Is it just me or is the dragcave community a lot less lively

[Kaini]

I noticed activity drop after the forum update, though that was me as well until I got used to it. But really it's always fluctuated a bit.

 

I wouldn't pin it on drama. Sure, there's been a fair share of drama over the years, but that happens in every community, online or not. Your online experience is curated by you, though, so. Maybe I've just avoided the worst of it.

[HeatherMarie]

I have to strongly agree with those who say there will *always* be some sort of drama or conflict, no matter where you go online. You can possibly avoid the worst of it by staying away from the larger more diverse places (like Facebook), but I really can't think of any place on the internet that allows community conversation (forums, chats, 'groups', etc etc) that has no conflict whatsoever. It's just human nature, every so often it's going to happen. I've been a member of a *wonderful* writing community for the past 12 years, and in terms of conflicts it's almost paradise, pretty much the best I could ever hope for with a long-standing online community, but that doesn't mean there has never been any conflict at all. If people leave a community because of 'conflict' or 'drama', it's highly likely that it was because of something that they personally couldn't deal with, and it has little or nothing to do with the overall attitude of the community. Maybe it's frustrating to see people leave like that, or to hear that some people avoid the forum now, but honestly I very much doubt it has anything to do with the community as a whole and more likely has to do with a specific incident that the person couldn't look past. (Speaking from experience.)

 

However, again, none of that has anything to do with the game 'dying'. Whether or not the forums are less active has absolutely no effect on the game itself (again, a large part of DC users aren't even on the forums to begin with). So the idea that the game itself is in trouble, or 'dying', or needs to have more active users, is pretty baseless. 

[Ribombee]

As one of the people who responded to the Facebook discussion, I feel compelled to weigh in. 

 

Firstly, I don't think it's really fair to say that those who chose to go to the Facebook group are judgemental. In fact, this very quote is a perfect example of WHY some people choose to leave the larger group that is the forum. "This is why they use the Facebook group instead of the forum. Judgmental people have never had a place here. Do they really think that they're better than everyone here?" This is literally being judgmental about second-hand information, rather than considering that maybe things got misrepresented moving from the Facebook group to this discussion. 

Secondly, the Facebook group is pretty locked down on what people can do. Being rude at all to other members is not allowed. Starting drama is frowned upon. Up to a point, drama and somewhat curt behaviour is tolerated on the forums. Certainly more so than in the Facebook group. It is a different atmosphere than here, and some find it to be a more welcoming place for that reason. That does not mean they think they are better than everyone here. They had their own experiences, some of which were negative enough to make them move to a smaller, more carefully monitored place. 

That being said, I have had some pretty negative interactions with people jumping in and attacking me both in posts and in private message. Overall, DC forums are better than many other online communities I have been in, but that does not mean this community does not suffer from its own problems. Because it is larger, yes, people get overlooked, frequently. Bear in mind I was a fairly popular member for a while, before I withdrew, too. So even though I did not experience people being ignored, I did see it happening to others. Years ago, the community was smaller, as the game was newer. As communities grow, it becomes more and more difficult to be inclusive of everyone. Some of the people who left for the Facebook group may have been older members who miss the smaller, closer feel. They may have been members who came in at a particularly volatile time. They may be one of the people who got targeted by viewbombers and/or some harassment in the forums. Just because one person did not experience these things does not mean they have not happened to anyone.

 

I also rather doubt any of the people commenting in the Facebook group thought their comments would be dragged back over to the forum, or they might have better qualified their words to put them in the right frame of reference. 

Now, all of that being said, the reason I am less active is that, yes, I have noticed a big drop in activity in the forums well before summer. It started especially after the forum upgrade, and it got worse after the fiasco with EATW and the subsequent continued viewbombing. Another factor I can think of is that there is now a Discord channel, as well. Many people may be talking there instead of here.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Ribombee

[HeatherMarie]

3 hours ago, Ribombee said:

Secondly, the Facebook group is pretty locked down on what people can do. Being rude at all to other members is not allowed. Starting drama is frowned upon. Up to a point, drama and what curt behaviour is tolerated on the forums. Certainly more so than in the Facebook group. It is a different atmosphere than here, and some find it to be a more welcoming place for that reason. That does not mean they think they are better than everyone here. They had their own experiences, some of which were negative enough to make them move to a smaller, more carefully monitored place. 

 

I have to admit I don't really understand this.... It's specifically in the forum rules (or 'guidelines' as they are now called) to 'respect others'. It specifically says not doing so will result in a warning. So I don't really understand the idea that a FB group has rules against being rude and that's why it's better then the forums? If you (or any of the other people on the FB group) have experienced rudeness or harassment on these forums, that *is* against the rules and should be reported to a mod (and possibly reported to a second mod if you think the first one isn't fair or isn't listening). 

 

There is a huge difference, imo, between simply feeling more comfortable elsewhere, and saying that people are more comfortable elsewhere *because* of things that are actually totally against the rules on this forum. Again I have to think that a lot of people who leave the forum with bad feelings probably do so because of a topic that got out of hand and they didn't see the situation through to the end, or something similar... Any sort of rudeness or harassment should (and from my experience is, if you report it) be dealt with by mods and they will put a stop to it. I have been on this forum for a looooong time and I have *never* seen long-term continuous rudeness or harassment, because people report it and it gets shut down. I honestly don't see how a FB group could be so much better in that regard, except that maybe that group simply doesn't have as many members to begin with so there is less opportunity for drama in general?

Edited June 27, 2018 by HeatherMarie
typos

[Ribombee]

15 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

There is a huge difference, imo, between simply feeling more comfortable elsewhere, and saying that people are more comfortable elsewhere *because* of things that are actually totally against the rules on this forum. Again I have to think that a lot of people who leave the forum with bad feelings probably do so because of a topic that got out of hand and they didn't see the situation through to the end, or something similar... Any sort of rudeness or harassment should (and from my experience is, if you report it) be dealt with by mods and they will put a stop to it. I have been on this forum for a looooong time and I have *never* seen long-term continuous rudeness or harassment, because people report it and it gets shut down. I honestly don't see how a FB group could be so much better in that regard, expect that maybe that group simply doesn't have as many members to being with so there is less opportunity for drama in general?

 

As I said, it is a very different atmosphere. Things get addressed immediately, without the need to report to a moderator, typically. Not everyone is comfortable reporting things to a moderator, for whatever reason. Not everyone remembers this is an option when they are in the heat of the moment. There are  less moderators per active member on the forums. Just because something is in the rules does not mean it is always effectively managed or managed to everyone's satisfaction. What is considered rude in the Facebook group can often be something that is gotten away with, even with reporting, on the DC forums. Long-term? Perhaps not, but if people are experiencing enough short-term problems, it can leave an equally bad taste in one's mouth, so to speak. I have reported harassment, and yes, it was taken care of, BUT simply having been attacked for no good reason (I got an egg from the Departure's Thread that others really wanted, and there was a big to do over it) made me want to avoid the forums for a while, no matter the outcome, especially since some viewbombing of my scroll happened right after it (and was almost certainly linked to it). I have only extremely rarely seen anything but the most friendly conversations on the Facebook group. You just don't see the drama or strong emotions you can see on the DC forums. Sprite changes and suggestions are where I see the most negativity, much of it not being quite enough for a moderator to do anything with, but enough that it does clearly upset people because they become very defensive in their replies. Topics in the Facebook group also tend to stray away from those which are most likely to incite people. Again, you may not understand it, but you admit you are also not part of the Facebook group. So you have no way to compare the two. I do. It is simply different, and certain people thrive better in it than on the forums.

 

I repeat, I think that the DC forums are better than many online communities, but they DO have their problems. People will leave because they can't handle the specific problems that DC forums have. I understand your need to defend the forums, because you have not personally experienced what some of the others have. I am not blaming the moderators or TJ. I think they do a good job, given their constraints. If I hated the forums, I would not be here talking on them. As I mentioned, my personal reason for not being as active is because the forums just seem quite a bit slower to me than they did a few years ago. That, I think, is more due to the viewbombing, Discord, and forum upgrade than anything. However, I can also certainly see the viewpoint of others who HAVE had bad interactions which drove them away.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Ribombee

[CatCreature]

9 hours ago, Ribombee said:

As I mentioned, my personal reason for not being as active is because the forums just seem quite a bit slower to me than they did a few years ago. That, I think, is more due to the viewbombing, Discord, and forum upgrade than anything. However, I can also certainly see the viewpoint of others who HAVE had bad interactions which drove them away.

 

Speaking of Discord; is there more places where members meet outside this forum? We know about Facebook.

If there are several places, it might be no wonder why things seems so quiet over here.

[Fuzzbucket]

I have never been on facebook, nor will I. But I know many people who are; I know of a number of groups where things have been so hostile (in discussion groups about an area of mutual interest) that people have left. Even reporting had no effect. If the dragcave FB isn't like that, that's rather unusual. I'm sure everyone is aware of individuals who have actually been driven to suicide as a result of "drama" on facebook. So no, I refuse to believe that things are addressed better there.

 

But what does seem to be happening is that one person here will set something up - FB, discord, slack - and invite all their friends. Those friends like to be together, so they post to each other there instead of here. I will even admit that 6 of us from here do a lot of our discussion and trading on another forum (where we already knew each other) which is actually about something else - simply because we are all there.

[Ribombee]

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I have never been on facebook, nor will I. But I know many people who are; I know of a number of groups where things have been so hostile (in discussion groups about an area of mutual interest) that people have left. Even reporting had no effect. If the dragcave FB isn't like that, that's rather unusual. I'm sure everyone is aware of individuals who have actually been driven to suicide as a result of "drama" on facebook. So no, I refuse to believe that things are addressed better there.

 

But what does seem to be happening is that one person here will set something up - FB, discord, slack - and invite all their friends. Those friends like to be together, so they post to each other there instead of here. I will even admit that 6 of us from here do a lot of our discussion and trading on another forum (where we already knew each other) which is actually about something else - simply because we are all there.

 

Facebook groups can be managed very differently than Facebook itself. Regular Facebook profiles and Facebook groups are two different creatures. You are comparing apples to oranges. A Facebook group can be as hostile as the rest of Facebook, or it cane be a bastion of peace and friendliness. It all depends on the group owners and moderators. Owners can even set it so that posts can't go through until approved, or they can set specific people to where their posts can't go through until approved (forums can too). This particular group's owners and moderators are on top of things. In no way am I saying that Facebook as a whole is better than DC forums, but neither am I saying that all message boards are as good as DC forums or the DC Facebook group. Message boards, too, can be horrible places. Just look at 4chan (actually don't, it is a terrible place). But that is my point. You are essentially comparing the free-for-all that is ALL of Facebook to a limited community which is DC forums. That would be like comparing 4chan to the DC Facebook group. They simply don't compare. 

[Fuzzbucket]

Fair enough - I totally admit I've never been. But in that case what you are getting with the DC FB group is a group of people with the same kind of attitude, and probably the same partly negative feelings about this place - and as it is a much smaller group than this forum, inevitably less discord.

 

Recently a MASSIVE forum I had been a part of for years closed down. Any number of new ones sprang up to try to fill the void. Interestingly several were set up by, and/or appointed mods who, had criticised the old one heavily for things I didn't mind at all. And the forums set up / moderated by those people have a very different feel to the ones set up by the people who had valued the old one more. The one that has struck me most is one set up by someone who had always objected to the mods taking action against them when they had in my view - and the view of most people I know - been thoroughly out of line.. The atmosphere there is downright unpleasant. Not moddable as such - but not welcoming or somewhere I'd want to be.

 

Basically - any DC meeting place set up by people who don't like it here is going to reflect their view of how here should be if they only had their way, if you see what I mean. And it will attract others who feel the same. And if they don't like it here - they aren't going to stay. But I really don't see that as the same as a reduced level of activity, of liveliness. The ONLY thing that I see that coming from is the software. A lot of people I know here who like it here are posting less just because of the horrible editor and the messaging system. I think it is a reduced level of posting rather than of activity - reading is activity too, and I read as much here as I ever did.

 

The other thing is the level of activity in DR. And I think it was the only smart thing to do, to get it thoroughly cleaned out. There were new dragons suggested practically every day - and most of them can never see the light of day - that's inevitable. Say 10 new ones are suggested every month. There are already hundreds in the completed backlog, and we get perhaps 3 new ones  released in a month for 8 months of the year (none in Jan, Feb, October or December as a rule). That's a max of 24 new ones a year. As against about 120 new suggestions to add to the growing backlog. It just doesn't work and leads to disappointment all round. And the lower level of activity there does show, I agree. But I also don't think it matters. At least we no longer get the new threads most days with "Squee, I can't WAIT to see this in cave" - when 90% of the time it will never happen. They were activity - yes, but...

Edited June 27, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Jazeki]

4 hours ago, CatCreature said:

 

Speaking of Discord; is there more places where members meet outside this forum? We know about Facebook.

If there are several places, it might be no wonder why things seems so quiet over here.

There was a deviantart group and the Tumblr kinda disappeared, but people are active enough on the confessions Tumblr. There's also a thread on Chicken Smoothie and one on Tales of Ostlea. 

[CatCreature]

5 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

But what does seem to be happening is that one person here will set something up - FB, discord, slack - and invite all their friends. Those friends like to be together, so they post to each other there instead of here.

Quote

But in that case what you are getting with the DC FB group is a group of people with the same kind of attitude, and probably the same partly negative feelings about this place - and as it is a much smaller group than this forum, inevitably less discord.

 

This FB group is not about members who dislike this forum. It's about members who like Dragon Cave, period. (And dragons in general.) Even TJ is a member.

 

But there are other, smaller FB groups/pages so you might still be right. Anyone can make a group or page about anything on Facebook.

 

That's how Facebook works. Someone creates a group or a page about something you like and you become a member/follower of that group/page. It can be about everything: cats, knitting, cars, comics, news, jokes, airplanes, celebrities, and much much more. It can be in general or certain kinds. Facebook isn't all bad. It all comes down to the subject, I think. Controversial subjects do cause discussions and drama. But so does it anywhere where you have opinions.

[Fuzzbucket]

Again - OK, fine. I just hope it doesn't end up that an FB group takes over from here. And the WYSIWYG editor and the messaging here are still awful and put people off posting.

 

Including you, I do believe

 

 

[olympe]

Compared to a couple of years ago, the DC forums are much less lively. About four to five years ago, it was usually worthwile to check in here several times a day, and either a new discussion would have sprung up, an active discussion would have moved on (by a page - or several) or we could look at progress in DR.

 

However, a lot of things have accumulated that decrease overall activity, especially in SR, where I spend most of my time here. First, there's the DR section. Completed requests were so abundant that they got cleared out and are required to be reworked until the site artists say the sprites are good enough. This might seem overly restrictive, but it means higher quality of finished sprites, so I won't complain. However, the result is... less activity in DR. Additionally, DR has been closed for new requests. Then there was the BSA section that, in the beginning, got a lot of activity but pretty much zero results. Which led to very little activity and lots of frustration for many users - especially the fact that suggestions that somehow touched upon any kind of BSA got moved and merged in(to) the BSA section. Any suggestion involving changes to trading - like the ability to only accept part of a trade - got buried there, and usually merged with an older one so that even a search for the title wouldn't have helped anyway.

 

Then there's the yearly recurring drama about Snow Angels, Alt Sweetlings and whichever other breed got us a new surprise - mostly Winter Holiday breeds. Remember when all bred Solstices had blue wings at first? Or when we figured out we couldn't have two of each kind of CB Aegis sprite? Or when Mistletoes proved to be influence-able, meaning that bred ones could turn out male? And let's not talk about the drama surrounding the Soulstone sprite replacement... Or, worse: Prizes, aka the drama-llamas of DC. Seriously. Prize drama happens all the freaking time. Quite a few times, this drama gets rather heated and off-putting for people who aren't used to it.

 

And, of course, there's the thing with years of discussion in a single thread where nothing happens, not even a word from TJ. Until, sometimes, something does happen. Trader's Canyon is a very good example, for this. It was basically a suggestion for the in-cave trading system we have now, with most of the details from the (kind of) consensus being put in. Or the in-cave marketplace. It can be pretty disheartening to see threads like these be discussed quite actively for the better part of a year, then get the occasional flare of attention from some users with seemingly nothing happening. Until, as with the given examples, they suddenly are a new feature.

 

Plus, we did lose some mods that were like pillars of the DC community - Kila (looong time ago), _Z_, Sock... We also lost a number of artists, or so it seemed. A while back, when we still had a very full completed list, quite a few people pulled their art and had it released on a different site.

 

As has been stated, depending on where you post (high-value trades...) or who doesn't agree with you, you can easily find your scroll being viewbombed. You (Shinobi) probably don't know what exactly happened to EATW, but the whole site got attacked with some kind of view-bombing by some bot-network (or something like that) during the holiday breeding season last December. Whcih resulted in thousands of sick eggs and a lot of casualties of precious holiday eggs. It was chaos, plain and simple.

 

Huh, long post is long. Let's not make it any longer.  

[CatCreature]

32 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Including you, I do believe

Yes, I keep fighting the forum software everytime I post something. >.<

 

But I DID say you don't get rid of us that easy. 😜

 

Quote

I just hope it doesn't end up that an FB group takes over from here. And the WYSIWYG editor and the messaging here are still awful and put people off posting.

Facebook can't divide posts into subgroups (such as trading/gifting, help, general dragon talk) like here so I doubt it.

 

But I do hope TJ finds something better in the near future. ^^'

[Fuzzbucket]

No-one will EVER get rid of moi !  💀

 

(Except, of course, by going to facebook - that's one place you will never meet me. )

[Ruby Eyes]

11 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

And the WYSIWYG editor and the messaging here are still awful

Accept it - embrace the madness! And hope for improvements

[Fuzzbucket]

With invision ? You ARE joking.

[RWyvern]

I, for one, merely watch and almost never post any more. Most social platforms I use have seen a decline in use. And there’s a reason for that: life marches on. I joined when I was like, 13. I’m 21 in a month. Opportunities have presented themselves. I’m busy, unlike seven years ago.

 

I’d be willing to wager that’s what’s been happening here for many others, as others have said. People come. People go. Site activity peaks and dips. 

 

And well, I have seen a few leave over upsets. And the forum update changed things. Variables, man.

[Natayah]

I appreciate you posting this and your concern. Just be aware, this is not an uncommon topic. No shade meant, it just comes up at least ... twice a year. I've not "posted" in at least "a few" (maybe multiple?) months, however, it is an issue that is repeatedly discussed. However, there are a few things to consider. 1. When people move on, it is usually a good move for them at least personally. I know for myself I lost a good deal of weight, have gotten more healthy, have a lot more productive and positive life style, and other stuffs. 2. When people move on, it can be a gain for the game (sometimes negativity goes away), or even if it is a loss of a really amazing person it has a few amazing things: It allows new people to step up to fill old spaces, giving them a chance to grow and a chance to do this, AND sometimes it forces people to step up and contribute more and/or consider growing in some way, encourage growth, or other things.

 

What I most encourage people to do is to step up and share ideas they have or projects they want to do. It's why I made the Player Events & Activities Thread - I wanted people to feel encouraged, supported, and then to also share and encourage others to support each other and get involved and all that good stuffs which becomes a cycle upon a cycle that then spirals out and creates more stuffs. I think it is sorta up to players to some degree to create and support and encourage a community and to provide contributions to that community (be it hosting events, participating in them, donating them, regularly sharing them with others to grow, etc.). In the past a lot of people would make really good ideas for events and games, but they would die out as they got buried under other threads and time marching on and people who were there regulars slowing dwindling down due to whatever reason and not having an ongoing source of new participants (no one wants to put out effort if others don't participate and/or get involved and enjoy it). And I found it that a lot of player activity and games and events and whatever increased!

 

Frankly I'm thrilled there is now a "calendar" feature because I never really got to the point of having a Google Calendar (I hoped that in time maybe a "Game Calendar on the forums would consider adding them) to get them added to it. So maybe we'll have it one day, maybe we won't. Hopefully it is something I can get restarted to some degree, but maybe I can get it going again and get a few others to chip in. Either way, ultimately, it is up to the players to participate in their own enjoyment and community to some degree as we cannot always depend upon the the Mods and the Admins and such to always keep us entertained. There are many who like lots of different things. That is why the Forums and other things exist. And we just need to remember to keep involved as much as we can, and love those who leave and retire, but to let them go to grow in their own lives, and find ways to grow things here on our own as we are able.

[_Z_]

The forum always slows down in the summer, we also have to deal with this dumb change to the forum.( personal opinion, it sucks.) But on the bright side many, many original members are still hanging around. Hello to all of you !

[Frostiikin]

I personally wouldn't know, I'm brand new to both DC and the forums 😅

[Dracaena]

Good to see you stopping by, Z. 

 

I agree with the idea the forum activity dropped with the new forums.  I'm not thrilled with them.  I don't go to any outside dragon cave groups so no idea about those, you'll have to come here to find me.  Recently there seems to be a fairly big drop in trade forum activity since the trading hub was released.  But that is too new yet to say how it will all play out for the trade forums.  Frankly I post very little these days in an effort to keep my head down and avoid being on the viewbombers' radar.  Mostly just trades are all I post now.  I avoid posting in news/release threads as that seems to be where many bombers hunt for targets.  Last time I had a bad persistent bomber it was 2-3 months before they finally gave it up.  I don't want to have to go through that again.

[CatCreature]

@_Z_

Hi there. Long time no zee.

[DuskOfTheStars]

+1 to everyone who hates the upgrade... I mostly stay in the RP forums, the upgrade is awful for colouring character text and formatting RP posts.

 

Edit: I definitely see a decent amount of new people in the RP foum, personally. And I've never really had bad attitude vibes from rest of forum? FR forums are kind of eh at times though definitely have some nice people, don't get those odd vibes from here.

Edited July 4, 2018 by DuskOfTheStars

[Fuzzbucket]

13 hours ago, CatCreature said:

@_Z_

Hi there. Long time no zee.

May I ditto that...  

And I wanted to do a but it won't...

 

and then it did. 😀

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by Fuzzbucket