Market Feedback

[Fuzzbucket]

4 hours ago, Aurigena said:

 

Sorry, but that's not true, every game rewards - or should reward - players who spend more time playing and who put more effort in playing the game. Making people want to spend their time, effort or money on the game you created is one the basic goals of every game creator and to achieve that, you simply have to reward the most dedicated players. Spending a lot of time playing? Great, have a bonus. Spend less time playing? Play without a bonus and have fun, it's not like the bonus for dedicated players ruins your gaming experience. Plus, if you don't reward dedicated players, they often get bored and go somewhere else, where being a dedicated player pays off.

 

On DC, every players sticks to their own scroll, so I really don't see how the other player buying more eggs from the Market or earning more shards for spending more time on DC ruins your gaming experience. Does that prevents you from playing the way you want or what? Because for now, it's something along those lines: "I can't stand it when more active player gets more good stuff than me, I don't have so much time for playing, it's not fair!"

 

 

Leaving aside that I totally disagree with you anyway - one word. Ratios. Dedicated players (and you can be dedicated enough to spend every second playing that you aren't in school/at work/operating on a capped internet connection and still not have as much time as someone who is home 24/7) can buy loads and skew the trading market as badly as prizes have, for those with fewer options. This game is not a contest. We just got a lovely extra thing. Fleshed out very much as the large number of members who contributed to the thread asking for it wanted. Can't we get on and enjoy it instead of just demanding MORE and that it is tailored to OUR gameplay ?

 

And I repeat - to your

 

Quote

Because for now, it's something along those lines: "I can't stand it when more active player gets more good stuff than me, I don't have so much time for playing, it's not fair!"

 

I could spend all day playing. All night too. This isn't about me. I would GAIN (in your terms) by your suggestion. It's about the game for everyone.

 

Prices. I suspect as the thing settles down, they will adjust. TJ has said they are based on current gameplay actions.

 

1 hour ago, JavaTigress said:

AND isn't that how real money works, also?

 

Sometimes you have to decide what is important enough to you to spend it on?

 

EXACTLY THIS.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[purplehaze]

Why must DC be like "every other game"? It is exactly DC's uniqueness that attracts many of us!

[Fuzzbucket]

This too. It's the only game I play BECAUSE it isn't like all the others.

[Auriene]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

DC isn't "every other game". DC is DC. And, unlike "every other game", DC is and always has been a game where everyone could play at their own pace. Besides, DC isn't meant for anyone to spend their money on, as there isn't anything you can actually pay for (unless you count the ad removal subscription). Being dedicated already pays off for many by being able to get more of the rare dragons that pretty much everyone wants. Also, DC and "every other game" seem to define "dedicated players" in a very different way. While "every other game" defines dedicated players as players as those with often excessive daily activity and often the willingness and ability to spend lots of money, DC's definition is different. Because DC rewards long-time players with at least a modicum of regular activity (weekly to monthly) more than any other kind of player.

 

Yes, everyone can play at their own pace, but that doesn't mean that being a dedicated player on DC really pays off. There are many players who camp in biomes for hours and can't catch rares because of server / connection / internet thing, so "being able to get more rares" isn't exactly a reward for being a dedicated player, and I'm sure that many players can confirm that.

 

And let's be clear, a long-time player isn't exactly the same as a dedicated player. Advantages of being a long-time DC player lay mainly in having many dragons on your scroll, being able to catch dragons during releases, having "original" Holidays, having many BSA dragons, having a platinum trophy etc., but advantages of being a dedicated DC player who spends a lot of time playing (no matter if they joined two years, a year or a month ago) are simply nonexistent. You have to obtain, hatch and raise dragons in the same pace and in the same manner as everyone, you are getting the same number of slots, shards, you have to reach the same ridiculously low level of hatched dragons to enter the raffle etc.

 

As for the ratios - why is everything about Golds and Golds only? I'm sure that many players (me included) would be happy buying more specific commons or uncommons to complete their collections or for lineage projects (maybe some cave blockers could be sold as hatchlings, so that more people would buy them?). Anyways, @meruru already pointed out that when "everyone rushes to get" a Gold from the Market (and I bet that some people are already saving their shards for that), the system would set up insane prices for Golds, probably making them unobtainable for another year or so. The problem with ratios and prices already exists, regardless of amount of shards we'd be able to earn or spend. As for the trading, please let's be reasonable about that - there's nothing wrong with trading with friends or family members and if someone wants to trade with them more to earn shards, then why not? That's not a loophole that can be terribly exploited forever, one has only so many Magis on their scroll.

[Fuzzbucket]

Anyone can trade with anyone and play any which way to earn shards. But there is no need at all to raise the cap.

 

Ratios - because the prices are all about ratios.

Golds - because virtually everyone wants more CB golds.The other things I need I can catch in the biomes (except prizes, of course.) Realistically THE egg that so many of us have never managed to catch is the gold egg. I have caught every other egg, more than once many even on dodgy dial-up. For my scroll goals,  I "need" three more golds, and I am quite happy taking three years of pretty dedicated play to get them.

 

That's why everyone is talking golds. Because at last it is the chance we have been waiting for actually to get them - not only that, to be SURE of getting them.

 

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You have to obtain, hatch and raise dragons in the same pace and in the same manner as everyone, you are getting the same number of slots, shards, you have to reach the same ridiculously low level of hatched dragons to enter the raffle etc.

 

Exactly. It's called a level playing field.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Auriene]

47 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

Why must DC be like "every other game"? It is exactly DC's uniqueness that attracts many of us!

 

If the uniqueness of DC is defined by preventing the most active and dedicated players from getting a signifacant reward for their activity, then it's not a "uniqueness" in a positive meaning of this word, at least not for me. I'm not saying that the shard system should reward mindless grinding, but there's is a difference between a player who logs in once a week and a player who is more active - uses BSAs, trades, catches and hatches more dragons, experiments with zombies, neglecteds etc. Why they should get the same amount of shards, while the second one puts significantly more effort in playing than the first one?

[Fuzzbucket]

It's not just a matter of effort. Why should a player with a job and small children to look after, and who plays as much as they can in the time they have available, lose out because someone like me can put hours and hours into playing ?

[Auriene]

@Fuzzbucket - sorry, but you clearly don't understand the "level playing field" concept. "Not each player has an equal chance to succeed, but they all play by the same set of rules" - says the wikipedia definition and that's what I'm proposing. I'm not proposing setting new rules for dedicated players or something. What you are proposing, on the other hand, is reverse discrimination I mentioned before. It's like saying that a loyal, engaged employee who stays over hours shouldn't get any bonus / shouldn't earn more than an employee who puts only minimal effort in their work. Well, I'm all for rewarding and encouraging people's engagement and activity.

 

Besides, why you mention "losing"? What is the definition of "losing" in DC? Other players have more dragons? More rares? More prizes? More offsprings of spriters' alts? More chances for obtaining them (see the level playing field definition)? Not to mention that people here have very different goals.

[purplehaze]

2 hours ago, Aurigena said:

 

If the uniqueness of DC is defined by preventing the most active and dedicated players from getting a signifacant reward for their activity, then it's not a "uniqueness" in a positive meaning of this word, at least not for me. I'm not saying that the shard system should reward mindless grinding, but there's is a difference between a player who logs in once a week and a player who is more active - uses BSAs, trades, catches and hatches more dragons, experiments with zombies, neglecteds etc. Why they should get the same amount of shards, while the second one puts significantly more effort in playing than the first one?

Presumably they do all of that already because they enjoy doing it. 

 

The uniqueness of DC for me is that anyone can play at their own speed and with their own goals. To reward certain play styles, or people with the spare time to put more time into the game, seems to change all that. This idea (the market) was carefully crafted over time to allow all players to benefit from it. It was actually honed to what it is by many people who could have benefited more from the sort of system that you are advocating, but who felt it was not fair to leave out those who could not spend the time required to grind for shards.

[Fuzzbucket]

9 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

Presumably they do all of that already because they enjoy doing it. 

 

The uniqueness of DC for me is that anyone can play at their own speed and with their own goals. To reward certain play styles, or people with the spare time to put more time into the game, seems to change all that. This idea (the market) was carefully crafted over time to allow all players to benefit from it. It was actually honed to what it is by many people who could have benefited more from the sort of system that you are advocating, but who felt it was not fair to leave out those who could not spend the time required to grind for shards.

 

Exactly this. I'm out.

[Wiz]

13 minutes ago, purplehaze said:

Presumably they do all of that already because they enjoy doing it. 

 

The uniqueness of DC for me is that anyone can play at their own speed and with their own goals. To reward certain play styles, or people with the spare time to put more time into the game, seems to change all that. This idea (the market) was carefully crafted over time to allow all players to benefit from it. It was actually honed to what it is by many people who could have benefited more from the sort of system that you are advocating, but who felt it was not fair to leave out those who could not spend the time required to grind for shards.

 

Perfectly said.

I spend way to much time on DC but to have the ability to grind for lots of shards? To me that's a negative change and a horrible idea. A slightly higher cap? Maybe after the market has been running a while TJ might raise it, maybe not.

Like I mentioned before, I like that it ticks quietly away in the background without really having to think about it. Months from now when I've saved enough for that Silver I want it will be awesome because I've earned it over time and it won't feel like an easy out.

[Amazon_warrior]

I'm not sure I'm going to have all that much use for the market, honestly, because I am in the fortunate position of already having met my scroll goals for everything except the last two releases.  Maybe, maybe I might use it if I want to do an unusual lineage with biome-related dragons like Coppers.  I'm really happy that it gives another option to those who have struggled for so long to obtain rarer eggs as CB, though.  Personally, given that Market eggs can't be teleported (a restriction I completely understand and support) I am just going to save up my shards, buy a CB metal when I can, and drop it into the AP for someone else to find.  The no-teleport thing should mean that they'll have to choose to keep it or "re-gift" it in the same way.

 

ETA random thought: I wonder if the Market will make it easier for TJ to add new true rares?  After all, now people have an option beyond "be there on release day and be fast" or "own a CB prize or spriter alt".

Edited May 27, 2018 by Amazon_warrior

[olympe]

Right now, the cap is made so that even a new player can reach it with only minor grinding (eg. sifting through the AP). (Day 1: Catching 4 eggs from the biomes. (+20 shards) Day 4: Hatching the first batch of eggs (+12 shards), catching 4 more from the biomes. (+20 shards). Day 7: Raising 4 hatchlings (+12 shards), hatching 4 eggs (+12 shards), catching 4 new eggs from the biomes (+20 shards) = Sum: 96 shards. They'd only have to pick up 4 eggs from the AP and re-abandon them in order to reach their limit. Which makes it a good limit, if you ask me. Because it gives even new players a chance to reach the cap without having to go out of their way.

 

3 hours ago, Aurigena said:

Yes, everyone can play at their own pace, but that doesn't mean that being a dedicated player on DC really pays off. There are many players who camp in biomes for hours and can't catch rares because of server / connection / internet thing, so "being able to get more rares" isn't exactly a reward for being a dedicated player, and I'm sure that many players can confirm that.

(tbc)

Very true, which is why I'm grateful for the market we have now. However, being able to camp out in the biomes for long periods of time does increase your chances significantly. (If you never enter the biomes, your chances of catching a CB gold are zero.) And, despite my lack of success on the gold front, I can attest to the fact that it's easier to catch uncommons/almost-rares if you spend long hours hunting.

 

Quote

And let's be clear, a long-time player isn't exactly the same as a dedicated player. Advantages of being a long-time DC player lay mainly in having many dragons on your scroll, being able to catch dragons during releases, having "original" Holidays, having many BSA dragons, having a platinum trophy etc., but advantages of being a dedicated DC player who spends a lot of time playing (no matter if they joined two years, a year or a month ago) are simply nonexistent. You have to obtain, hatch and raise dragons in the same pace and in the same manner as everyone, you are getting the same number of slots, shards, you have to reach the same ridiculously low level of hatched dragons to enter the raffle etc.

(tbc)

Staying with a game for years does take dedication. Or they wouldn't be here any more. Besides, what's wrong with having to play by the same rules as everyone else?

 

Quote

As for the ratios - why is everything about Golds and Golds only? I'm sure that many players (me included) would be happy buying more specific commons or uncommons to complete their collections or for lineage projects (maybe some cave blockers could be sold as hatchlings, so that more people would buy them?). Anyways, @meruru already pointed out that when "everyone rushes to get" a Gold from the Market (and I bet that some people are already saving their shards for that), the system would set up insane prices for Golds, probably making them unobtainable for another year or so. The problem with ratios and prices already exists, regardless of amount of shards we'd be able to earn or spend. As for the trading, please let's be reasonable about that - there's nothing wrong with trading with friends or family members and if someone wants to trade with them more to earn shards, then why not? That's not a loophole that can be terribly exploited forever, one has only so many Magis on their scroll.

Some people hoard certain dragons. If you had, let's say, 200 Magis, that'd be 200 teleports from you - plus the same number from your partner(s). And before you call 200 an unreasonable number - I've seen armies of dragons (or chickens) in the four digits. Also, you can always buy 1 common each week. (And don't forget that the market is not meant to replace cave hunting...)

[Meruru]

wait... are we really unable to trade market dragons? that's a bummer if that's true 😕

[Amazon_warrior]

6 minutes ago, meruru said:

wait... are we really unable to trade market dragons? that's a bummer if that's true 😕

 

Yup:

[Sazandora]

Yeah, it's true. Not that I really mind, it's something to keep multiscrollers from hoarding dozens of shards for themselves, and then buying lots of rare dragons for their main account.

[Amazon_warrior]

Just now, Sazandora said:

Yeah, it's true. Not that I really mind, it's something to keep multiscrollers from hoarding dozens of shards for themselves, and then buying lots of rare dragons for their main account.

 

This.  Means that someone buying an egg (hopefully) really wants that egg, rather than as a means to trade or fill up their "main" scroll with shiny things.

[Guillotine]

It was part of what made people accept a market in the first place, so I'm not too fussed about it. There were a fair few pages back in the Trader's Canyon thread about not wanting a market that would help multiscrollers multiscroll.
 

[Meruru]

okay, that's a good thing

 

[Auriene]

1 hour ago, purplehaze said:

Presumably they do all of that already because they enjoy doing it. 

 

The uniqueness of DC for me is that anyone can play at their own speed and with their own goals. To reward certain play styles, or people with the spare time to put more time into the game, seems to change all that. This idea (the market) was carefully crafted over time to allow all players to benefit from it. It was actually honed to what it is by many people who could have benefited more from the sort of system that you are advocating, but who felt it was not fair to leave out those who could not spend the time required to grind for shards.

 

Maybe I should repeat for the last time: activity rewarding = OK, grinding rewarding = not OK. There are ways to prevent grinding and some of them were mentioned in this thread. For example, caps are a good way to ensure that players won't grind, though at the moment they are so low that you don't have to put any significant effort to reach them, as some other people here pointed out.

 

It seems that we won't understand each other. By your logic, players shouldn't be rewarded for more active play style, because that won't be fair to players who, from various reasons, aren't as active (though I don't see any reasoning behind that "unfairness" argument, other than weirdly understood "level playing field"). I'm still convinced that rewarding activity would be more fair than ignoring it and would be more beneficial to the game.

 

To sum things up, I'm for:

- raising caps so that they pose at least a small challenge for an average player,

- getting shards from more available actions like using BSAs (there could be caps on amount of shards you can get from one action to prevent grinding),

- getting bonus shards for weekly or monthly "quests" (for example, "raise 3 dragons of the X breed to earn X extra shards" - this could be helpful with cave blockers),

- giving players the ability to buy extra egg slot(s) (this could be narrowed to bred-egg-only type of slot - this could be helpful for lineage builders),

- fixing the price system to avoid more desirable rares' prices skyrocketing - maybe cutting the price system off from ratios and  / or freezing the prices, though I suppose this won't happen,

- non-dragon stuff in the Market (egg slots, potions, accesories), because more fun

[purplehaze]

9 minutes ago, Aurigena said:

It seems that we won't understand each other.

Likely true.  If it is any help, I don't disagree with everything you are saying. I think things can, and likely will, be tweaked as we go along to include some of the things you want. I don't expect TJ to make any changes immediately except ones to fix real problems with the system, though. It took him several years to implement this after it was pretty well hashed out in the suggestions forum, so I think he will let it stand for awhile to see how it plays out.

[Sazandora]

Yes, I'm absolutely in for fixing the market prices to stay the same at all times. I don't want to save up nine months for a gold, only to see its price rocketing up to, say, twice its original price!

[olympe]

36 minutes ago, Sazandora said:

Yes, I'm absolutely in for fixing the market prices to stay the same at all times. I don't want to save up nine months for a gold, only to see its price rocketing up to, say, twice its original price!

That's my one big fear, too. Which is why I save up NOW so I can get one ASAP. And I'm keeping an eye on gold prices, too. Because - is it just me, or was it originally 4100 shards and is now at 4000? Something to keep in mind while saving shards, too.

[Shokomon]

25 minutes ago, olympe said:

That's my one big fear, too. Which is why I save up NOW so I can get one ASAP. And I'm keeping an eye on gold prices, too. Because - is it just me, or was it originally 4100 shards and is now at 4000? Something to keep in mind while saving shards, too.

I knew I should have just screenshotted the original prices.

We should probably make a thread for that...

 

I'm going to put my vote for keeping the cap! I met the cap this time, but I was also raising way more dragons due to the release. It won't be the same during normal times. 

[olympe]

8 minutes ago, Shokomon said:

I knew I should have just screenshotted the original prices.

We should probably make a thread for that...

You can look it up in this very thread. On page two, someone stated they'd have to save up 40 weeks for a gold since they already had 100 shards...

 

ETA: There's also this:

On 5/21/2018 at 12:15 PM, OrcaFreak said:

Just a few quick questions/remarks:

[*snip*]

 

* Some of the cost prizes really throw me off. Why is the chicken the most expensive thing in the market?

Saving up 40 weeks to buy a gold seems reasonable, but saving 57 weeks to buy a chicken 

So... chickens are currently at 5600 shards...

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by olympe