ANSWERED:Can We Please Have Prizes Available in the Market

[HeatherMarie]

If we want shards to influence Prize-getting chances, why wouldn't it be better to simply make earning enough shards equal a Prize.... ie, putting them in the Market? I'm not sure I understand that. Also, regardless of what is used to 'increase' raffle chances, it's *still* a random luck-based *chance* that will leave out the *vast* majority of players (see earlier calculations on time frame). I don't want a better *chance* at a random raffle that I have no control over and will still leave out most players. I want a better *way* to *get* CB Prizes that doesn't involve relying on pure luck for years and years and years.

[osmarks]

2 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

If we want shards to influence Prize-getting chances, why wouldn't it be better to simply make earning enough shards equal a Prize.... ie, putting them in the Market? I'm not sure I understand that. Also, regardless of what is used to 'increase' raffle chances, it's *still* a random luck-based *chance* that will leave out the *vast* majority of players (see earlier calculations on time frame). I don't want a better *chance* at a random raffle that I have no control over and will still leave out most players. I want a better *way* to *get* CB Prizes that doesn't involve relying on pure luck for years and years and years.

The market approach is probably better for fairness etc, but the more-chances-via-shard-gathering would keep the people who want RNG happier.

Edited August 19, 2018 by osmarks

[49ER]

Erm....I forgot another thing, the other thing people who trade 2g prizes want is 2g SA...another thing that leaves people out of trading that are not spriters.

[Fuzzbucket]

20 minutes ago, 49ER said:

I have seen the hub AND the forum,  They want the same things.

 

Not in my experience; you can't trade on the hub for 15 common hatchies, to take but one example.

 

11 minutes ago, 49ER said:

Erm....I forgot another thing, the other thing people who trade 2g prizes want is 2g SA...another thing that leaves people out of trading that are not spriters.

 

We are asking for ways for more of us to get CB prizes. Not discussing what it would cost you for a 2 gen. But if you'd like a 3 gen even prize, I just put one up for trade...

 

As for 2 gen SAs - I asked spriters for the ones I have - I needed them for a lineage - and almost all of them said sure. IIRC a whole two of them asked for something in exchange. Not that that's relevant either.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[olympe]

Seriously, I doubt we'd get any changes done to The Raffle TM that will skew the chances in favor of certain groups, be it people who haven't won yet or those who are more active. In my opinion, the raffle as the sole distributor of the rarest of dragons is flawed in and of itself. You can literally play forever and not win a CB prize ever, while someone else will be able to win multiple in a couple of months. And while the actual chance of winning is the same for everyone, it's a really bad idea for a collectibles game to make something that exclusive with no guaranteed way to obtain it eventually. Because, let's face it, even if someone would be willing to trade away a CB prize, they can't, and for good reasons.

 

Yet, at the same time, all players who want to use the shiny Prizes for anything but stairstep lineages depend on those few lucky winners to breed 2nd gens for them. And, let's be frank, most 2nd gens are getting swapped for other 2nd gens (either Prizes or SA lines), excluding the vast majority of players from part of the game. This exclusivity is the most important fact about Prizes that doesn't sit well with me.

 

24 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

You think this is an issue in and of itself. I don't. (And others who have posted before don't either.) To me the raffle is a little skewed, and could be improved, but I like the concept of a raffle. (In case anyone was wondering, no, I don't have a CB Prize).

 

Why not discuss alternate options, such as the ones I have proposed?

Because these "alternate options" have already been discussed a lot, and ultimately been shot down by TJ. Case closed. Plus, random stays random, and buying 10 tickets for a lottery won't magically make you win it. Even buying 1000 tickets won't do the trick. You still have to be incredibly lucky to win.

 

20 minutes ago, osmarks said:

What about shard earnings increasing raffle somethingorother without any actual shard cost?

This might seem like it would help, but eventually, people will figure out that random stays random, and a 10 out of 80000 chance (because not everyone gets to the highest tier) is not much better than 1 out of 10000. It's like giving a pacifier to a very hungry baby. Eventually the baby will figure out that the pacifier doesn't sate hunger. Just like getting extra tickets won't result in a win.

 

11 minutes ago, osmarks said:

The market approach is probably better, but the more-chances-via-shard-gathering would keep the people who want RNG happier.

So, what if they can keep their raffle and we can have Prizes available in the market? win:win? 

[Fuzzbucket]

2 minutes ago, olympe said:

So, what if they can keep their raffle and we can have Prizes available in the market? win:win? 

[HeatherMarie]

5 minutes ago, olympe said:

Seriously, I doubt we'd get any changes done to The Raffle TM that will skew the chances in favor of certain groups, be it people who haven't won yet or those who are more active. In my opinion, the raffle as the sole distributor of the rarest of dragons is flawed in and of itself. You can literally play forever and not win a CB prize ever, while someone else will be able to win multiple in a couple of months. And while the actual chance of winning is the same for everyone, it's a really bad idea for a collectibles game to make something that exclusive with no guaranteed way to obtain it eventually. Because, let's face it, even if someone would be willing to trade away a CB prize, they can't, and for good reasons.

 

 

Yes yes yes and yes. 

 

The thing is, skewing raffle chances in any way won't actually do anything to make *more* people able to get CB Prizes. There will still be a *very* large majority of the playerbase that won't get one, for years, even if they take every possible raffle-increasing opportunity. Because the raffle is 'random'. And based on luck. And there are so few given out and so many players. So that sort of suggestion doesn't actually do anything about the general wrongness of CB Prizes only being available to a very tiny portion of users. The only way *any* sort of raffle-tweaking would help the majority of players would be if the actual number of Prizes given out was increased substantially, which I very much doubt would happen.

Edited August 19, 2018 by HeatherMarie

[49ER]

Kind of unfair to call someone out about talking about difficulty in trading when you point out how easy you have been able to trade for them?  I think it is relevant, being that people want these available because trading for 2gs is usually contained within the prize winners and spriters.  Which is why we want them available in market, or at least that is why I want them there.

[osmarks]

Good catch. I forgot about adding more chances still keeping the same number of winners. With that in mind, I think that unless the number of winners autoscales somehow, the market would just generally be better,

[HeatherMarie]

That's not why 'people' want them available though, that's why *some* people might want them available. I personally want them accessible in a realistic way to more of the userbase because I believe that's a better thing for the game and the userbase as a whole, I believe it will make more people excited and happier about Prizes in general, and I believe it is much more 'fair' to be able to *work* towards a goal rather then rely on blind luck. Not everyone cares whatsoever about 2nd-gen Prizes.

[Aalbiel]

12 minutes ago, olympe said:

So, what if they can keep their raffle and we can have Prizes available in the market? win:win? 

 

Clearly we don't think so or we wouldn't be arguing. See all previous points.

A middle ground would be making the raffle more fair and accessible, not having 2 parallel systems.

[osmarks]

Just now, Aalbiel said:

 

Clearly we don't think so or we wouldn't be arguing. See all previous points.

A middle ground would be making the raffle more fair and accessible, not having 2 parallel systems.

The trouble with changing raffle tickets is that there would still be a lot of randomness, but this time only within the top group of active players, as the 60 prize a month limit would presumably remain.

[olympe]

4 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

Clearly we don't think so or we wouldn't be arguing. See all previous points.

A middle ground would be making the raffle more fair and accessible, not having 2 parallel systems.

According to the gods of RNG, the raffle already is fair. And it's easily accessible to everyone. No matter how you skew the raffle for the sake of perceived fairness, it won't accomplish anything you want it to. Not to mention that anything skewing the raffle has been shot down by TJ. So, your points were? (Shot down. Shot down. Shot down...)

 

What we need is something different, which leaves a) in-cave release or b) availability through the shop or c) randomly dropping CB prizes in the AP, which isn't much different from an in-cave release anyway.

[Aalbiel]

7 minutes ago, olympe said:

According to the gods of RNG, the raffle already is fair. And it's easily accessible to everyone.

 

Yep. I agree. This is true, and I'd be happy with the status quo, no problem here. The raffle is completely fair, literally everyone who enters has an equal chance.

 

7 minutes ago, olympe said:

What we need is something different

No, we really, really don't. And none of you have made a point as to why this needs to happen, beyond "my personal play style isn't being catered to". TJ has stated many times in different contexts that he is NOT going to put any special status on things being CB (I will dig this up since as I am asking you for quotes (below) I will of course conform to that standard), so according to that logic why on earth should he make sure everyone can have a CB Prize?

 

 

I don't believe that /ANYTHING/ skewing the raffle was shot down by TJ, just certain options that were. I'll accept I might have missed that, but in that case I'll need you to point me towards that, it's kinda iffy to quote something without.... ya know.... quoting it.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Aalbiel

[Shadowdrake]

You all keep arguing about the raffle being "fair". What does "fair" mean here? Is it more "fair" for everyone to have the same chance at a prize, regardless of activity or interest in DC, or is it more "fair" for active players to have a greater chance because of their hard work? If a CB prize is considered the final challenge of DC, is it "fair" that the majority of players will never "win the game" for the entirety of DC's lifespan?

 

And prizes were first concepted as a contest prize, not a raffle. Special, certainly, but hardly fair in the sense of a raffle.

 

I'm not going to even touch on what special means, since clearly GoNs and upside-down mints aren't special enough.

[osmarks]

CB things aren't intrinsically valuable, sure, but due to being rarer than non-CB variants get more trade value and therefore provide more ability to get stuff you want.

[olympe]

@Aalbiel: Then why do you propose to "make the raffle more fair and accessible" if it already is just that, and perfectly so?

 

And, yes, we do need something different. Because, the way things are, most of the player base are locked out of creating lineages of their choice with 6 of the most coveted breeds. That, in and of itself, is reason enough in my book.

Edited August 19, 2018 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

4 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

You all keep arguing about the raffle being "fair". What does "fair" mean here? Is it more "fair" for everyone to have the same chance at a prize, regardless of activity or interest in DC, or is it more "fair" for active players to have a greater chance because of their hard work? If a CB prize is considered the final challenge of DC, is it "fair" that the majority of players will never "win the game" for the entirety of DC's lifespan?

 

And prizes were first concepted as a contest prize, not a raffle. Special, certainly, but hardly fair in the sense of a raffle.

 

I'm not going to even touch on what special means, since clearly GoNs and upside-down mints aren't special enough.

 

Fair means RNG hurts almost everyone equally painfully. We all have a one in 500,000 (I am going by my scroll number here and I joined in 2010, so there are MANY more scrolls now) chance with each draw. And 499,999 will be disappointed every time a prize is won.

 

The first of those contests was horrible. I would rather keep the raffle than that again. Seriously. The others were basically random, just that a lot of casual players woduln't  have played the games needed to enter.

[Aalbiel]

@olympe Because everyone else seems to not get that they are perfectly fair and accessible, so I'm trying to work with them on this. And they complain about mainly two things:

 

- Raffles not rewarding active players (fixed by my proposal 1)

- People getting multiple prizes (which i tried to address with my proposal 2, but apparently not well)

 

 

Also..... LOL, seriously. Say Prizes are introduced to the Market. Say it takes 6 months to get the shards (a VERY conservative estimate, anything less would be absolutely ridiculous). You going to build a lineage with that? Make a nice checker, oh yeah you're at 3G, with your own 4 CBs, amazing! It only took you 2 whole years! (And that's being very conservative). Please. At least people who say you should have CBs for the sake of having CBs (like Fuzz I believe) are a little more credible than you.

 

@Shadowdrake "If a CB prize is considered the final challenge of DC"

It's not. It's not, I don't need a CB prize, and my scroll will be complete without one when I finish my own personal goals. If I get a CB Prize, I will rejoice and gift/raffle some offspring, and use some of it for trading. Can we please stop imposing this idea that CB Prizes are the ultimate thing to get.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Aalbiel

[olympe]

As long as you have at least one CB prize, you aren't mostly locked out of the market for 2nd gen Prizes. Because most of them go for Prize swaps, which you suddenly can produce. Just like you can create holiday checkers without having a single CB holiday of that kind because these eggs aren't nearly as valuable as 2nd gen Prize eggs.. (I managed red x val checker to 6th gen, starting with a lucky 2nd gen catch before getting my own CBs. Of course, it also helps that there are multi-clutches that flood the AP for roughly 1.5 weeks each year.) I guess you didn't see the bigger picture here? And, yes, I'd work with that even if it took me two years to get a single CB Prize. That's still better than what we have now.

 

And, unfortunately, CB Prizes are the ultimate thing to get right now because they are so incredibly valuable you can trade their offspring for pretty much anything - be it CB golds, neglected, other 2nd gen Prizes or 2nd gen SA offspring. CB Prizes are the inofficial money printing presses of Valkemare because of their darn exclusivity.

Edited August 19, 2018 by olympe

[49ER]

I am ok with shards prize costing so much it takes a couple years or so, IF we can choose the prize.  I am not ok with it being that expensive and not having any say on which one we get--that would still be the case in the RNG thing

[Aalbiel]

Honestly olympe, having half your side going "the only way to get 2Gs to build lineages is to have a CB to breed offspring from, so you can trade them for other 2Gs, because there is literally no other way to get 2Gs" and the other side going "this is so not about breeding, there are many way to get 2Gs for things as simple as common hatchies, or people gifting/raffling their 2Gs for free, this is ONLY about CBs" is not helping your case what with the total lack of consistency.

 

Now, for a couple quotes:

On 5/22/2018 at 9:08 AM, TJ09 said:

The limitation to only eggs available in the cave, however, is currently a "hard" restriction that I don't plan on changing in the near future.

Maybe I should just stop worrying, it ain't good for my blood pressure!

 

On 5/28/2018 at 9:59 AM, TJ09 said:

 

1. Sure, rewarding actual effort (rather than just trying) is an important part of game design, but not every single mechanic needs to be structured in a way that the reward scales with effort. We already have the cave which does that quite a bit—spending more time in the cave is already directly proportional to chance of seeing (and therefore chance of catching) desirable eggs. 

 

And finally, for all those out there who are clamoring that these cb prizes just need  to be available in market....

 

On 5/22/2018 at 6:12 AM, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Nothing NEEDS adjustment. You WANT an adjustment. That isn't the same thing. Sorry - but it isn't.

 

 

[Shadowdrake]

@Aalbiel Thanks for confirming that these arguments are pointless, though I expect we'll revisit this subject again in the next six months. Perhaps TJ's mind will change again sometime in the next 5 to 10 years.

[olympe]

I didn't say that being able to produce 2nd gens is the only way to get other 2nd gens. But it is the only reliable way to get more than the very occasional 2nd gen. (And, yes, I own 3 2nd gens. If anyone is interested in offspring, feel free to PM me. They're in a highlighted group in case you want to check them out beforehand.) And what some of us actually hope for is an equally reliable way to eventually get our hands on a CB prize. Neither raffles nor random gifts nor incredible trades are reliable, though.

 

Also, define "in the cave". Cave = biomes? Cave = available as CB?

Because the point TJ made about "eggs available in the cave" was made in context of CB breed-only variants like alts, female hollies, colored stripes and the like.

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

39 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

Also..... LOL, seriously. Say Prizes are introduced to the Market. Say it takes 6 months to get the shards (a VERY conservative estimate, anything less would be absolutely ridiculous). You going to build a lineage with that? Make a nice checker, oh yeah you're at 3G, with your own 4 CBs, amazing! It only took you 2 whole years! (And that's being very conservative). Please. At least people who say you should have CBs for the sake of having CBs (like Fuzz I believe) are a little more credible than you.

 

6 months. Nope. It's 9 to get a gold now. I'd say set it at 18 months to two years. But please, set it !