to use them for something, and then the offspring (often higher gen checkers or even gens, I really love those longer lineages), and thats about it. You won't find a lot of 2Gs on my Scroll cuz I just am not going to breed checkers cuz I just am more productive and enjoy spending my time here doing other things and fostering fun and support so people who like that stuff enjoy it and continue to do it and help have better ways to share it. But you want to have a Breeding Event, you need donations for a Raffle - I'm down for anything Event related! (This is a tangent, but it ties in.)

 

So I really appreciate all those people who not only want to be able to collect every dragon and will spend the time creating time consuming lineages that I will one day want a much work involved offspring of. I reap the benefits without so much of the work, but most people at least appreciate that I really really do appreciate their work. So there is that. But I am highly unlikely to ever be that person who would want to breed a Prize Dragon with a super common newer release and to dedicate myself to it and no matter how many times they do not produce Prize Eggs I will continue as this is my Breeding quest! I would love others to have a chance to do that too. I want people to be able to create and have fun, especially when it is hard work or nearly impossible to find. Some of my most prized dragons are not my super rare dragon, but the fact I was finally able to track down the owner of some dragons or lineage I've been obsessed with for years and I got an offspring from them and it just ... I am speechless with the joy. It is the struggle, the timing, and the fact that I had to work so hard and wanted it for so long and another part is just sometimes knowing people or just getting lucky. That is just part of DC.

 

This is not about how these dragons are more valued because you get lucky or anything like that. Don't take that message. My point is that TJ is unlikely to change how "Prize" Dragons are distributed in the near future, but it is very possible something that could happen in the more distant future. I don't necessarily mean 3-10 years from now. Maybe in a year or two. But also by that time, there are going to be a *LOT* of Prize Dragons floating around in the Community. Lots of Prize owners work together to create the lineages and breed rare things and look to gift 2Gs and such. So I understand while you may not be able to personally do it yourself, and that is deeply what you really want, at least we are getting there. And you can get those lines too on your own scrolls. It just isn't something you personally did each step of the way.

 

As time goes on, those 2G Prizes are also going to have less and less value. I think in time, we'll stop calling them Prize Dragons, because they will be less "prized" in our desire and lose a lot of their value. That does make me a little sad because the reason they were created was specifically be something very special and unique. I am also totally OK with them being in the Marketplace, but I would like their price to be more than a year's worth of shards. I feel it really needs to be at least 2 years worth of shards. I would like the original concept to still be special.

 

I've also seen people remark on how "they can never ever afford or hope to acquire a 2G Prize." That just isn't true anymore. The raffles are monthly, they will continue to become more and more common. It may be true that you cannot afford to trade for one at your Bronze or Silver Trophy level. But simple economics, even with people fading away and leaving the game now and again, or just going to constantly drive the price down.

 

It also makes me sad that some people figure 2G Prizes are just not worth it unless they can breed them personally from a CB Prize. Ultimately there have to be some "Gold Standards" to have a solid economy. Fiat currency isn't very great, you can't just keep dumping more and more into the economy and expect them to be the thing that hold value. Sometimes 3G prize lines are worth something, sometimes they are not. There are some things we consider base standards, Prize Dragons, Gold & Silver Dragons, NDs, other Rare to Uncommon Dragons that people love or are in demand. It is having these things slightly to pretty darn rare that continues them to allow them to continue to be the base of our economy. Everything collapses when it is too much.

 

So I want you to have all your dreams come true, I also want the game to be able to maintain some value and economy, and things do change with time. Even things we never thought would happen (Frills & Arias Came back!!!). So - who knows. So I just hope that people don't get discouraged and while they continue to discuss this, you might get all your wishes one day, but it might just be something down the road. The Raffles themselves are happening monthly, for what now.. only a bit over a year? It's still a pretty new game things at that point. I just want people to understand the ramifications when it becomes easy to attain all things. If it doesn't require enough work and effort, or pure luck, the dragon may be valued by you and you love it personally, but you aren't necessarily going to get rich or attain your other dream dragons because you got that. If you want those, you are still going to have to do all the other old things you had a harder time doing. We have Player Events and Raffles where people donate rare and hard to find things. I have a lot of fun with those, and so do a ton of people. People seem to really like those raffles and seem to really enjoy the chance to get rare shiny uncommon things just by luck. Most games you have to grind and grind and grind to win these days. I hate those games. I'm ok with however TJ decides to go, and I hope that if you can't always get 100% of what you want, that you don't ever think it will "never" happen, and that you still enjoy the game and the Community of people. I think those are the best parts of DC, and it was the reason I came back. That is what I Prize most of all. I named one of my 2G Prize babies "I Won DC" to be specifically very sarcastic. You don't win or lose this type of game really ever. You are the one who determines if you are a Winner or not here. So don't give up Hope, but don't ever let it get you down or let you not enjoy the game. There are still a lot of great things in the meantime, and we've been through a lot in over 10 years. And that includes changes that people have really really wanted, and things that drastically impacted play in many ways. We'll continue to have those things.

[Syiren]

9 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

I’m afraid unless you hold that opinion yourself you really can’t speak for the people who do. Personally I do see it as a challenge, and don’t care whether it’s RNG-based or not. It’s still a chance I have, and it’s something I can look forward to. And no, I don’t have a CB Prize yet.

 

I’m satisfied with the answer TJ gave - Prizes can’t be found in the cave, and as such shouldn’t be able to be purchased as though they were.

^This in a nutshell. When people play the lottery, they challenge themselves to guess the right numbers. When people set a goal they have a better chance of achieving, they challenge themselves to meet that goal. They're different types of challenges, but they're challenges none the less.

 

[osmarks]

You don't even pick a number in the raffle. You just click a button, wait about a month and hope. It's not fun for most.

[olympe]

7 minutes ago, Syiren said:

^This in a nutshell. When people play the lottery, they challenge themselves to guess the right numbers. When people set a goal they have a better chance of achieving, they challenge themselves to meet that goal. They're different types of challenges, but they're challenges none the less.

 

So, we totally challenge ourselves to, what, raise three dragons just in time to hit the "enter raffle" button before the drawing? Nope, not a challenge. Winning? Not a challenge, either, because there's neither effort involved nor improving a skill or anything. Just clicking a button and waiting for next month to repeat the process. Not a challenge, not fun, just annoying and frustrating.

[JavaTigress]

6 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I would indeed be annoyed if I saved for a gold and then prizes showed up after I'd bought it. But I'd still save like mad at once !

This.... totally this.

 

For myself PERSONALLY, I'd like to see them in the market, even IF that would mean having to save a while for one.

Don't get me wrong, if I actually won one, I'd be thrilled to death.

 

That said...so far no luck at all AND I don't think the possibility of buying one would make me any less thrilled if I DID win.

Ah well, if TJ says nope then all I can do is continue to enter in the hope that someday the RNG will decide to smile on me.

 

[Syiren]

3 hours ago, olympe said:

So, we totally challenge ourselves to, what, raise three dragons just in time to hit the "enter raffle" button before the drawing? Nope, not a challenge. Winning? Not a challenge, either, because there's neither effort involved nor improving a skill or anything. Just clicking a button and waiting for next month to repeat the process. Not a challenge, not fun, just annoying and frustrating.

Hey, I want a CB Prize just as much as the next person, but I also know that there are plenty of things in life that are going to be nearly impossible to obtain. Everyone wants a really nice car, and some of the best go for $500k+ not everyone is going to be able to get them, even if you save up and buy it 10+ years down the road, there will be those extremely exotic models that coast 1-2 million that only the few get to buy and enjoy. 

 

I'm not going to say anymore on the matter for reasons I've already mentioned. I'm going back to enjoy the cave. I'm sorry for others who aren't happy. I'm neutral on the subject, so my opinion doesn't carry much weight. It's just how I see it. I'll still enjoy my personal challenge and if the day comes when I get my CB Prize I'll do what I can to help others with their lineages, because that's how I play. I've given far more eggs than I've ever traded.

[GalaxyCrossed]

Tbh, as an original Shimmerscale prize winner, it seems kinda stupid to have them in the market. These are special dragons FOR A REASON. I feel dragons like these should really be up to luck, to preserve their status as PRIZES. You don't win carnival prizes by paying the carnie more money, and that is almost what it would be like if they were placed on the market. Sure, it might not be REAL money, but it still takes away the suspense.

 

It just feels wrong to have prize dragons be treated like most of the other dragons. They are special. They should stay that way. If people can just "buy" them, then it gives those of us who had gotten lucky a big middle finger. I am super proud of getting a shimmer the first year they were released. I think of it as a great achievement, even though it was entirely by luck. I want other people to feel the same way as I did when I got that email. Winning a prize is special, but being able to buy one takes that away and makes it less of a game. And that is sorta what this site is; a game.

[Jazeki]

I dunno. I would be just as happy the day that I am able to be buy a tinsel or a shimmer as the day that I ever open a winning email or notification. We certainly shouldn't be dictating how people are supposed to feel. 

 

Holidays are now available in cave again and you can buy frills in the market and those were both hm prizes at one time (that people picked). I suppose that's not as much as a middle finger then?

 

Again, I am wishing the introduction of exclusive dragons were never a thing. I don't agree with TJ's decision and I wish there was some way to make these dragons more obtainable if people can't agree on using the market.

[Syiren]

48 minutes ago, Ashura09 said:

Tbh, as an original Shimmerscale prize winner, it seems kinda stupid to have them in the market. These are special dragons FOR A REASON. I feel dragons like these should really be up to luck, to preserve their status as PRIZES. You don't win carnival prizes by paying the carnie more money, and that is almost what it would be like if they were placed on the market. Sure, it might not be REAL money, but it still takes away the suspense.

 

It just feels wrong to have prize dragons be treated like most of the other dragons. They are special. They should stay that way. If people can just "buy" them, then it gives those of us who had gotten lucky a big middle finger. I am super proud of getting a shimmer the first year they were released. I think of it as a great achievement, even though it was entirely by luck. I want other people to feel the same way as I did when I got that email. Winning a prize is special, but being able to buy one takes that away and makes it less of a game. And that is sorta what this site is; a game.

Thank you! This is how I feel about the Prizes. They are special and if I ever win one it'll make my day. That's the joy of the personal challenge I was referring to. That moment when you obtain it, it's such an amazing feeling that can't be replicated with simply buying it. 

 

It's like when playing a pokemon game, you go into the grass to continue your journey, or train your team and out pops a shiny! You didn't expect it, but it's so rare you're excited to catch it!