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I don't really think it matters whether or not they would do it again (which none of us can be certain of either way). The fact is they did it. They deliberately, intentionally broke the rules. Now, because my mind works better in concrete examples, I'll give some, feel free to ignore if that's not how your mind works: 11 years ago my mom stole from a store. They banned her from that store. Forever. They did not go 'oh okay, well you learned your lesson so you can come back', no, she's banned forever. Because she broke the rules. Years ago we got our electricity shut off for non-payment. It was over 10 years ago, and yet it's still a part of our account and we still have stricter penalties applied to us in regards to late payments, because of our 'breaking the rules' all those years ago. 

 

What I'm trying to say is, actions have consequences. Deliberate, intentional rule-breaking has consequences, consequences that often don't just go away because some time has passed. What was done is still wrong and still against the rules and was still done deliberately, no matter how much time has passed. I'm not saying the bans *should* be forever, but I certainly understand why they would be. Also, deliberate, intentional rule-breaking is, in general, more likely to be repeated then accidentally, didn't-know rule-breaking. Because the person knew and did it anyways. Why would it be assumed that they wouldn't do it again if they felt it was 'needed'?

 

edit: Wanted to add, loooooving the pagination! So so so much better. I no longer have to worry about my trade falling off the front page, wondering if I should re-post it so it can be seen, etc. Trades seem to go a lot easier when you aren't constantly worrying if they are actually being seen!

Edited by HeatherMarie

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2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I don't really think it matters whether or not they would do it again (which none of us can be certain of either way). The fact is they did it. They deliberately, intentionally broke the rules. Now, because my mind works better in concrete examples, I'll give some, feel free to ignore if that's not how your mind works: 11 years ago my mom stole from a store. They banned her from that store. Forever. They did not go 'oh okay, well you learned your lesson so you can come back', no, she's banned forever. Because she broke the rules. Years ago we got our electricity shut off for non-payment. It was over 10 years ago, and yet it's still a part of our account and we still have stricter penalties applied to us in regards to late payments, because of our 'breaking the rules' all those years ago. 

 

What I'm trying to say is, actions have consequences. Deliberate, intentional rule-breaking has consequences, consequences that often don't just go away because some time has passed. What was done is still wrong and still against the rules and was still done deliberately, no matter how much time has passed. I'm not saying the bans *should* be forever, but I certainly understand why they would be. Also, deliberate, intentional rule-breaking is, in general, more likely to be repeated then accidentally, didn't-know rule-breaking. Because the person knew and did it anyways. Why would it be assumed that they wouldn't do it again if they felt it was 'needed'?

 

HeatherMarie summed it up very well.

 

 

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Not gonna bother arguing whether or not I deserve a permaban. I regret only that others apparently were hit as well, but I wouldn't have done anything different on my end.

 

Perhaps the "You did something wrong in Public Trade and now you've been banned" should go directly under the Public Trade area rather than having to open the Private Trade area.

Spoiler

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Edit: I realize now this is not the time or place for an argument of how dismissive the involved mods were so I've deleted most of my post, but suffice to say I hope nothing like this comes up again in the actual game.

Edited by Shadowdrake

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10 hours ago, purplehaze said:

Some people on this forum seem to have a deep-seated distrust of TJ and the mods. Therefore I suspect they would do the same thing again if they felt a "need". If they had believed the statements that were made here they would have waited a bit longer to see how things worked out.

 

This. As several of us said - WAIT; TJ has said the bans people were getting for ACCIDENTAL rule breaking would be lifted. Those who carried on anyway - even if they  were "just trying to be helpful" -  knew what they were doing. And they also knew that those unwitting rule breakers would not be perma-banned.

 

It's sad, the lack of trust in admin here, sometimes.

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1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

It's sad, the lack of trust in admin here, sometimes.

It's not only the lack of trust in the admin, but also the lack of trust in the mods sometimes. It feels like some of us are being ignored by certain mods who seem to side with others about the rules and we end up being frustrated simply because they aren't being fair with us. We're saying that the rules need to be defined on the trading hub and then the mods who are supposed to be fair and reasonable are saying, "no. We don't need rules. We'd rather force everyone onto the forums." So I'm guessing they rather ban people for making rather innocent mistakes and most likely not knowing what they did wrong because the rules aren't 'defined' on the hub. 

 

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The mods have said several times that no-one should be forced on to the forums. And the trading hub was very new and at once the need for modifications was seen. It was said several times - including by TJ - give it a bit of time as we want to get it right. Everyone who came to this thread to complain about the ineffective rules SAW that it was against the rules to post about them in the hub and they did so anyway knowing exactly what they were doing; it was stated repeatedly that it was against the rules, along with the warning please wait for this to be sorted, no-one who is banned for genuinely accidental infractions will be perma banned.

 

I didn't see a single dismissive mod. Of course they side with each other - they all work to the same guidelines. Would you want policemen each interpreting the traffic rules differently ?

 

They never said we don't need rules. They did say at times that what people were suggesting was unnecessarily complicated. Which it was.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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They did interpret it differently to each other, and I think there were definitely some saying "the existing rules are fine".

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Well, as you know, many of us thought they were clear enough. I was blasted for saying exactly that ! :lol:

 

And they did say at times "this is what I would mod till I am told differently... " That isn't the same as being dismissive and ignoring people. Man, I would HATE to be a mod here.

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33 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Well, as you know, many of us thought they were clear enough. I was blasted for saying exactly that ! :lol:

 

And they did say at times "this is what I would mod till I am told differently... " That isn't the same as being dismissive and ignoring people. Man, I would HATE to be a mod here.

XD I can totally agree with you on the point of not being sure I could do our mods' job. They do their best, I am sure.

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They get more flak than the mods on ANY other forum I have ever been on. I'm not too sure what that says about us, the general users. I think they do amazingly well - especially considering how they are so often treated. (And before anyone asks; I've been warned LOTS of times myself; it's no that I have never copped a warn or anything. And one I did think was unjust - but it could have been argued either way - and in those cases, the mod wins. They have to.)

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3 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

They get more flak than the mods on ANY other forum I have ever been on. I'm not too sure what that says about us, the general users. I think they do amazingly well - especially considering how they are so often treated. (And before anyone asks; I've been warned LOTS of times myself; it's no that I have never copped a warn or anything. And one I did think was unjust - but it could have been argued either way - and in those cases, the mod wins. They have to.)

*Nods*

Yeah, overall they do a good job, as I said, the best they can.

 

It isn't as if they aren't asked to make some hard calls, sometimes.

While I can disagree with them, sometimes, bottom line I respect and appreciate them for the job they do.

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1 hour ago, osmarks said:

They did interpret it differently to each other, and I think there were definitely some saying "the existing rules are fine".

The mods are human too?  and just like the rest of us had to wait for TJ's official ruling on any changes made, thus forcing them to best guess how a given scenario should be dealt with.   The mods had very limited resources for dealing with the trading hub.  No way to post rules or changes there themselves, no way to contact users to either warn them about misuse or even tell them why they were banned and then getting attacked here on the forums for trying to do their jobs on top of it. 

 

Not liking how rule breaking, however unintentional, is being handled does not excuse MORE rule breaking for the sake of spite. 

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Our mods are HUMAN ? Who knew ? :lol: I am told that even TJ has some human genes....

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I, and the other mods, appreciate the support. I speak for myself when I say, I wouldn't do this if I did not love the community, and the site. I made a lot of friends here. We don't get paid to moderate, so any and all of our work is done in our free time. I'm a cook in a busy restaurant, taking less hours  a short while I "baby sit" my mother who had knee replacement surgery.  Summer is our slower period -  from here on in we are heading into hell (Christmas / holiday season)

 

There were aspects of the trade report system I did not understand - primarily, I thought users, when blocked, were still able to trade, but not use the want box (that was the logical action in my mind.I still would prefer it that way). That might have come across in my earlier posts when I thought blank wants were likely those who were banned.

 

We're only human -  although I consider myself Cybertronian :P

 

A have box would make sense - it could make it tidier with a small have description, a small want outline. And something that would help either accidental declines or worse, accidental accepts.

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46 minutes ago, Starscream said:

There were aspects of the trade report system I did not understand - primarily, I thought users, when blocked, were still able to trade, but not use the want box (that was the logical action in my mind.I still would prefer it that way). That might have come across in my earlier posts when I thought blank wants were likely those who were banned.

 

Wait, so they're straight-up banned from using the function?

 

Personally I think they should just be banned from using the "Want" box. Lord knows the "Want" box is the only semi-method of communication. There should be no harm in letting them put eggs up without a "want."

 

Would be nice to have a specific "Have" box instead of making the "Want" larger.

So I can search for people who have "2g gold" and not get people who want that.

 

Pagination is nice though. So thanks for that.

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I need to apologize since I was harsh earlier. I know the mods are trying to do the best they can and I know they're only human (except Starscream lol). I would really think it would be best for users to see why they were banned from the hub instead of just having the message of "you were banned". Something like "you were banned for reason A" because like I said before, not everyone is going to visit the forums. jmho

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To be honest, I think a lot of the mistrust in TJ and the moderators stems from Sock leaving. Sock clearly indicated that TJ wasn't listening/was being unhelpful and that was a major reason why they left - and I, personally, always felt as though Sock would go against TJ if need be, if he was being unfair to the community. I always thought Sock was very balanced and fair.

 

While I appreciate all the hard work our moderators put in, it feels less like they're here for us and more like they're here for TJ... but TJ isn't telling them what they're here for. The lack of communication and clear guidelines is distinct and quite jarring. Human or not, if two moderators can look at the same situation and come out with vastly different answers (or "I'm not sure...") the rules are not clear enough.

 

tl;dr Sock spoiled me with the idea that we could have mods who would balance our side and TJ's instead of just feeling like they were working for TJ but TJ gave them no rule book or instructions just "carry out my will, that's all, just do that. I'm not going to tell you what my will is though until the situation is already weeks old. Months, maybe!"

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1 hour ago, Dalek Raptor said:

I need to apologize since I was harsh earlier. I know the mods are trying to do the best they can and I know they're only human (except Starscream lol). I would really think it would be best for users to see why they were banned from the hub instead of just having the message of "you were banned". Something like "you were banned for reason A" because like I said before, not everyone is going to visit the forums. jmho

its okay, we all get our moments.

 

That would be preferential to what it is now - its what I would like to see. I was contacting a user knew who had been banned just after the update, to find out what they can see or tell me.  I don't know what a ban looks like in the hub. Mods cannot really discuss what we talk about among ourselves, but believe me we would like to see the hub a little less... cryptic. But, as others have mentioned, we are limited in our powers.  I try not to come off as being a jerk - but I know I do, but I will stand by a decision made, until the powers that be tell me I was out of line (or could have handled it differently). (Then I will sheepishly slink under a boulder - but then I stand corrected)

 

Anyhow... I need to jet to feed my new cat.

 

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This is from Themod444 (known as Miserable Pile of Secrets on the forums) ban message it doesn't say why she was banned other than 'misuse' and the fact she broke the 'unwritten rules' of the want box and she doesn't know which one of her trades resulted in her ban (and it still has to be lifted unless you account that it hasn't hit the 24 hour mark). So having a specific message as to why she was banned like 'not being clear on what you want' or 'you mentioned another user'; 'you mentioned the forums' in anyway would be extremely helpful @Starscream if this helps in anyway

Edited by Dalek Raptor

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7 minutes ago, Dalek Raptor said:

This is from Themod444 (known as Miserable Pile of Secrets on the forums) ban message it doesn't say why she was banned other than 'misuse' and the fact she broke the 'unwritten rules' of the want box and she doesn't know which one of her trades resulted in her ban (and it still has to be lifted unless you account that it hasn't hit the 24 hour mark). So having a specific message as to why she was banned like 'not being clear on what you want' or 'you mentioned another user'; 'you mentioned the forums' in anyway would be extremely helpful @Starscream if this helps in anyway

Have her PM me should it not be lifted by tomorrow  -  the 30th, and I'll see what bugs are crawling around.

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I'll chime in (yet again) to support a separate 'Have' box! Please? Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top? Or, at the very least, lengthen the character-limit in the Want box. Right now it's pretty impossible to put *both* Haves and Wants in that box unless each is literally like only a couple words. My current example, this is the Want text in the last few trades I've made:

 

Quote

Really messy-lineaged Lacula, Leodon, or Melismor (NO lines with Uggly (Frill) or Hammai (Stripe))

 

That is 2 characters from the limit as-is, no room at all for any sort of 'have' explanation. I could cut the first part down to something like 'Messy-lined', but that still leaves only 12 characters for a 'Have' description (and I prefer to keep the 'really' since many people's definition of 'messy' is too clean for my tastes). If I cut the 'no' parentheses down to just mentioning Hammai, that will give a little more room, but still not enough for any sort of adequate 'have' description.

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@Starscream this is a bit late but Mis said she was freed up a few hours ago

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9 hours ago, Alrexwolf said:

To be honest, I think a lot of the mistrust in TJ and the moderators stems from Sock leaving. Sock clearly indicated that TJ wasn't listening/was being unhelpful and that was a major reason why they left - and I, personally, always felt as though Sock would go against TJ if need be, if he was being unfair to the community. I always thought Sock was very balanced and fair.

 

While I appreciate all the hard work our moderators put in, it feels less like they're here for us and more like they're here for TJ... but TJ isn't telling them what they're here for. The lack of communication and clear guidelines is distinct and quite jarring. Human or not, if two moderators can look at the same situation and come out with vastly different answers (or "I'm not sure...") the rules are not clear enough.

 

tl;dr Sock spoiled me with the idea that we could have mods who would balance our side and TJ's instead of just feeling like they were working for TJ but TJ gave them no rule book or instructions just "carry out my will, that's all, just do that. I'm not going to tell you what my will is though until the situation is already weeks old. Months, maybe!"

 

I am certain sure that we still have mods who will go up against TJ if it's needed. But yes, I too miss Sock desperately.

 

8 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I'll chime in (yet again) to support a separate 'Have' box! Please? Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top? Or, at the very least, lengthen the character-limit in the Want box. Right now it's pretty impossible to put *both* Haves and Wants in that box unless each is literally like only a couple words. My current example, this is the Want text in the last few trades I've made:

 

That is 2 characters from the limit as-is, no room at all for any sort of 'have' explanation. I could cut the first part down to something like 'Messy-lined', but that still leaves only 12 characters for a 'Have' description (and I prefer to keep the 'really' since many people's definition of 'messy' is too clean for my tastes). If I cut the 'no' parentheses down to just mentioning Hammai, that will give a little more room, but still not enough for any sort of adequate 'have' description.

 

I do agree with this. A have box and a want box would make life a lot easier - I've look ed at one or two trades that said something like ""2g purebred. Want blusang" - and what they WANTED was a 2 g blusang; what they offered was not 2 gen at all. One single box does lead to confusion.

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10 hours ago, Alrexwolf said:

While I appreciate all the hard work our moderators put in, it feels less like they're here for us and more like they're here for TJ... but TJ isn't telling them what they're here for. The lack of communication and clear guidelines is distinct and quite jarring. Human or not, if two moderators can look at the same situation and come out with vastly different answers (or "I'm not sure...") the rules are not clear enough.

This is so very true. :( Which is probably why this topic became so hot so very quickly. At least threads like this one don't get shut down nowadays with an explanation like, "The rules are clear enough. If you don't understand why this topic has been closed, contact a moderator."

 

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I'm happy for the improvements and addition of some of the rules here, I'd still feel better if everyone got to have a clean slate with the update. Unless you knew with 100% certainty that the Hub was getting updated this release and not in, say, eight months, nobody but TJ had a timeline for how long it would take to get the rules cleared. And until then, people were getting permabanned for the "invisible rules". Everyone keeps saying it was a miniscule amount or just 1% of the player base...but 1% is a lot of people.

 

I'm just glad everything was cleared up and at least these permabans were admitted to IMMEDIATELY this time rather than TJ and the mods beating around the bush for two months until enough people complained to finally admit "oh yeah, there are more rules and there are bans and they are permanent, RIP you". Because that was annoying to watch.

 

14 hours ago, Starscream said:

There were aspects of the trade report system I did not understand - primarily, I thought users, when blocked, were still able to trade, but not use the want box (that was the logical action in my mind.I still would prefer it that way). That might have come across in my earlier posts when I thought blank wants were likely those who were banned.

 

If you're banned...why would you still be able to trade? That kinda defeats the purpose of a ban. I'm not really sure where this line of thinking comes from. That's like (to use HeatherMarie's shoplifting example) banning you from using the shopping carts but still letting you buy stuff from the store. See, that's what scared me a lot before, that TJ didn't seem willing to tell anyone (not even his own mods) what was going on so it felt like people's fears with the bannings were being dismissed as drama when...it wasn't. I'll agree that I'd much rather the guys currently permabanned were just banned from the Want box rather than from the entirety of the Hub, though.

 

Using the "a fix is coming" argument only really works if you knew the fix was coming quickly. But unless you're secretly TJ, I seriously doubt anyone knew when the update was going to drop. I'm happy that it dropped as soon as it did but until then, the ban hammer was still dropping on people and I doubt anybody was okay with innocent people losing their trade abilities for who knows how long, for who knows what reason, because of unclear rules that were being enforced as if they were clear. Some things on DC can take a very long time to be attended to, if they ever do at all (though I doubt TJ would've left the Hub as-is with how explosive this place got), so of course people were worried that this could be one of those this-will-take-months-to-happen scenarios.

 

I hope a change will come eventually for the currently permabanned...but judging from the mindset here, I'll just say RIP to them now.

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