Remove Sickness (or somehow change it drastically)

[osmarks]

I think that the mechanic of sickness, as it currently exists (summary: get views/clicks too fast and your dragon will get sick and maybe die), has major problems which detract from the fun of the game.

 

The average player is likely to discover sickness after, obviously, one of their growing dragons gets sick. There's a convenient help page describing what it is and what to do, and it's normally pretty simple to solve; remove your egg from a few hatcheries and fog it for a bit. This is likely to work for a new player, as they probably won't be the target of deliberate attacks, and any eggs they have which die won't usually be very high-value anyway.

Experienced players, however, probably won't have sickness occur by accident, as it's pretty easy to avoid by just delaying putting your eggs in hatcheries. However, they are often targets of viewbombing (people deliberately giving eggs too many views to kill them), which is harder to deal with - you don't know where the dragons are getting views from and can't fog them if they're in a trade. There's a Ward BSA (given to White dragons, and it prevents them from dying of sickness for six hours; can you use it on dragons in trades?), but it only lasts for six hours and has a two-week cooldown. This means that if you're being targeted with a sustained viewbombing attack, you either need an army of Whites or have to fog your eggs/hatchings, which is not sustainable, as they need views to hatch. Even worse, they might not be able to catch it in time, meaning that they'll lose a high-value egg (these are typical viewbombing targets).

 

My proposed solution is simple: removing sickness. It's drastic, and arguably takes away some of the difficulty in raising eggs (not that "put them in hatcheries later" is very hard...) but would make viewbombing completely impossible.

 

I thought of some other solutions:

• enforcing DragCave API logins on hatcheries - would help, but you can't possibly police all routes through which a thing can be viewed lots.
• buffing Ward a lot - would probably work well for experienced players and would end up trivializing sickness anyway if it were effective against viewbombers.
• removing sickness at some trophy level - would be unfair to newer players.

but, despite the merits of these suggestions and probably other ones, think that this would be a more effective solution.

If you have any other ideas, or personal opinions on these changes, please say so below.

 

Here are some other ones come up with in the thread:

• Making sickness either have the timer run backward, or just inhibit hatching.
• Making sickness not kill an egg if detected within 24 hours, or making it not kill eggs unless they are sick for 24 hours.
• Making sickness only possible for the first 24 hours of the egg's life.
• Making sickness autofog the egg.

Edited December 9, 2018 by osmarks

[Fuzzbucket]

Sickness is the mechanic to make sure we don't just dump eggs in hatcheries and do nothing else. It means we have to pay attention to our scrolls.

 

It's nice that some hatcheries require a login, but even if they all did, there are plenty of other ways to viewbomb, so it cannot be seen as the solution. TJ has said he is working on a way to prevent viewbombing; give him time. He has also said that ward will NOT be increased. (But yes, it does hold up  as long as you use it before putting the egg in a teleport.)

 

Solution - wait for TJ to work in the way to prevent viewbombing - and monitor your own scroll - which is the reason sickness exists - to make you do exactly that. It really isn't that hard. Hide your scroll when you are AFK, too. (and yes, I have been bombed and lost eggs - naively thinking - as an experienced player yet - that no-one would go for commons...!)

[osmarks]

5 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Sickness is the mechanic to make sure we don't just dump eggs in hatcheries and do nothing else. It means we have to pay attention to our scrolls.

 

It's nice that some hatcheries require a login, but even if they all did, there are plenty of other ways to viewbomb, so it cannot be seen as the solution. TJ has said he is working on a way to prevent viewbombing; give him time. He has also said that ward will NOT be increased. (But yes, it does hold up  as long as you use it before putting the egg in a teleport.)

 

Solution - wait for TJ to work in the way to prevent viewbombing - and monitor your own scroll - which is the reason sickness exists - to make you do exactly that. It really isn't that hard. Hide your scroll when you are AFK, too. (and yes, I have been bombed and lost eggs - naively thinking - as an experienced player yet - that no-one would go for commons...!)

I've never experienced viewbombing myself, and hiding my scroll whenever I'm away is a bit of an ugly workaround, though I might do it if I do end up viewbombed at all. Also, I fail to see how some magic viewbombing-preventing thing could work while still keeping sickness, the existence of hatcheries, etc.

Anyway, under intense viewbombing, eggs can die when you're asleep and/or away, but when you know how to avoid it, sickness basically never occurs by accident.

Edited July 24, 2018 by osmarks

[Kaini]

*shrugs* Some element of risk is what makes the game fun to play. It'd be boring if we could just stick our eggs in hatcheries and disappear for a week.

 

Viewbombing is a problem, but I don't think getting rid of sickness is the solution. With a close enough watch on your scroll and just preemptively fogging during releases, viewbombing is easily avoided.

[osmarks]

2 minutes ago, Kaini said:

*shrugs* Some element of risk is what makes the game fun to play. It'd be boring if we could just stick our eggs in hatcheries and disappear for a week.

 

Viewbombing is a problem, but I don't think getting rid of sickness is the solution. With a close enough watch on your scroll and just preemptively fogging during releases, viewbombing is easily avoided.

It's not much risk. I've never gotten a sick egg since my new strategy of only hatcherying eggs at 5d. Presumably, most players do similar stuff, and lose eggs almost entirely to viewbombs.

Viewbombing is a problem, and I think that "just bear it and fog stuff sometimes" is a bad strategy for dealing with it. Currently, the balance of power is such that it's much easier to attack an egg than defend it.

Edited July 24, 2018 by osmarks

[Fuzzbucket]

Hiding your scroll when AFK works pretty well, and since your strategy is working for you, we can all see how easy it is to avoid anyway. So where is your problem with sickness ?

5 minutes ago, Kaini said:

*shrugs* Some element of risk is what makes the game fun to play. It'd be boring if we could just stick our eggs in hatcheries and disappear for a week.

 

 

Exactly.

[osmarks]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Hiding your scroll when AFK works pretty well, and since your strategy is working for you, we can all see how easy it is to avoid anyway. So where is your problem with sickness ?

 

Exactly.

My (incredibly simple) strategy (wait a bit before putting stuff in hatcheries) - also used by basically everyone - trivializes accidental sickness.

Most sickness which does occur is down to viewbombing. Given that it doesn't really add much to have accidental sickness in anyway, and nobody likes viewbombing (except viewbombers), I'd argue that removing sickness entirely is much better than just learning to bear the extra hassle.

[Shadowdrake]

There is no "element of risk" involved that makes this any fun. It's literally just tedious to take several minutes out of your day to avoid a person destroying your scroll in 30 seconds for kicks and giggles. For one thing complete strangers can screw up a week's schedule at minimum if they catch your fresh bred eggs at the right time, even longer if it's, say, a rare egg from a common pairing that took awhile to breed. For another, many players already just fog, wait and come back every 2 days instead, coincidentally when eggs become hatchable and have no risk involved. Some people do not have time to check on said eggs every 4 hours, and as of yet we have no "hide growing things" or "hide-all" that would make this more convenient or let us show off our accomplishments while hiding our few vulnerables, so if it's so difficult to prevent endless anonymous harassment that can completely negate the point of the game anyway maybe a complete overhaul of the system would serve us better.

[Fuzzbucket]

I agree that we need the facility to hide growing things in the same way as we can hide adults. But not that we need to get rid of sickness.

[osmarks]

3 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I agree that we need the facility to hide growing things in the same way as we can hide adults. But not that we need to get rid of sickness.

How do you suggest fixing the viewbombing issue then?

[Fuzzbucket]

TJ is the ONLY person who can do anything about it site-wide - and he said some time ago that he has a solution he is testing and will implement when he has it fine-tuned.

 

We ALL have the ability to do something about it by watching our own scrolls.

[osmarks]

Just now, Fuzzbucket said:

TJ is the ONLY person who can do anything about it site-wide - and he said some time ago that he has a solution he is testing and will implement when he has it fine-tuned.

 

We ALL have the ability to do something about it by watching our own scrolls.

The scrolls thing is at best a workaround.

I fail to see how you can magically prevent viewbombing without removing sickness or modifying it to work differently.

[Fuzzbucket]

TJ's the one who knows what he's doing. If he says there is a way, he knows how it could work.

[osmarks]

Just now, Fuzzbucket said:

TJ's the one who knows what he's doing. If he says there is a way, he knows how it could work.

Can you point me to when this magic viewbombing fix was mentioned?

[Fuzzbucket]

 

He also said sickness will stay. so - look for something else to worry about.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[osmarks]

3 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

It's been 6 months - before I even joined DC - and nothing's happened, unless there's something else on the forums.

Also, I think "fixing" viewbombing by banning things sending lots of views might end up banning legitimate hatcheries, and possibly people trying to get NDs lots of views.

Edited July 24, 2018 by osmarks

[Sextonator]

Imo, temporarily suspending sickness until the viewbombing patch is ready wouldn't hurt.

[HeatherMarie]

Removing sickness completely will never happen, TJ has shot that down soooo many times over the years. I definitely agree that *something* should be done to combat the ridiculous viewbombing that us players literally have no control over, though. 

 

@Fuzzbucket That post from TJ was from February. Has he said anything about it since? I haven't seen anything. I also haven't seen any changes in viewbombing issues that would mean something has actually been put into place. Also, as I've posted about multiple times before, TJ's post is great *after the fact*. 'Detecting' and 'banning' viewbombing only helps it not happen again from that specific source, it doesn't do anything at all to stop those vulnerable dragons from dying in the first place. I very very strongly think we need ways to protect against viewbombing in general, not just stopping it after it happens.

[osmarks]

One of the main issues with sickness, I think, is that it makes attacking dragons far easier than defending them - sticking them in a few hatcheries is much easier than fogging them, and checking every hatchery it might be in, and every single other possible source of views, and warding it so it doesn't die, and hoping you actually respond in time (I've heard on the unofficial discord of some "EATW" incident in which eggs died in seconds).

 

If sickness isn't going to be removed, either it needs drastic alterations to make it possible to defend against deliberately incited sickness, or TJ09 needs to make that magic viewbombing fix mentioned before.

[Fuzzbucket]

32 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

Removing sickness completely will never happen, TJ has shot that down soooo many times over the years. I definitely agree that *something* should be done to combat the ridiculous viewbombing that us players literally have no control over, though. 

 

@Fuzzbucket That post from TJ was from February. Has he said anything about it since? I haven't seen anything. I also haven't seen any changes in viewbombing issues that would mean something has actually been put into place. Also, as I've posted about multiple times before, TJ's post is great *after the fact*. 'Detecting' and 'banning' viewbombing only helps it not happen again from that specific source, it doesn't do anything at all to stop those vulnerable dragons from dying in the first place. I very very strongly think we need ways to protect against viewbombing in general, not just stopping it after it happens.

 

I know.I hope he posts again soon. Something MAY have happened though - I have blitzed a few eggs with an autocycler and they've not got sick - they always used to...

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Hasn't removing / altering sickness been discussed extensively before? Is the old topic gone?

 

Anyway--I would like to see sickness changed, but not removed. DC is already a minimum effort game; take away the (generally minor) risk of sickness, and it becomes even more brain dead. While dealing with sickness is never "fun," exactly, some of the times I've felt most invested in the game / my critters has been when holding my breath to see if a case of sickness would resolve itself, or smiling as people warn others of sickness things going on around new releases / holidays.

 

So rather than seeing it removed, I'd like an alteration where sickness cuts off at a certain level. Anything that gets sick enough to expire within a reasonable amount of time (6 hours, 12 hours...?) stops getting views until either it recovers or dies. This gives people a good reason to check in on their eggs while preventing some of the ridiculously extreme viewbombing cases we've seen, such as the one that led to EATW's death and was killing things within half an hour. Something like this would keep the risk around, and encourage people to be invested, but would also prevent extreme cases to the point where death by viewbombing would be far rarer than it is now.

[Lucere]

Honestly the only times where I have to worry about viewbombing and sickness are for eggs/hatchlings that I have up for trade. For other things, I can fog/hide my scroll, but I've had eggs in trades get sick even after I've hidden my scroll because viewbombers posted the code of the egg(s) itself in a couple of hatcheries. 

 

Even with non-trade eggs, it gets a bit annoying to have to unfog things to check lineages, use BSAs (like precog, influence, incubate, etc.). But there's already another discussion thread for suggesting that we be able to do more with fogged eggs/hatchlings, so I'll leave it at that.

 

Since removing sickness looks unlikely, maybe instead the Ward BSA can be buffed (either by raising how long ward is effective, making it stackable, etc.), and/or make it so we can ward our eggs already in teleport. 

 

But I'll take anything that lessens the impact that viewbombers can have on my scroll. 

[HeatherMarie]

While I'd personally love for Ward to be more useful (I'd love it to actually last a normal sleep-cycle!), TJ has spoken against extending the Ward time. If he changes his mind that would be awesome though.

 

Personally I'd just like for sickness to not mean possible-death right away. The thing about Ward and fogging and such, you have to actually *know* that your egg is sick and be online to do those actions. Dedicated viewbombers can literally kill dragons in less then a half hour (it happened soooo fast with the EATW attack!), and I don't think that's fair at all. I would really really like if sickness couldn't kill a dragon until it's been sick for a certain amount of time... Like, say someone viewbombs your egg and it gets sick, but it can't actually die until it's been sick for 5 hours (just picking a random number). That gives you a reasonable opportunity to see that it's sick and fog/Ward it. If it's *too* sick by that time it can still die, but at least it's giving you the opportunity to *try* to save it, instead of dying before you even know it's sick.

[osmarks]

8 hours ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Hasn't removing / altering sickness been discussed extensively before? Is the old topic gone?

 

Anyway--I would like to see sickness changed, but not removed. DC is already a minimum effort game; take away the (generally minor) risk of sickness, and it becomes even more brain dead. While dealing with sickness is never "fun," exactly, some of the times I've felt most invested in the game / my critters has been when holding my breath to see if a case of sickness would resolve itself, or smiling as people warn others of sickness things going on around new releases / holidays.

 

So rather than seeing it removed, I'd like an alteration where sickness cuts off at a certain level. Anything that gets sick enough to expire within a reasonable amount of time (6 hours, 12 hours...?) stops getting views until either it recovers or dies. This gives people a good reason to check in on their eggs while preventing some of the ridiculously extreme viewbombing cases we've seen, such as the one that led to EATW's death and was killing things within half an hour. Something like this would keep the risk around, and encourage people to be invested, but would also prevent extreme cases to the point where death by viewbombing would be far rarer than it is now.

As I've already said, it's not very difficult to stop your eggs accidentally getting sick. Just put them in hatcheries at 6d or 5d or something. It's practically zero effort.

Viewbombing is much harder to prevent and more serious and near-impossible to stop.

 

EDIT: Now, one of my hatchlings has become sick. Whether it's accidental or not I don't know (the timing seems slightly suspicious, and it does have many more views than my others).  Given that I just noticed and fogged it now, I have no clue whether it'll be OK or not, and I can't ward it for the 3 hours until it grows, meaning that its fate is entirely in the hands of, probably, some random process. Since it's a CB Aeon, if it were to die, I'd have to put all my other plans on hold, and grab another from the cave, wait another six days, and hope this one survives. Not fun.

Edited July 25, 2018 by osmarks

[Fuzzbucket]

9 hours ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Hasn't removing / altering sickness been discussed extensively before? Is the old topic gone?

 

Anyway--I would like to see sickness changed, but not removed. DC is already a minimum effort game; take away the (generally minor) risk of sickness, and it becomes even more brain dead. While dealing with sickness is never "fun," exactly, some of the times I've felt most invested in the game / my critters has been when holding my breath to see if a case of sickness would resolve itself, or smiling as people warn others of sickness things going on around new releases / holidays.

 

So rather than seeing it removed, I'd like an alteration where sickness cuts off at a certain level. Anything that gets sick enough to expire within a reasonable amount of time (6 hours, 12 hours...?) stops getting views until either it recovers or dies. This gives people a good reason to check in on their eggs while preventing some of the ridiculously extreme viewbombing cases we've seen, such as the one that led to EATW's death and was killing things within half an hour. Something like this would keep the risk around, and encourage people to be invested, but would also prevent extreme cases to the point where death by viewbombing would be far rarer than it is now.

 

It has indeed - it was in the transparency thread, for one. I agree with you that a change like that wouldn't  hurt - but NOT removal.

 

22 minutes ago, osmarks said:

EDIT: Now, one of my hatchlings has become sick. Whether it's accidental or not I don't know (the timing seems slightly suspicious, and it does have many more views than my others).  Given that I just noticed and fogged it now, I have no clue whether it'll be OK or not, and I can't ward it for the 3 hours until it grows, meaning that its fate is entirely in the hands of, probably, some random process. Since it's a CB Aeon, if it were to die, I'd have to put all my other plans on hold, and grab another from the cave, wait another six days, and hope this one survives. Not fun.

 

It is fairly well documented that railing against viewbombing here very often leads to an attack.... Just saying.