2018-07-01 - July Dragon Release

[Aalbiel]

5 minutes ago, Sirithiliel said:

 

i think people are more annoyed at the double standard going on, where in-cave sprites receive less quality control and are released compared to requests that get high critique for small details that in-cave artists are allowed to get away with

 

+1000

 

 

[Alrexwolf]

I dunno, given Mys' post it seems like it's highly likely JOTB and Mys submitted them awhile ago - which again makes me more frustrated at TJ than the spriters (and I wasn't frustrated with them to begin with!) 

 

Things that go through DR don't deserve to be released - however you can also say that private concepts don't deserve to be released either. TJ should pick the highest quality sprites that are available for release - private or DR, it doesn't matter. He should go back and find private releases that aren't quite up to scratch and let the artists attempt to fix them. I am 99% sure these sprites would have been edited had it been known they were going for release.

 

I personally think a sprite that's in a "once in a million lifetimes" position is silly. I like seeing dragons how they would naturally be; I highly doubt Pyrovars are out there naturally dangling their back legs in the air with their spines turned at a 45 degree angle. Plenty of dragons have exaggerated poses that make sense. Ridgewings, for example, their males are in the upside down pose but it makes sense for them. It is their natural state to fly and glide. Imperial males stand on their hind legs and have an exaggerated dance movement; because this is what they do. As far as I know, there is nothing the Pyro does that makes the pose natural. The description makes them sound like ambush water/air predators. NOT stalker/pouncers. Like an alligator - you imagine an alligator making that pose, even if it's once in a million lifetimes. They either wait in water and strike forward fast, or dive down from above. Neither of which are portrayed in this pose at all. 

 

That being said I love the extra info on the Truffles; they're such a lovely concept and I adore everything about them, though I wish Mys had had time to update them before the release since it seems like some of the details are old and such. Either way, definitely glad the gusties turned into musties, because these guys are a dream 😍

[KrazyKarp]

8 minutes ago, Sirithiliel said:

i think people are more annoyed at the double standard going on, where in-cave sprites receive less quality control and are released compared to requests that get high critique for small details that in-cave artists are allowed to get away with

Pretty much this; and as someone who looks at descriptions a lot, this also applies to those.

 

I like the Truffles and Pyrovars. There are things about them I'm not a fan of, like the Truffle's description and Pyrovar's sprites. But overall I like them. The biggest problem is that the double standard is painfully obvious with them.

[TCA]

17 minutes ago, Sirithiliel said:

 

i think people are more annoyed at the double standard going on, where in-cave sprites receive less quality control and are released compared to requests that get high critique for small details that in-cave artists are allowed to get away with

 

 It appears, to many of us outside observers, that in-cave artists can release things with poorer quality sprites that non in-cave artists would never be allowed to get away with, like the Pyro's hind legs. That would have been torn apart in dragon requests and the spriter sent back to do it again, but because it is a established in-cave artist that can bypass public critique, it gets released

 

that is what people are talking about. 

 

 

The thing is, though, even stuff in-cave artists do in secret... can go a while without us looking back at it and then suddenly get released? Like, heck, look at my Spinels. While they've aged well, they were a several year old sprite at the time they were released. The Black Truffles, as Mysfytt said, are an old concept that suddenly got released.

 

Basically, my opinion is that this "double standard" comes from a few things:

• The community really wants DR stuff to be released.
• Because new artists are Kind Of A Thing, in order to make ANY amount of DR stuff releaseable, it has to be held to a high standard based off the current high standards, because if a DR concept doesn't really stand out, why would TJ pick it instead of going with a safe, reliable artist he knows isn't going to be a problematic person?
• In the end, the current model is, whatever TJ wants to release gets released, whether it's something experimental an in-caver did the night before or a DR sprite that was in crit hell for 5 years.

So therefore, when TJ releases something he likes but has, or people THINK it has, problems that was made by an in-caver, the community gets really upset, but that comes from a misguided thought that we're somehow "cheating" when... for all you know, maybe it went through a round of nitpicking, like, five years ago. You don't know what crit process it was subjected to or when.

 

I'm pretty sure this is what the deal is. I could be wrong, but that's my take and also why I think the negativity comes from viewing the situation with a sort of sense of... pride and feeling like surviving DR hell necessarily entitles a sprite to release. As long as the sole authority on what gets released when is TJ, you always have to account for the fact that it won't ever really be 'fair' or even make sense, it just kind of is what it is.

Edited July 5, 2018 by TCA

[Alrexwolf]

I don't think the frustration is directed at in-cave artists at all. It's the fact that TJ himself asks that in-cave artists crit hell DR concepts to death but lets their old concepts slide. That is NOTHING on you guys; you're all improving all the time, that's only natural of an artist.

 

HOWEVER, if TJ would LIKE to release an old concept that isn't quite up to snuff, how hard would it be to go to the artist and be like, hey, okay okay I love this concept but can we work on the sprite a little bit? I'm sure many of you would love to be given the chance to update super old work that's siting around in private requests. 

 

It's not your fault; it's TJ's for having a double standard himself, and keeping old work in the choice pool. 

[TCA]

Just now, Alrexwolf said:

I don't think the frustration is directed at in-cave artists at all

 

Well, even if it's not, some people sure do a good job of taking their frustrations out on the artists and sprites that did get picked 

[HeatherMarie]

5 minutes ago, TCA said:

 

Because new artists are Kind Of A Thing, in order to make ANY amount of DR stuff releaseable, it has to be held to a high standard based off the current high standards, because if a DR concept doesn't really stand out, why would TJ pick it instead of going with a safe, reliable artist he knows isn't going to be a problematic person?

 

But that's just it. DR stuff *has* to be held to a high standard in order for it to have any chance at all of being released. But it very much seems like non-DR stuff *isn't* held to that same standard. Of course we have no idea what Black Truffles went through in terms of crit, or when, but when put up against some of the other recent releases (and indeed some of the current DR stuff) it does very much seem like it's not up to those same standards. Same with the Pyrovars, a little. If DR concepts *must* be held to certain high standards, ALL releases should be. There shouldn't be one set of standards for one group and a different set for another group, just because the artists already have something in-cave. 

[Jazeki]

8 minutes ago, TCA said:

 

• Because new artists are Kind Of A Thing, in order to make ANY amount of DR stuff releaseable, it has to be held to a high standard based off the current high standards, because if a DR concept doesn't really stand out, why would TJ pick it instead of going with a safe, reliable artist he knows isn't going to be a problematic person?

What, exactly, does this mean in terms of whether a dragon is ready for release or not? I'm pretty meh right now as far as all this "sprite readiness" is concerned and know enough to keep my mouth shut. But honestly. What even. 

[Alrexwolf]

2 minutes ago, Jazeki said:

What, exactly, does this mean in terms of whether a dragon is ready for release or not? I'm pretty meh right now as far as all this "sprite readiness" is concerned and know enough to keep my mouth shut. But honestly. What even. 

Okay honestly +1000 to that too. 

 

Implying that in-cave artists are going to be better people than non IC artists isn't exactly fair to anyone. 

[Corteo]

I can say completely honestly that I 100% believe that the pyrovars would have passed the public crit stage with flying colors.  I think that the problem most people are having (especially with the limbs) is coming from a lack of familiarity of foreshortening and perspective.  The anatomy really is spot on.

[TCA]

10 minutes ago, Jazeki said:

What, exactly, does this mean in terms of whether a dragon is ready for release or not? I'm pretty meh right now as far as all this "sprite readiness" is concerned and know enough to keep my mouth shut. But honestly. What even. 

 

This is entirely based on personal speculation about specific people's motivations, please note the "in my opinion this is what I think the deal is" in my post. But basically DR's also partly about making sprites and partly about applying to be an artist, in practice, so it's also kind of a "job interview" almost? That's what I think is part of what's going on.

Edited July 5, 2018 by TCA

[purplehaze]

Caution! The view-bombers aren't done yet! I apparently said something that upset someone, or whatever. I just almost lost two eggs. I think they will survive as they were caught early. Everything vulnerable on my scroll is now hidden again. I hate having to play the game this way!!!!

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by purplehaze

[Ruby Eyes]

33 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

The description makes them sound like ambush water/air predators. NOT stalker/pouncers. Like an alligator - you imagine an alligator making that pose, even if it's once in a million lifetimes. They either wait in water and strike forward fast, or dive down from above. Neither of which are portrayed in this pose at all. 

"ambush any unwitting creatures that wander by" doesn't sound to me like they're expecting their prey to be underwater or even swimming on the surface (of a really hot puddle?)

They look nimble enough that they can jump out of the water at the sight of potential prey and turn to whichever direction that prey is. What's actually missing is a trail of water behind them!

 

Oh hey, my scroll is getting extra stats, too! Good thing I forgot to add my things myself

Edited July 5, 2018 by Ruby Eyes

[Tehya Faye]

And that's the last my my scroll goals for these breeds done~  Black Truffles look fairly neat. Probably won't work with them if they're actually rares, but at least I won't have to hunt them. 

[KrazyKarp]

24 minutes ago, TCA said:

The thing is, though, even stuff in-cave artists do in secret... can go a while without us looking back at it and then suddenly get released? Like, heck, look at my Spinels. While they've aged well, they were a several year old sprite at the time they were released. The Black Truffles, as Mysfytt said, are an old concept that suddenly got released.

This seems like a problem TJ needs to fix then. It's not the spriter's fault. TJ needs to notify spriters and conceptors if a dragon is set to be released so that, if they see it necessary, the spriters and conceptors can polish up the sprites, descriptions, encyclopedia information, etc. I know TJ likes the surprise aspect of things, but making sure work is of high quality is more important than surprises. It's obvious now that a double standard has been created simply because the appropriate people aren't notified of when a dragon is set to be released. That's what I've taken from your post, let me know if I've misinterpreted anything.

[Alrexwolf]

1 minute ago, Ruby Eyes said:

"ambush any unwitting creatures that wander by" doesn't sound to me like they're expecting their prey to be underwater or even swimming on the surface (of a really hot puddle?)

They look nimble enough that they can jump out of the water at the sight of potential prey and turn to whichever direction that prey is. What's actually missing is a trail of water behind them!

 

Oh hey, my scroll is getting stats, too!

 

Alligators and crocodiles don't expect their prey to be swimming either? They wait in the water until something takes a drink then CHOMP! and drag it into the water. If they are water ambush predators they would likely utilize tactics like these; not to mention getting out of the water would be a poor choice because the prey would hear them before they were even out, and would have a few seconds to many seconds' advantage depending on the situation. Their description specifically states they "lying in wait beneath the water’s surface to ambush," the only animals I know of that do that are crocodiles and alligators and their relatives - and they certainly would not be leaping out of the water like a ballerina to chase after a gazelle! Stealth is their tactic. I assume in terms of waiting in hot springs they wait for other dragons that like to relax in them, humans that use them for healing, animals swimming or attempting to drink, etc. etc. to ambush, versus drinking animals like crocs or gators. 

 

I actually think that Pyros would've looked great in a diving position. It shows off their aerial skills, and there are many aerial predators that adore the water as well. Something like a falcon or hawk diving would have looked amazing for these guys, especially given their flashy colors and whatnot. 

[Sirithiliel]

23 minutes ago, Corteo said:

I can say completely honestly that I 100% believe that the pyrovars would have passed the public crit stage with flying colors.  I think that the problem most people are having (especially with the limbs) is coming from a lack of familiarity of foreshortening and perspective.  The anatomy really is spot on.

 

my issue with the hind leg is more the shading and toes of the dragon's right hind limb. It doesn't look finished. I think it could use another shade, a darker shade, to better indicate what is going on without having to zoom in to see it. I think the pose would also be better served if the left hind leg was upraised a bit more instead of practically level with the other hind limb so that he looks like he's standing bipedally and falling forwards, as it does to me right now

 

but what do i know. I gave up on spriting because i was tired of how TJ and the Dragon Requests works anyways, and i could better focus my efforts on my actual paid work, so whatever. I just play it to collect pretty dragons now

Edited July 5, 2018 by Sirithiliel

[hazeh]

34 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

I personally think a sprite that's in a "once in a million lifetimes" position is silly. I like seeing dragons how they would naturally be; I highly doubt Pyrovars are out there naturally dangling their back legs in the air with their spines turned at a 45 degree angle. Plenty of dragons have exaggerated poses that make sense. Ridgewings, for example, their males are in the upside down pose but it makes sense for them. It is their natural state to fly and glide. Imperial males stand on their hind legs and have an exaggerated dance movement; because this is what they do. As far as I know, there is nothing the Pyro does that makes the pose natural. The description makes them sound like ambush water/air predators. NOT stalker/pouncers. Like an alligator - you imagine an alligator making that pose, even if it's once in a million lifetimes. They either wait in water and strike forward fast, or dive down from above. Neither of which are portrayed in this pose at all. 

 

 Well, the Pyrovars aren't alligators, and they also have wings, so I assume bursting out of the water to ambush prey is going to look a bit different. Alligators can't make that pose, but a dragon with this anatomy sure can-- it's got the limberness of a cat, which are rather bendy. And personally, I think the "once in a lifetime" pose is awesome. It's a lot more interesting than sitting like a statue, like the Black Truffles. I've seen animals do very odd things when in the heat of a pounce/chase/fight; don't see why this can't be extrapolated in a dynamic pose for a creature that "utilizes a variety of hunting styles." 

[High Lord November]

16 minutes ago, Corteo said:

I can say completely honestly that I 100% believe that the pyrovars would have passed the public crit stage with flying colors.  I think that the problem most people are having (especially with the limbs) is coming from a lack of familiarity of foreshortening and perspective.  The anatomy really is spot on.

I'd disagree. The closest arm is massive and is lacking a wrist (shoulder is also as large as the head?) the dragon has no pelvic bone, the blue on the far arm doesn't make sense, and I still can't figure out what those back legs are doing. Is the far back leg twisted towards us or away? Either looks bizarre. It's also entirely in shadow. I was very excited for the Pyrovars, I love the colour scheme and it's the 'type' of dragon that ends up being my favourite (Fever Wyverns, Tarantula Hawk Drakes - along that line). Still is a great dragon, but the anatomy is off. 

[Ruby Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

the only animals I know of that do that are crocodiles and alligators and their relatives

There are also some fish, spiders and other creatures doing so as well.

Anyway, we are talking about *dragons* here - fantasy creatures. They don't NEED to be relatives to alligators or crocodiles.

[Alrexwolf]

I also wanted to ask; how would getting out of the water quickly with wings even work? I imagine with wings that big it would be like trying to drag a pool cover behind you... 

 

edit: i was in no way saying they need to be gator or croc relatives to exist?? i meant their other real-like relatives like caiman. i was saying that of the reptilians I know who utilize water ambush techniques rising out of the water and running after prey (and scaring it half to death and trying to drag your wings along with you while they're lagging or weighing you down and after that whole fiasco is over the prey is probably a hundred miles away right now getting a taxi cab) would be a poor choice. 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Alrexwolf

[blockEdragon]

1 hour ago, Mysfytt said:

As to who the dragon deems has a 'pure heart and selfless spirit' - your own thoughts and inclinations betray you in your comments - if you think it's selfish for a dragon to hold back what is its own property, you are probably a greedy person at heart and would shoot it if you met one and steal all you can lay your hands on because you deserve it.

 

The issue was never them wanting to keep what is theirs, I even mentioned that in my post that being harassed for some stupid oil that's pretty much useless that no one needs is a terrible life so I understand where they're coming from, like the unicorns from GF they where forced into hiding which was wrong and no one was entitled to have their hair.

 

The issue is a nonsense morality test that is using a super cliche trope based on a buzzword. If it had just said that they only give it out to friends and loved ones or something more grounded I wouldn't have thought it was stupid or even mentioned it.

(Also I take HIGH offense to the implication that thinking demanding purity of heart is stupid and meaningless automatically means that i'd probably murder someone out of pure entitlement and greed)

 

And I called them hypocrites because they are supposedly demanding selfless spirits while not being entirely selfless themselves, there's nothing wrong with wanting to keep whats rightfully yours but don't go around acting all high and mighty about it.

 

If they don't actually demand purity of heart like you said and instead just want politeness and maybe something in exchange then why dose the description say that they only give it out to those with pure hearts and selfless spirits? Politeness and fairness is perfectly valid as a demand and would have made for a better concept, the option with some actual meaning behind it should have been used instead.

[deleted]

5 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

 

The issue was never them wanting to keep what is theirs, I even mentioned that in my post that being harassed for some stupid oil that's pretty much useless that no one needs is a terrible life so I understand where they're coming from, like the unicorns from GF they where forced into hiding which was wrong and no one was entitled to have their hair.

 

The issue is a nonsense morality test that is using a super cliche trope based on a buzzword. If it had just said that they only give it out to friends and loved ones or something more grounded I wouldn't have thought it was stupid or even mentioned it.

(Also I take HIGH offense to the implication that thinking demanding purity of heart is stupid and meaningless automatically means that i'd probably murder someone out of pure entitlement and greed)

 

And I called them hypocrites because they are supposedly demanding selfless spirits while not being entirely selfless themselves, there's nothing wrong with wanting to keep whats rightfully yours but don't go around acting all high and mighty about it.

 

If they don't actually demand purity of heart like you said and instead just want politeness and maybe something in exchange then why dose the description say that they only give it out to those with pure hearts and selfless spirits? Politeness and fairness is perfectly valid as a demand and would have made for a better concept, the option with some actual meaning behind it should have been used instead.

 

The description may be a little outdated though, so maybe it, alongside the sprite, will be updated soon.

[Ruby Eyes]

21 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

not to mention getting out of the water would be a poor choice because the prey would hear them before they were even out

I don't know, from what I recall from TV documentaries, areas of volcanic activity and/or geysers seem to be pretty noisy on their own already. Bubbling and whistling and splashing and water hissing out of the ground and sometimes a bit of volcano rumbling ... (not that I've ever been in such an area, as most of the time I do value my life somewhat)

[Ran]

Thank you to the spriters for their work on these two; disappointed but not surprised to see the drama surrounding this release for what seems like the umpteenth time, considering this is a free online game, for free, about fantasy creatures. For free.

 

I don't know if the artists receive commission for their work -- I am assuming they don't -- but they can't be expected to wait hand and knee to make sure everything is Perfect™ for releases. That's not their job.