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At this point, from what I'm getting, the mods being most vocal here in this thread aren't even the mods FOR this section of the forum. That's why the "invisible rules" have not been pinned. Because apparently they cannot do that here. So if anyone can locate the actual mods for this place (because apparently some public mod list is gone now, according to a few people I've asked), can you please tell them to come do that? Because we seriously need that. Nobody is wading through 52 pages of useless info to find the maybe one or two pages worth of info that can prevent a ban from occurring. You know, the IMPORTANT INFORMATION.

 

Also, totally siding with @pinkgothic here. I'm loving the whole "if you can't understand one sentence then you must be stupid" vibe coming from this place. Really helps other users feel like their voices matter. I feel so enlightened by all the hate here. I hope you can understand sarcasm too.

Edited by animatedrose

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55 minutes ago, olympe said:

 

Very much not true. Just yesterday, I PMed a long-time player who used to be very active on these boards in order to warn them against asking for PMs in the trading hub. And why did they do that? Because they had no idea that the forum trading rules didn't apply to the trading hub.  

 

I am legitimately confused why anyone would think that forum rules apply to the trading hub? The forum is a completely separate site! There are *tons* of stuff you can do on the forums that you can't do on the game itself, including requesting new dragons and talking directly to people and so much more. That really makes no sense at all to me, to just assume that rules on a completely separate site (that requires it's own log-in and has it's own posted rules) would apply to the hub. 

 

As far as the TOS being out-of-date because of the Market... One out of date thing does not justify ignoring the entire TOS. Yes, it should be updated to get rid of the 'buying is forbidden' because that's obviously no longer true, but that does not at all mean that suddenly everything in the TOS should just be ignored or argued against. There is no reason for anyone to believe that one small paragraph being out of date must mean that the entire TOS is no longer relevant. 

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1 hour ago, olympe said:

@Kaini, @Starscream,@TJ09@purpledragonclaw: Can one of you please pin the post I re-quoted? It's the most comprehensive summary of all the rules for the trading hub that we have thus far, and it's a shame that people still have to search this whole thread for something like this.

 

 

I did ask a mod for this by PM last night. Just saying.

 

28 minutes ago, animatedrose said:

At this point, from what I'm getting, the mods being most vocal here in this thread aren't even the mods FOR this section of the forum. That's why the "invisible rules" have not been pinned. Because apparently they cannot do that here. So if anyone can locate the actual mods for this place (because apparently some public mod list is gone now, according to a few people I've asked), can you please tell them to come do that? Because we seriously need that. Nobody is wading through 52 pages of useless info to find the maybe one or two pages worth of info that can prevent a ban from occurring. You know, the IMPORTANT INFORMATION.

 

Also, totally siding with @pinkgothic here. I'm loving the whole "if you can't understand one sentence then you must be stupid" vibe coming from this place. Really helps other users feel like their voices matter. I feel so enlightened by all the hate here. I hope you can understand sarcasm too.

 

Sorry for any offence caused.  ☮️  Clearly I do have the same brain dictionary as the mods. Lucky me, I guess.

 

But the mods here are the ones who are working on the hub -  what they cannot do is edit the actual game site - the DC pages rather than the forum pages - in any way - and fair enough - a mod from here doing something in a site that is FULL of coding could bring the game down. We have to wait for TJ to do it.

 

 

4 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I am legitimately confused why anyone would think that forum rules apply to the trading hub? The forum is a completely separate site! There are *tons* of stuff you can do on the forums that you can't do on the game itself, including requesting new dragons and talking directly to people and so much more. That really makes no sense at all to me, to just assume that rules on a completely separate site (that requires it's own log-in and has it's own posted rules) would apply to the hub. 

 

As far as the TOS being out-of-date because of the Market... One out of date thing does not justify ignoring the entire TOS. Yes, it should be updated to get rid of the 'buying is forbidden' because that's obviously no longer true, but that does not at all mean that suddenly everything in the TOS should just be ignored or argued against. There is no reason for anyone to believe that one small paragraph being out of date must mean that the entire TOS is no longer relevant. 

 

I do agree with HeatherMarie, though.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I am legitimately confused why anyone would think that forum rules apply to the trading hub? The forum is a completely separate site! There are *tons* of stuff you can do on the forums that you can't do on the game itself, including requesting new dragons and talking directly to people and so much more. That really makes no sense at all to me, to just assume that rules on a completely separate site (that requires it's own log-in and has it's own posted rules) would apply to the hub.

The things you can and cannot do never had anything to do with site rules vs. forum rules, just with different options both on the main site and here. However, with the trading hub, there's suddenly a lot of overlap: Trading. So, please tell my why someone would legitimately think that what has always been perfectly fine on the forums would suddenly be a ban-worthy offense on the main site?

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1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

I am legitimately confused why anyone would think that forum rules apply to the trading hub? The forum is a completely separate site!

It's literally linked on every single page. It's not some kind of fansite that happens to be popular; it's the only authorized and official communications allowed anywhere onsite. Even TJ expects people to be able to visit and read the forums; that the Recent News column links to it for every announcement and the ToS states "All changes to this page (as well as the purchasing policies) will be announced via the Dragon Cave Forum." If it's to be blacklisted from even being mentioned while being prominently linked on the Trading Hub/the site itself it has to be explicitly said. Using the forums as an approved extension of the main site is only natural, given that TJ and the mods do so themselves and expect players punished for any "misdeeds" to do so as well.

 

Edit: if people do not want to use the forums, they should not have to. The News area is info enough. If people do want to use the forums because they've used it all their DC life they should either be allowed to, or told they cannot, not get punished without warning for attempting to integrate two sides of one game.

Edited by Shadowdrake

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Okay, yes, one (possibly two depending on how fast and loose you're willing to play with wording) mistake in the ToS does not make it invalid. It shows, though, that there are problems with it and that it hasn't been updated for new features. Maybe now, in the Age of the Trade Hub, it needs reworking.

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For now, I just mostly want whichever mods have the ability to pin these rules here in this thread, to please pin these rules to the top of this thread. So anyone banned can pop in here and see the rules right away, without needing to wade through 52 pages, most of which is unhelpful to them.

 

Now I just feel doubly awful for non-English speakers. If those of us who know English as a primary language are having difficulty understanding these rules, I don't want to think about what the non-English guys are attempting to comprehend. :(

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4 hours ago, olympe said:

@Kaini, @Starscream,@TJ09@purpledragonclaw: Can one of you please pin the post I re-quoted? It's the most comprehensive summary of all the rules for the trading hub that we have thus far, and it's a shame that people still have to search this whole thread for something like this.

 

 

I can't do so myself, but I did forward a note to PDC.

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Thanks. I simply tagged you (and Kaini) because you two are the most active mods in this thread, and PDC because they are a global mod (just in case).

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If the forum and the site are supposed to be two separate entities, where rules of one don't apply to the other, then WHY is there a link to forum tab right at top of site page, next to dragons, cave, etc.?  And why, when you go to cave, are there links straight to the newest news threads to the forum?  If they are really two separate entities, then take anything linking to forum away from the site.  Otherwise, it is easy to assume that things allowed in forum would have been ok in hub.  

Edited by 49ER

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3 hours ago, olympe said:

The things you can and cannot do never had anything to do with site rules vs. forum rules, just with different options both on the main site and here. However, with the trading hub, there's suddenly a lot of overlap: Trading. So, please tell my why someone would legitimately think that what has always been perfectly fine on the forums would suddenly be a ban-worthy offense on the main site?

 

Because the forums are not the same as the main site? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I honestly don't understand. The forums and the game-site are different. The game has it's own help section, it's own TOS, linked right there on every single page. Why someone would assume that the rules for a totally separate forum would apply in-game is something I honestly just don't get.

 

Sure, there are links to the forum on the game site, but it is not an integrated thing. I mean, technically there are also links to Paypal (on the Ad-Subscription page) as well as Facebook/etc links if you choose to show them in account settings. Having a *link* to the forum does not in any way mean that the forum's rules apply to the game, and I honestly don't get why they would. It's a different site. The two sites have different log-ins, you need separate accounts, they have their very own rules posted, so why on earth would anyone just assume that a rule on one site is the same on the other? Rules, guidelines, what is and isn't okay to do, however you want to phrase it, it's not the same on the two different sites. 

 

Anyways, I think my question got buried among all the debate, so I'll ask again: Mods, @purpledragonclaw, @Kaini, someone, is something like this appropriate for the Want box? 'Messy Ridgewing or Dorsal (messies only, will decline CBs)'  Is saying 'will decline' a no-no because it's not *technically* a 'want', even though it does help people understand what to offer (and what not to offer)? (Asking after way too many CB offers omg....)

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2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I am legitimately confused why anyone would think that forum rules apply to the trading hub? The forum is a completely separate site! There are *tons* of stuff you can do on the forums that you can't do on the game itself, including requesting new dragons and talking directly to people and so much more. That really makes no sense at all to me, to just assume that rules on a completely separate site (that requires it's own log-in and has it's own posted rules) would apply to the hub. 

 

As far as the TOS being out-of-date because of the Market... One out of date thing does not justify ignoring the entire TOS. Yes, it should be updated to get rid of the 'buying is forbidden' because that's obviously no longer true, but that does not at all mean that suddenly everything in the TOS should just be ignored or argued against. There is no reason for anyone to believe that one small paragraph being out of date must mean that the entire TOS is no longer relevant. 

 

I'm the player mentioned here, so maybe I can shed some light in regard to some of the confusion I had.

 

I had ten hatchlings that I wanted to offer. They were all hatched and on my scroll. They are all available to be traded.  Here's where the issue is -

 

There's nothing in the rules that prevents me from trading them all to one person for one egg. But because a Magi can only transport four hacthlings at a time, it can't be made via one transaction. On the forum, I offered all ten in a trade post and told interested parties to PM me.  In order to make that offer on the trade hub I offered four of the eggs, said I had ten in total and directed people to my forum profile.

 

The confusion comes in that it wasn't an IOU situation in that I didn't have what it was offering. And the limits of what one Magi can carry have generally been seen as just that - their limit, and not the idea that a trade can't be made where you need more than one to carry it out. So it was a situation that fell outside of the direct method of teleporting, but not one that fell out of the accepted scope of permissible trade, and "not official" and "not allowed" aren't the same thing and it can be confusing to expect people to know where all the exceptions are.

 

Olympe was kind enough to take some time to let me know that I might be outside of the rules for the trade hub and I really appreciate that because I wouldn't have thought to come here for a list of rules. I would have assumed enforced rules were posted and the things discussed here potential changes.

 

I think part of it is that trade has been here on the forum, and having the hub is fantastic, but going from one to the other, it's got to be expected that people are going to try to translate the trades so that what's offered here (which are more detailed offers) can be represented there. If that's something we don't want, that's fine but expecting people to intuitively divorce the two experiences is probably a bit much too ask, especially if it isn't being done pretty clearly.

 

I love the hub, and I think that it's normal for changes to come with growing pains and sorting outs, but if there are some things that people shouldn't be doing right now, something that said "The Trading Hub is a new and developing feature. Please observe the following guidelines which we will be revisiting and updating as fine tune things" with a link to the basic things we shouldn't do would be a nice thing to have.

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@skauble Oohhh thanks for the clarification! Personally I would love to see that 4-limit lifted, I think a lot of people have wanted that even before the hub. And in those cases it definitely would be nice to be able to somehow indicate that you have more you are willing to trade/offer.

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The forum and the site are run by the same people and same global moderators.  And ultimately it is all run by TJ.  It is not like the forum is an outside entity being run by a random user that people like to congregate to.  It is a part of the site, and the fact that it has direct links to it says so.  Maybe some people see it as different things, but a lot don't.  Please try and understand that.  

Secondly, I have seen things argued that is was never allowed on forum so why would it be allowed in hub?  You can't have it both ways.

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2 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

@skauble Oohhh thanks for the clarification! Personally I would love to see that 4-limit lifted, I think a lot of people have wanted that even before the hub. And in those cases it definitely would be nice to be able to somehow indicate that you have more you are willing to trade/offer.

Yeah, as far as general trade hub suggestions go I would love, love, love to be able to allow larger trade amounts and just use more magis - so sending 3 things would take 1 Magi, but sending 6 would take 2. I'd even be okay with a different dragon with a larger weight tolerance, a spinach-type power up for Magis, a feature or BSA where you can get the Magis to work together, make a longer cooldown period, etc. That and accepting only part of offers would thin out a lot of what I need to communicate during trades.

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I want to reiterate this: The game has a page of rules. The forum has a page of rules. The Trading Subforum has a page of rules. The forum thread for the IRC has an absolute wall-of-text of rules, not to mention the one that comes up in the irc itself as soon as you enter if I recall right. The Dragon Description info has a page of rules for a 1000 character paragraph hardly anyone sees. Why is the trade hub considered exempt? How is "wants only or you get punished" in any way, shape or form adequate when there's a huge list of exceptions to these "wants"? Would it be so terrible to reiterate "No posting other people's dragons" when it has never been an issue or even a possibility for many players to remember?

 

 

Edit to add: it's "common sense" to avoid posting NSFW when the playerbase has minors. That doesn't mean you neglect to provide rules for it!

Edited by Shadowdrake

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57 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Because the forums are not the same as the main site? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I honestly don't understand. The forums and the game-site are different. The game has it's own help section, it's own TOS, linked right there on every single page. Why someone would assume that the rules for a totally separate forum would apply in-game is something I honestly just don't get.

 

Sure, there are links to the forum on the game site, but it is not an integrated thing. I mean, technically there are also links to Paypal (on the Ad-Subscription page) as well as Facebook/etc links if you choose to show them in account settings. Having a *link* to the forum does not in any way mean that the forum's rules apply to the game, and I honestly don't get why they would. It's a different site. The two sites have different log-ins, you need separate accounts, they have their very own rules posted, so why on earth would anyone just assume that a rule on one site is the same on the other? Rules, guidelines, what is and isn't okay to do, however you want to phrase it, it's not the same on the two different sites. 

 

Still, DCF is very much part of DC for a lot of users, and for the following reasons.

  • A big, fat link to these forums on the DC site, on each individual page. Right beside the link to the DC help section.
  • Same admin, same mods (see descriptions being approved or trading hub bans being performed by DCF mods, apparently).
  • DCF is a forum for just this one game, no others. Unless, of course, you visit the off-topic section. Which is called off-topic for a reason.
  • News and updates being to DC posted exclusively here (any maybe on DC's facebook/twitter page? I wouldn't know). The most recent News threads on DCF are even linked on the main site.
  • If you see evidence of rule breaking on DC, you're supposed to contact a mod on DCF.
  • Most of the rules on DC are based on what you can do on DC itself and nowhere else (save for not selling dragons), while most of the rules on DCF are general forum rules ("netiquette"). Some DCF rules, however, do apply to DC itself, like "not posting someone else's growing things", and are usually in accord with DC rules.
  • Same artwork (background...
  • Donation meter for DC on DCF and nowhere lese (news section, pinned topic)

Neither of these things can be said about any other site, be it facebook, twitter, paypal or any other. (You actually have to opt in in order to see the links to DC's social media sites - which I just now figured out.) Now, we have some big overlap with the old trading section on DCF and the trading hub on DC. And, remember, DC and DCF rules have always been in accord. But now, they suddenly aren't, for some reason.

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The forum /=/ the main site, and it never has.

 

It makes sense TJ and mods would deal with both, but they've always been very separate. 

 

If you get a warning on the forum, it in no way affects your ability to play the main site. Your behavior on the forum in no way affects your play on the main site, even if you're banned from the forum. Same goes the other way around. 

 

They've always been separate in that way. 

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Ok so now after all these years, I am seeing this for the first time.  But for all the reasons Olympe outlined above, I would hope you could SEE why people would think they are interwoven?

 

And by the way, that makes it all the more reason for the rules to trade hub not to be posted on forum, even if it is pinned, but put it on site!  it really seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too, and if we are confused, then we are being either stupid or deliberately obtuse

Edited by 49ER

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4 minutes ago, Kaini said:

The forum /=/ the main site, and it never has.

 

It makes sense TJ and mods would deal with both, but they've always been very separate. 

If forum =/= main site, then forum mods =/= main site mods. That's what makes sense. And, as long as there are no explicit rules stated on the main site itself, the next best guess we have as users is to go by DCF rules. Because, really, what other resources are there? And there's a lot of rules that are less than clear, but acceptable on DCF. (Linking to a wishlist or group on DC/asking for PM to finalize a trade/asking for resubmitting offers/bumping...)

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4 minutes ago, olympe said:

If forum =/= main site, then forum mods =/= main site mods. That's what makes sense.

 

We are capable of handling both while keeping them separate. 

 

 

This is why the rules ARE being updated on the site. They seemed to be clear enough, and were not. So they're getting updated.

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Just for clarity's sake, is the suggestion at hand that we should be able to link to the forum/pm in the trade hub, or is it just that we can't link our forum/pm and we should state that outright?

 

ETA: Just saw Kaini say the rules are being updated, so that answers my question here. I'm still out of the loop with this thread.

Edited by skauble

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I've only used the trading hub for when I wanted to make quick and simple trades so it has worked out well for me. However, after reading this thread, I've realized that a lot of stuff that I thought was fine is actually bannable. I get that putting song lyrics isn't acceptable, but I wouldn't have thought that putting your forum username for PMs would be a problem, especially as it is apparently fine to have a dragon on your scroll named "My Forum Name is X". I also see no problem with things like asking for offers from newbies only. Also the fact that we are allowed to put "haves" in the wants box makes it seem like the rules are less strict than I guess they actually are.

 

The current description of the rules (and the allowance of "haves") give the impression to me of a very loosely regulated market, which is consistent with things like the previous Holiday events where we could send pretty much whatever we wanted in our cards. If there are actual rules that are being enforced then they definitely need to be spelled out much more specifically, because that's not the message that I got from "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for."

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2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Because the forums are not the same as the main site? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I honestly don't understand. The forums and the game-site are different. The game has it's own help section, it's own TOS, linked right there on every single page. Why someone would assume that the rules for a totally separate forum would apply in-game is something I honestly just don't get.

 

Sure, there are links to the forum on the game site, but it is not an integrated thing. I mean, technically there are also links to Paypal (on the Ad-Subscription page) as well as Facebook/etc links if you choose to show them in account settings. Having a *link* to the forum does not in any way mean that the forum's rules apply to the game, and I honestly don't get why they would. It's a different site. The two sites have different log-ins, you need separate accounts, they have their very own rules posted, so why on earth would anyone just assume that a rule on one site is the same on the other? Rules, guidelines, what is and isn't okay to do, however you want to phrase it, it's not the same on the two different sites. 

 

Anyways, I think my question got buried among all the debate, so I'll ask again: Mods, @purpledragonclaw, @Kaini, someone, is something like this appropriate for the Want box? 'Messy Ridgewing or Dorsal (messies only, will decline CBs)'  Is saying 'will decline' a no-no because it's not *technically* a 'want', even though it does help people understand what to offer (and what not to offer)? (Asking after way too many CB offers omg....)

 

I think that's appropriate for the Wants box, it states what will be accepted and what will be declined.

 

I also recommended Starscream's post so it's easier to find.

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