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No separate caps please. I don't freeze, don't play Zombie roulette, trade infrequently, and mostly only breed when I have a trade or for one lineage project at a time. (which at this point in the project is two to four tries, often unsuccessful, per week) Individual caps would require me to change my play style. I do have to a bit now to reach the cap but it's easy enough to catch 8 random eggs, hatch them, then offer them up somewhere or simply abandon them if I decide I don't want to let them grow up on my scroll. You start raising the cap and adding individual caps and I'm going to feel pressured to do more than I feel I have time for. I can't be the only one in that situation and it would be highly annoying.

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6 hours ago, Wiz said:

Maybe the answer is to have different caps on separate things while keeping the overall cap as well. Have the separate individual caps high enough that there is no way you can reach them all before hitting the ceiling of the main overall cap. That way people could pick and choose what activities they wanted to do to reach their limit but there would still be some control over how many eggs it's worth breeding for the AP if the only reason you're doing that is to earn shards. And also if you don't like to freeze you could still earn the shards in other ways.

While this might seem to be the answer to everything, I think it makes things unnecessarily complicated. Which is something to be avoided at all cost.

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I really would hate to see different caps. I am sure I would still reach the caps quite easily because my playstyle involves all kinds of activity. I had reached the cap in less than 48 hours this week. But I don't want to think so hard about reaching the cap/s! I think we should be able to reach it just from doing what we normally do! If I happen not to breed my dragons this week because of a new release, I don't want to have to hurry up and do that at the end of the week to make the cap. I do sometimes breed to the AP just to share nice things, but I don't want to have to. The same with other activities -- I don't want to have to do any specific thing to earn my shards.

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Yes, I take back what I said. KISS and all that. I guess the overstuffed AP will settle down - as long as we Keep The Cap. Or get more hatchie spaces.... All that low time stuff sitting there for the not taking!

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I think if we could get 100 shards a week through any activity (like it is now) plus each week had an additional site wide goals that would be fun.

 

No one has to do them. But a site wide goal people could work to achieve each week would be really fun?

 

Something like "hatch 5,000 eggs!" that, if met, would give everyone an additional 50-200 shards a week so long as they participated (hatched 1 egg/bred 1 dragon/etc) would be nice. This site needs more community events.

 

It would be super fun to have a "catch [x] (very/)common dragons!" goal that would encourage people to hunt for cave blockers... can you imagine a week where everyone suddenly wanted cave blocking breeds? It'd be pretty amusing. Obviously it couldn't be used for anything higher than commons, but still.

 

I could think of a million other challenges. Catch or breed different subtypes, catch or breed certain breeds, hatch eggs, use BSAs... there are so many possibilities even with the limited amount of interactivity DragCave has to make community goals that hand out extra shards.

 

I just want a week where the goal is to collectively use Splash x amount of times 😂

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And if we did, prices would have to rocket. Whatever cap there is will be reflected in prices.

 

Not to mention nasty effects on play styles. And unfairness to players who cannot be online 24/7. Some people even have called internet...

 

Thanks but no thanks.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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1 hour ago, Alrexwolf said:

It would be super fun to have a "catch [x] (very/)common dragons!" goal that would encourage people to hunt for cave blockers... can you imagine a week where everyone suddenly wanted cave blocking breeds? It'd be pretty amusing. Obviously it couldn't be used for anything higher than commons, but still.

 

I could think of a million other challenges. Catch or breed different subtypes, catch or breed certain breeds, hatch eggs, use BSAs... there are so many possibilities even with the limited amount of interactivity DragCave has to make community goals that hand out extra shards.

 

I just want a week where the goal is to collectively use Splash x amount of times 😂

 

I would love to have a "raise X commons" weekly or monthly challenges. Making some commons more valuable for relatively short periods of time would make a positive impact on the market, and maybe more people would have a chance to trade a few of desired commons for uncommons or rares. It would be more convenient to have something like a "dragon of the month" than the "dragon of the week" thing though, since during one week you won't be able to raise to adulthood a significant number of dragons of one breed and you won't have enough time for setting up trades for them, if you'd want to do that.

 

Splash idea is awesome. "Your dragon uses SPLASH... and something finally happens!" :)

Edited by Aurigena

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That's why, instead, in the old Trader's Canyon thread, there was a slightly different approach proposed: Each week (month?), a number of blocker breeds gets a bonus for catching/hatching/raising. Like, +1 shard for each activity and egg/hatchling. These extra shards do not count towards your cap.

 

So, if instead of the usual, you caught 8 blocker eggs from the biomes, you'd get the usual 40 shards counting towards your cap plus 8 extras that don't. And so on. Eventually, you'll have the 100 shards (weekly cap) plus the extras.

 

Come to think of it, catching might be a bad base for bonuses, or people will catch, abandon 5 hours later, rinse, repeat. Eventually, they might hunt the AP for low-time or even incu-hatchable eggs, incu-hatch and re-abandon. And, last but not least, repeat the cycle with low-time hatchlings and eggs to boot. Eventually, that might turn into a major headache. So, instead, maybe only offer extra shards for actually raising said hatchlings?

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Okay I'm going to stick my neck out here, but having lived with it for a little while I'm actually enjoying the low time AP. Sure we get walls of one breed and awful lineages but that happened before anyway. I've found some real gems and it's not been hard. Plus incuhatchable. I've actually found myself frequenting the AP more knowing any finds I keep are not going to eggblock me for long.

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1 hour ago, olympe said:

Come to think of it, catching might be a bad base for bonuses, or people will catch, abandon 5 hours later, rinse, repeat. Eventually, they might hunt the AP for low-time or even incu-hatchable eggs, incu-hatch and re-abandon. And, last but not least, repeat the cycle with low-time hatchlings and eggs to boot. Eventually, that might turn into a major headache. So, instead, maybe only offer extra shards for actually raising said hatchlings?

 

This is a good point. People can already hit the 100-cap by simply grabbing and tossing AP eggs, we don't want to encourage mass catch-abandons for bonuses (at least, I don't). 

 

I did like the Trader's Canyon idea of a small bonus for blocker-breeds, but I think it does need to be a *small* bonus, because as Fuzz mentioned raising the possible-shards limit drastically *will* raise Market prices to compensate. I'm not so sure about 'site-wide' activities... While the idea sounds cool in theory, a *lot* of users *like* that there is limited user-interaction and site-wide user activities. DC is very much a solo game unless you *choose* otherwise by trading or such. If you aren't on the forums you have no clue what other users are collecting or doing on their scrolls and it doesn't really matter. I feel that a site-wide 'must do this in order to get extra shards' may push a feeling of forced-cooperation too much... 'Oh I have to do this to earn these extra shards', 'If I don't do this will others be mad I didn't contribute?' 'If we don't reach the goal then obviously users aren't playing right! They need to do what's good for everyone!' etc etc. 

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Site-wide bonus shard events might start way more drama and discussion than we actually need. If TJ announced that he would like to have more discussion on site-wide bonus shard events, the first thing that will happen is 12+ pages of heated discussion on who will actually be supposed to get the reward and who shouldn't get it. Whether completing the event should reward all players, all players who were active during the event, all players who actually contributed to the event or was one of the top 10% contributers. Seriously, thanks but no thanks. I'd rather do without.

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Can someone catch me up to why the market doesn't have some breeds- is it going to stay that way or just until things get further updated?

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4 minutes ago, Nightwalkerkey said:

Can someone catch me up to why the market doesn't have some breeds- is it going to stay that way or just until things get further updated?

biome based sprites are currently not included because the market isn't coded to deal with them (yet).  Purple florets are assumed to be an error that breaks this pattern.  TJ is looking into a fix. but nothing promised yet.

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15 hours ago, olympe said:

Come to think of it, catching might be a bad base for bonuses, or people will catch, abandon 5 hours later, rinse, repeat. Eventually, they might hunt the AP for low-time or even incu-hatchable eggs, incu-hatch and re-abandon. And, last but not least, repeat the cycle with low-time hatchlings and eggs to boot.

 

I fail to see how people being incentivised to catch/release, incuhatch, etc blocker breeds is anything but good.

If the breed or few breeds change/s every week or month, then I don't think they'll pile up enough to be a problem. Sure there'll be walls, particularly for the first few rounds, but in the long run it could have some major blocker-reducing effects :)

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15 minutes ago, Zeditha said:

 

I fail to see how people being incentivised to catch/release, incuhatch, etc blocker breeds is anything but good.

If the breed or few breeds change/s every week or month, then I don't think they'll pile up enough to be a problem. Sure there'll be walls, particularly for the first few rounds, but in the long run it could have some major blocker-reducing effects :)

 

The only thing that *reduces* blockers is if people actually raise a lot of them... Rewarding people for catching and releasing 5 hours later doesn't reduce blockers, it just moves the unwanted blockers to the AP. Where those of us that mostly hunt from the AP will have to deal with them, tons and tons of unwanted cavebreds because tons of people are being rewarded for catching and releasing them. If the AP stays as low-timed as it has been lately there may be some people who will catch those unwanted breeds anyways, to freeze or whatever, but in general rewarding people for catching and then abandoning unwanted biome eggs is actually simply shifting the unwanted breeds to a different location, it's not actually doing anything about the actual 'blocker problem', since the only way to actually reduce blocker-breeds is to raise tons of them to even out the ratios.

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18 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

unwanted cavebreds

Last I checked, some people (like me) actually like finding low-time CBs in the AP. Cuts off 2 days of keeping eggs of otherwise undesirable breeds on one's scroll.

These eggs aren't being deleted or anything, they still exist, are being raised eventually and thus count towards the ratios, hereby reducing the amount of new individuals of the same breed being created into the biomes.

Perfect, if you ask me.

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Short feedback:
+ Existence of the market at all

+ cap (even though it is a bit low, but it is reasonable)

 

- missing breeds because of biomes (I hope they will be added, because those are actually the ones I would want to get)
- Encyclopedia block even if one already has that dragon on scroll - The one things I always disliked with the encyclopedia, that there was no option to have the things you have recognized (voluntarily, so that those who want to click everything on their own still can). Also checking the fan sites to click non-breedable eggs is very tedious, so I give up personally... If there is a link existing for this at this point, I would be happy if someone could point me to it.

I am quite fond of the overall idea of rewarding raising common breeds. Extra shards for picking them up from cave or raising them to hatchies would be good - both instances other people will be happy to grab even if you ditch them to the AP again. No extra points for breeding them, as this would just lead to walls of one breed.
Site-wide community events like at Christmas (I think, with this bar) would also be good. but based on active players and not overall, as there are many half active like me) or inactive accounts around.
Off side idea: Discount seasons for eggs? Seasonally for instance, that in winter water, deepsea, ice etc. would be cheaper, in summer ember etc.

Off question: Are the prizes fixed or will they be linked to the quota they have and will be adjusted from time to time?

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4 hours ago, urusta said:

- Encyclopedia block even if one already has that dragon on scroll - The one things I always disliked with the encyclopedia, that there was no option to have the things you have recognized (voluntarily, so that those who want to click everything on their own still can). Also checking the fan sites to click non-breedable eggs is very tedious, so I give up personally... If there is a link existing for this at this point, I would be happy if someone could point me to it.

Well, there is a thread, but it's not about clicking eggs. On the plus side, you don't need to click eggs for this.

Here's a link for you:

 

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16 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

The only thing that *reduces* blockers is if people actually raise a lot of them... Rewarding people for catching and releasing 5 hours later doesn't reduce blockers, it just moves the unwanted blockers to the AP. Where those of us that mostly hunt from the AP will have to deal with them, tons and tons of unwanted cavebreds because tons of people are being rewarded for catching and releasing them. If the AP stays as low-timed as it has been lately there may be some people who will catch those unwanted breeds anyways, to freeze or whatever, but in general rewarding people for catching and then abandoning unwanted biome eggs is actually simply shifting the unwanted breeds to a different location, it's not actually doing anything about the actual 'blocker problem', since the only way to actually reduce blocker-breeds is to raise tons of them to even out the ratios.

 

Fairly easy solution: award an additional blocker bonus at hatching. Perhaps if around 5 shards are awarded for picking up a blocker egg from the cave (and only from the cave! I'll elaborate in a minute) and another 5 for hatching, with perhaps an additional 1 for raising to adulthood (not that I see that as necessary, but it's an option.)

This would help to clear out the AP backlog as shard-hunters suddenly scramble to collect these previously undesirable eggs.

 

I'd also like to briefly point out that even if the blocker-bonus shards are unlimited (which I personally wouldn't be against - the blocker reduction from the most dedicated shard-hunters would far outweigh, for me, the negative that they might earn more shards than me) they will be fundamentally limited by eggslots. If someone dedicates themselves to playing catch/release in the biomes, then they can only gain one egg's worth of bonus shards every 5 hours for every slot they have. Sure, it's a big limit, but it is still technically a limit.

And I would wager that not long into the time a blocker is rewarded, you'd be hard-pressed to find them at low times in the AP. Sure, that's a bummer for anyone looking for that breed, but it should only last one week/month, so it shouldn't be too hard to focus on catching from the cave, or raising other breeds for a short time period - and those who are sick of seeing nothing but blocker breeds in the AP, it'd be a real relief.

 

More thoughts on limits: while I'm not strongly against limits on blocker shards (the more incentive, the more reduction in blocker annoyance!) I think that it would dramatically unbalance the market, particularly with shards being as valuable as they are. Therefore, I think a *separate* shard cap on the blocker of the week/month/whatever that lasts for that time period of somewhere in the region of 1-3 times the current/other shard limit would be good. I think it needs to be at least as high as our current shard limit to provide shard hunters with suitable incentive to clear the biomes, but obviously it shouldn't be too high - for all the same reasons that the main limit shouldn't.

 

On awarding only for cave pickups: obviously rewarding grabbing an AP blocker isn't an option, otherwise players will just play catch/release in the AP to fill whatever cap there is instead of actually raising the breeds.

I'm unsure on whether breeding blockers should be counted. On the one hand, those players who breed their masses of a blocker breed are contributing by adding more blocker eggs into circulation, helping the ratios out; on the other hand, many users have expressed negativity towards the idea of rewarding wall-making. I think that with a lowish cap (1-1.5x the other cap) breeding blockers should simply be counted, while perhaps if a larger limit is used, breeding blocker eggs could only gain you, say, 50 shards towards that same limit.

 

 

I'm tired here have my ramblings

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7 hours ago, Zeditha said:

Fairly easy solution: award an additional blocker bonus at hatching. Perhaps if around 5 shards are awarded for picking up a blocker egg from the cave (and only from the cave! I'll elaborate in a minute) and another 5 for hatching, with perhaps an additional 1 for raising to adulthood (not that I see that as necessary, but it's an option.)

This would help to clear out the AP backlog as shard-hunters suddenly scramble to collect these previously undesirable eggs.

 

Please feel free to correct me in case I'm wrong, but I remember something about only adult dragons counting towards ratios or something like that. If it's true, then raising a dragon to adulthood should be the most important and maybe only this action should give shards. Let's look at the situation when you can get, for example: +1 shard for catching a common egg from the biome or from the AP, +1 shard for hatching an egg, +3 shards for raising a dragon to adulthood (since this is the most important for ratios, it should give the most shards). That gives us +5 shards in total for catch / hatch / raise a common action. In case of a player with platinum trophy (I hope I didn't mess up the numbers), we would have:

 

day 1: catching 8 eggs (batch I) = 8 shards

eggs incubated

day 3: 8 hatchlings (batch I) = 8 shards + 8 new eggs (batch II) = 8 shards
eggs incubated

day 5: 8 hatchlings (batch II) = 8 shards + 8 eggs (batch III) = 8 shards
eggs incubated, player scroll locked

day 6: 8 adult dragons (batch I) = 24 shards

day 7: 8 hatchlings (batch III) = 8 shards + 8 new eggs (batch IV) = 8 shards

eggs incubated, player scroll locked

 

Though this is a rather exaggerated scenario, we have max. 80 shards possible to obtain per week - too many, in my opinion. In a situation when catch / hatch / raise one dragon action gives you min. 3 shards (+1 for catching, +1 for hatching, +1 for raising to adulthood), you still can get max. 64 shards per week - still too many, in my opinion. Then let's consider another scenario: +3 shards only for raising a dragon to adulthood - that gives us around 24 shards per week for raising 8 adults. I know that during another week of playing the numbers can change, but something around 24 shards per week looks reasonable.

 

Rewarding only raising a dragon to adulthood:

- wouldn't encourage the "catch and toss to the AP" behaviour,

- wouldn't encourage excessive AP breeding, because breeding commons wouldn't be rewarded in shards, and keeping an egg for yourself would give you more profit,

- would be better for ratios (assuming that only adults count towards ratios, though I'm not sure about that),

- would encourage trading low time eggs or hatchlings, since people who would be focused on obtaining shards would need more low time commons (and perhaps they would be motivated enough to offer nice things for them - the positive market impact).

 

Edited by Aurigena

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If there's no reward for raising the blockers to adulthood, they will all get dumped into the AP.

Have you ever seen a hatchie last more than 0.5 seconds in the AP? I certainly haven't.

Giving a comparatively small reward to raising to adulthood will encourage the picking up of the hatchies and should prevent hatchie walls from ever forming. But rewarding the collecting and hatching of the blockers is the most important step, because once they're hatchies, they're basically guaranteed to become adults (or frozens). (no reward should be given for freezing blockers if frozens don't help the ratios. If frozens don't help, raising should definitely be rewarded, to make sure the hatchies end up as adults.)

 

It does seem that we have a fundamental difference of opinion in how many shards it's ok to earn. But let's take a look at if biome catching is rewarded, at just 1 shard per egg, with max trophy:

 

start: collect 8 eggs. (8)

5 hours: abandon first clutch, collect 8 more eggs. (16)

10 hours: abandon second clutch, collect 8 more eggs. (24)

15 hours: abandon third clutch, collect 8 more eggs. (32)

20 hours: abandon fourth clutch, collect 8 more eggs. (40)

25 hours: abandon fifth clutch, collect 8 more eggs. (48)

 

As you can see, playing catch/release in the biomes can easily earn players many shards. If we assume this player also picks up and hatches low-time AP eggs or collects and raises AP hatchies, then it's easy to see them earning more than 50 shards in a day. (A day of constant activity, but just one day nonetheless.) This is why I think (now) that placing a cap on blocker-bonus shards and not worrying about how fast players can earn shards is the best bet.

 

If only raising hatchlings to adulthood is rewarded, many players might choose not to bother, either because they don't want the dragons on their scroll (some people refuse to collect certain breeds) or they don't think the extra shards are worth sacrificing all of their eggslots and hatchieslots for the entire week. This is why I heavily support rewarding all steps: catching, hatching, raising.

 

I don't know what weightings are currently on those steps, but I would suggest a blocker shard cap the same as the main cap, and raising a blocker to give 2x the bonus shards that it does normal shards. Before you cry foul, here's my thought process:

The current shard limit is designed to be reachable through normal play.

You can be expected to, at maximum, raise blockers as half of your normal dragons.

Therefore, to reach the same cap, blockers should need to be twice as valuable.

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@Zeditha I understand your point of view and your idea certainly has many pros, but aside from the shards earning system, it also has a few strong cons:

 

1. Encouraging tossing eggs to the AP would be inevitably connected to breeding commons, including some horribly messy commons, and even if we are talking about the AP filled with hatchlings, I suppose that many players wouldn't be happy to raise and keep them on their scrolls. Unless we are talking about giving shards only for catching / hatching CB eggs, this would become a serious problem.

 

2. It wouldn't be really that bad if, let's say, only the first two rows of the AP were filled with low time eggs and hatchlings of this one common breed, but the AP might also become clogged with them (mainly with bred eggs). Of course, this doesn't apply to "CBs only" system, since I doubt that the cave produces so many CB commons of one breed per hour that they would be able to dominate the AP.

 

3. For many players, it would be easier to breed a few specific commons than to catch a few eggs of the same breed from biomes. We already have so many common breeds that hunting in biomes for a specific common, or a few of them for that matter, can be time-consuming and sometimes even frustrating. With many users camping in biomes in search of one specific breed, I suppose it would be much worse. I think that more commons would actually be raised if people could be rewarded for raising the bred eggs and contributing more adults to the ratios in this way (but again, any breeding reward system, especially without a cap, would result in AP clogged with bred eggs).

 

4. I... really don't like the idea of rewarding "catch and toss to the AP" behaviour. Maybe it's silly, but for me, it's encouraging irresponsibility, something like "I don't really want those commons on my scroll, but I could use some more shards - so I'll catch or breed those commons and toss them to the AP, and let the other people worry about raising and keeping them". And we were talking about the system that would not only reward activity, but also have a good impact on ratios. Catching or breeding a common and tossing it to the AP - it isn't actually contributing more adults to the ratios, it's just making other people to do that instead of you. That's why I think that only raising a common to the adult should be rewarded.

 

 

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On 5/31/2018 at 2:51 PM, DragonLady86 said:

biome based sprites are currently not included because the market isn't coded to deal with them (yet).  Purple florets are assumed to be an error that breaks this pattern.  TJ is looking into a fix. but nothing promised yet.

Two-headed Lindwyrms, too. The purple is alpine, the green is forest, but the purple one is available in the market. Yet the baikala (blue in coast, green in forest & jungle) isn't there.

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@Aurigena I have a few thoughts to combat most of those cons!

 

For your points about breeding: My thought was that only a small amount, say 20-50%, of the bonus cap could be reached via breeding. This would ensure that a healthy amount of the eggs that end up in the AP are CB - not all, but not too few. That, or give breeding a lower reward than catching. (Or both! But the first one is better, IMO.)

I also think that rewarding hatching is the most important step, and making sure that hatching is given a high reward should prevent walls from being annoying.

 

 

Here's something we seem to fundamentally disagree on: you seem to think (correct me if I'm wrong) that eggs and hatchlings (particularly eggs) tossed to the AP won't become adults and will simply be annoying.

I'd like to ask a genuine question: has the AP ever (excluding after holiday walls) gone below insta-hatchies? (And if so, how many times?) I find it hard to imagine any wall lasting long once the eggs can be hatched immediately, and even less time if there's a shard reward for doing so. Hatchlings in the AP are always scooped up immediately due to hatchie-slots being in such abundance relative to eggslots, and with even a small (say, only one or two shards compared to 3-5ish for catching/hatching) reward for raising to adulthood, those blockers will soon become a commodity.

Also, aren't the blockers already annoying in the cave? Even if they do get annoying in the AP, they certainly won't be in the biomes.

 

 

There are people who currently do catch/release blockers from the biomes to the AP. We call them cave plumbers, removing the blockers from the way to help expose the rarer breeds underneath, move the caves faster, and make hunting more fun. There aren't enough of them, but if suddenly everyone is becoming a cave plumber, these blockers won't be in the way. These people are considered a force for good in the cave; why would rewarding that behaviour be bad?

And I see it as less of "I don't want these eggs, let's make them other peoples' problems" and more of "let's move these unwanted eggs from the cave where they're annoying, to the AP where they lose time and become wanted!" That's certainly the attitude of the aforementioned cave plumbers.

 

Sure, for people who like the breed in question, getting hold of lots of them is going to be tougher. But those people can still breed a few and hatch them, or catch CBs from the AP, and even if not the time that a blocker is rewarded for should only be a week to a month (I like the idea of two weeks) so it can probably be suffered through.

 

 

I'd also like to point out that with a cap as low as our current main cap (which I now think is a nice compromise) would allow people to rack up to the bonus shard limit with not much effort. This will mean that the positive effects will take a small while to be noticeable, but the short-term negatives will be less severe as people quickly hit their caps and move on.

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3 hours ago, Aurigena said:

 

4. I... really don't like the idea of rewarding "catch and toss to the AP" behaviour. Maybe it's silly, but for me, it's encouraging irresponsibility, something like "I don't really want those commons on my scroll, but I could use some more shards - so I'll catch or breed those commons and toss them to the AP, and let the other people worry about raising and keeping them". And we were talking about the system that would not only reward activity, but also have a good impact on ratios. Catching or breeding a common and tossing it to the AP - it isn't actually contributing more adults to the ratios, it's just making other people to do that instead of you. That's why I think that only raising a common to the adult should be rewarded.

 

 

Very very much agree with this. If the system is going to give people extra shards for *any* sort of behavior, it should be something that actually benefits the site, like raising blocker breeds... *raising* blocker breeds. Because grabbing a few blockers from the biome and then tossing them to the AP doesn't actually help the site or the blocker problem at all, which is something I said in my last post. And while I understand the thought process behind 'low-time AP blockers will be more wanted', it's also *not* universally true, and in all honesty it's *going* to piss some people off. Like those of us who hunt the AP *because* we do *not* want CBs, for example. There are already times when the AP is like 2/3rds CBs (I post about that in the 'bad luck' thread a lot!), this would make that a million times worse. Not everyone would be happy about an AP that is constantly filled with CBs, no matter the time on them. And, again, simply catching and tossing isn't actually *helping* the blocker problem in any way, in fact it's really just rewarding people for believing that it's fine to toss the blocker-burden onto someone else.

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