Remove Sickness (or somehow change it drastically)

[osmarks]

Just now, Fuzzbucket said:

 

It has indeed - it was in the transparency thread, for one. I agree with you that a change like that wouldn't  hurt - but NOT removal.

 

 

It is fairly well documented that railing against viewbombing here very often leads to an attack.... Just saying.

What, so we should just be happy with the state of affairs where anyone can (probably) kill your stuff easily if you do anything?

[Fuzzbucket]

TJ has said he is working on viewbombing. But you just asked if it were a coincidence that you had a sick hatchie. I was simply suggesting that - possibly not. I thought you wanted to know.

[osmarks]

13 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

TJ has said he is working on viewbombing. But you just asked if it were a coincidence that you had a sick hatchie. I was simply suggesting that - possibly not. I thought you wanted to know.

Even disregarding there being no clear description on how it would actually work, TJ09 seemingly hasn't said more for five months and the issue is still ongoing.

[Fuzzbucket]

He would be mad to post how it would work. Information to be used by The Enemy !

 

For all we know he is tweaking as we type.

[osmarks]

Just now, Fuzzbucket said:

He would be mad to post how it would work. Information to be used by The Enemy !

 

For all we know he is tweaking as we type.

Ah, because security through obscurity always works!

 

That's unlikely given the lack of updates for months.

[Fuzzbucket]

You have no way to know that, and I think it is a little rude to suggest it.

 

But announcing how you plan to prevent viewbombing immediately gives script-writers a bit more ammo to devise NEW scripts. YES, security through obscurity is way better than security through public announcements.

[osmarks]

17 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

You have no way to know that, and I think it is a little rude to suggest it.

 

But announcing how you plan to prevent viewbombing immediately gives script-writers a bit more ammo to devise NEW scripts. YES, security through obscurity is way better than security through public announcements.

If your system is truly secure it won't need you to hide the details of how it works, which can probably be reverse-engineered anyway.

[Alrexwolf]

I'm going to be frank: sickness is a stupid mechanic and it's implemented in the worst possible way I could imagine for a game like this.

 

The only way an egg can truly get sick, in my experience, is if you put a newly laid/picked up egg in a bunch of hatcheries (inexperience, fixed after the first time and you never do it again), or if someone else is using it against you. 

 

Personally, even putting freshly picked up eggs/freshly laid eggs in AoND has NEVER resulted in sickness for me; the ONLY time I have ever had a sick hatchling or egg, ever, was when someone was doing it to me on purpose OR I added my dragons to multiple hatcheries at once on accident.

 

There's nothing "mechanic," about sickness. All it is is a revenge tool and a small slap on the wrist for new players who, unless they come to the forums and ask, will never know why it happened specifically. I see it as a deterrent for new players and old players alike and think TJ thinks it's more useful/interesting than it actually is and personally have no idea why he's so attached to an easily abused, discouraging system that chases away unknowing new players and kills years of work of old players.

[Aalbiel]

9 minutes ago, osmarks said:

If your system is truly secure it won't need you to hide the details of how it works, which can probably be reverse-engineered anyway.

 

........... You think TJ, who is working alone on this site, for no money, in his spare time, is going to design a perfect 100% secure system with no flaws, so 100% secure that even if he gives the details of how it works nobody can work around it? 

[Fuzzbucket]

1 minute ago, Alrexwolf said:

 kills years of work of old players.

 

YEARS of work ? Where does that come from ?

[Alrexwolf]

Just now, Fuzzbucket said:

 

YEARS of work ? Where does that come from ?

Viewbombing happens frequently around holiday times - to new eggs and old eggs alike. For some players, an egg will be the only they can get out of a pair for the entire year. And it takes 5 minutes for it to be dead. Imaging losing a 4G (who you bred ALL the previous ancestors of!) holidayxholiday or holidayxprize checker and bam.

 

Dead. Sorry. Try again next year.

 

We shouldn't have to live in fear of sharing our scrolls or just generally trying to ENJOY this game. All sickness does is punish people who want to share this game with others and make it so we all have to act like little rodents - come out, grab something, retreat into the darkness. Never let yourself be seen, it's dangerous. And even if you want to be social and share your cool projects/lineages/dragons/codes with other people, you all act like it's your OWN fault for not stealing away into the darkness the second it came into your possession. You punish the players for the bad deeds of others and then be like, "well we have ward/you should have hidden them"

i shouldnt have to live in fear for my stupid pixel egg's existence. 

[osmarks]

5 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

I'm going to be frank: sickness is a stupid mechanic and it's implemented in the worst possible way I could imagine for a game like this.

 

The only way an egg can truly get sick, in my experience, is if you put a newly laid/picked up egg in a bunch of hatcheries (inexperience, fixed after the first time and you never do it again), or if someone else is using it against you. 

 

Personally, even putting freshly picked up eggs/freshly laid eggs in AoND has NEVER resulted in sickness for me; the ONLY time I have ever had a sick hatchling or egg, ever, was when someone was doing it to me on purpose OR I added my dragons to multiple hatcheries at once on accident.

 

There's nothing "mechanic," about sickness. All it is is a revenge tool and a small slap on the wrist for new players who, unless they come to the forums and ask, will never know why it happened specifically. I see it as a deterrent for new players and old players alike and think TJ thinks it's more useful/interesting than it actually is and personally have no idea why he's so attached to an easily abused, discouraging system that chases away unknowing new players and kills years of work of old players.

This is exactly what I mean.

New players will, though, at least get the slightly helpful help text which you get linked to by the sickness notification.

[osmarks]

9 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

 

........... You think TJ, who is working alone on this site, for no money, in his spare time, is going to design a perfect 100% secure system with no flaws, so 100% secure that even if he gives the details of how it works nobody can work around it? 

It could be something as simple as ignoring views from IPs which send more than 100 an hour or something.

I'm a bit fuzzy on exactly how many views viewbombing involves, but something like that would be simple, possibly work, and be quite safe to state explicitly.

 

Oh, except it'll be bad for NDers, not sure how to fix that.

Edited July 25, 2018 by osmarks

[Aalbiel]

Most viewbombing cases (aside from massive and much more serious events such as the EaTW fiasco which you weren't around for) are just people adding people's dragons to all possible hatcheries without their knowledge. In this case, ignoring views from specific IPs would do exactly nothing, as the views are given "legitimately" (apart from the fact that the owner of the scroll didn't agree to have their dragons put into hatcheries).

 

(P.S. maybe go take a look at what was debated re: viewbombing in january/february, bc most of what is being discussed now is completely redundant.)

Edited July 25, 2018 by Aalbiel

[osmarks]

3 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

Most viewbombing cases (aside from massive and much more serious events such as the EaTW fiasco which you weren't around for) are just people adding people's dragons to all possible hatcheries without their knowledge. In this case, ignoring views from specific IPs would do exactly nothing, as the views are given "legitimately" (apart from the fact that the owner of the scroll didn't agree to have their dragons put into hatcheries).

 

(P.S. maybe go take a look at what was debated re: viewbombing in january/february, bc most of what is being discussed now is completely redundant.)

I already suggested hatcheries requiring logins. I don't see how else it could be done.

[Aalbiel]

I think everyone is in agreement with that one, except they're external websites run independently so it's pretty much moot unless the people who own those sites just decide to do that. Considering some of these sites are now running without their original scripter......

[Fuzzbucket]

45 minutes ago, osmarks said:

This is exactly what I mean.

New players will, though, at least get the slightly helpful help text which you get linked to by the sickness notification.

 

All players get that.

 

41 minutes ago, osmarks said:

It could be something as simple as ignoring views from IPs which send more than 100 an hour or something.

I'm a bit fuzzy on exactly how many views viewbombing involves, but something like that would be simple, possibly work, and be quite safe to state explicitly.

 

No earthly reason to state anything. Why do players need to know ?

Edited July 25, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Fuzzbucket]

29 minutes ago, osmarks said:

I already suggested hatcheries requiring logins. I don't see how else it could be done.

 

There are MANY other ways to viewbomb. As the people who brought down EATW can tell you. They used a huge bot network.

[osmarks]

Just now, Fuzzbucket said:

 

All players get that.

 

 

No earthly reason to starter anything. Why do players need to know ?

I know all players get that. The experienced ones will know about sickness already, though.

 

It's not exactly necessary, but some people like transparency and non-cryptic error messages and whatnot.

[osmarks]

4 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

There are MANY other ways to viewbomb. As the people who brought down EATW can tell you. They used a huge bot network.

Stuff like that would be entirely solved by removing sickness and partly by a load of scattershot approaches.

 

Also, I meant I couldn't see another way to fix it.

Edited July 25, 2018 by osmarks

[Fuzzbucket]

24 minutes ago, osmarks said:

It's not exactly necessary, but some people like transparency and non-cryptic error messages and whatnot.

 

I certainly hope my bank never chooses to offer transparency in the ways it makes sure my money is safe.... There are times when transparency is a very bad idea.

[osmarks]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

I certainly hope my bank never chooses to offer transparency in the ways it makes sure my money is safe.... There are times when transparency is a very bad idea.

I would feel much better knowing how it was secured, though obviously not knowing the passwords and stuff.

With well-designed security, you don't need people to not know how it works.

[Fuzzbucket]

Oh yes you do. I know programmers who can get around every last thing they have heard even small details of.

 

Look at a few of the stories on Sophos:

https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/07/25/scammers-pwn-verified-fox-twitter-account-to-scam-cryptocurrency/?utm_source=Naked+Security+-+Sophos+List&utm_campaign=180a915414-Naked+Security+daily+news+email&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_31623bb782-180a915414-418508249

 

https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/07/25/russian-hackers-are-ready-to-disrupt-us-energy-utilities-says-dhs/?utm_source=Naked+Security+-+Sophos+List&utm_campaign=180a915414-Naked+Security+daily+news+email&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_31623bb782-180a915414-418508249

 

These things are easy for those who pick up even a hint.

 

If you can devise such a good security system, I'm sure the DHS and others would like to hear for you.

[osmarks]

31 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Oh yes you do. I know programmers who can get around every last thing they have heard even small details of.

 

Look at a few of the stories on Sophos:

https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/07/25/scammers-pwn-verified-fox-twitter-account-to-scam-cryptocurrency/?utm_source=Naked+Security+-+Sophos+List&utm_campaign=180a915414-Naked+Security+daily+news+email&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_31623bb782-180a915414-418508249

 

https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/07/25/russian-hackers-are-ready-to-disrupt-us-energy-utilities-says-dhs/?utm_source=Naked+Security+-+Sophos+List&utm_campaign=180a915414-Naked+Security+daily+news+email&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_31623bb782-180a915414-418508249

 

These things are easy for those who pick up even a hint.

 

If you can devise such a good security system, I'm sure the DHS and others would like to hear for you.

That first one is probably just getting the password somehow, as if they had somehow managed to hack Twitter they'd mess with more important accounts.

 

And the second one says they started with phishing, which is a people problem and not caused by them "picking up a hint".

[Aalbiel]

1 hour ago, osmarks said:

I would feel much better knowing how it was secured, though obviously not knowing the passwords and stuff.

With well-designed security, you don't need people to not know how it works.

 

There is literally no such thing as perfect security, and if you think there is you watch too many movies. And revealing the details of any type of security will always give clues to how to take it down/work around it.