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1 minute ago, Imzadi said:

TJ has  already  said said it would not be permanent., iirc, and would be in stages, and retroactive.

That makes it sound like sitting comfortably on our hands and offer condolences to everyone we see who is about to get banned is not the right approach, and the correct approach is to hire a temporary mercenary soul who doesn't play DC much and would not be hindered by a temporary ban.  Whose 20 teleport wants, upon being deployed in the way of maximum ruthless efficiency, should be used to outline all the rules and then autobumped to ensure that, in the meantime, everyone knows what the rules are. Sure, we can't see any other trades, but even though pagination doesn't really exist at this point, we can search by breed anyway. 

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The person who volunteers to be banned could even link a list of rules to tinyurl or something and bump that. 

 

It would be like a stickied post, but really unofficial. Or maybe a mod could do it. 

Edited by DarkEternity

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2 hours ago, LibbyLishly said:

I completely agree. There absolutely should be a full moratorium on bans from the Trading Hub until TJ posts clear rules ON-SITE. People are being banned for offenses that they had NO way to know were offenses and that is, quite frankly, disgusting.

 

 

The rules ARE there. Right there. On the site.

 

Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for.

Warning: Misuse of this text may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades.

 

Right there. With a warning that misuse may result in loss of ability to create public trades. 

 

You understand however TJ changes the wording to be slightly more 'clear' the essence of that isn't going to change. 

 

And what Ice did directly violated the TOS. So it cannot be argued they had NO way of knowing.

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So are the rules are no longer getting updated?

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17 minutes ago, Kaini said:

 

 

The rules ARE there. Right there. On the site.

 

Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for.

Warning: Misuse of this text may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades.

 

Right there. With a warning that misuse may result in loss of ability to create public trades. 

 

You understand however TJ changes the wording to be slightly more 'clear' the essence of that isn't going to change. 

 

And what Ice did directly violated the TOS. So it cannot be argued they had NO way of knowing.

*Sighs* You DO NOT understand then, this could mean anything. HOWEVER THERE IS NOTHING SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT PUT YOUR FORUM OR SAY THAT YOU CAN BE CONTACTED ON THE FORUMS, THE RULES FOR THAT ARE STRICTLY ON HERE AND PEOPLE STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH 50 PAGES TO ACTUALLY FIND IT. 

 

edit: going to say this right now, I'm highly frustrated with this whole thing 

Edited by Dalek Raptor

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5 minutes ago, DarkEternity said:

So are the rules are no longer getting updated?

 

No, they are. That isn't what I said, sorry if that was unclear. 

 

But the essence of the 'rules' isn't going to be radically different. It will still mean 'anything that isn't a want is a no'. TJ said that in his post.

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1 minute ago, Dalek Raptor said:

HOWEVER THERE IS NOTHING SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT PUT YOUR FORUM OR SAY THAT YOU CAN BE CONTACTED ON THE FORUMS, THE RULES FOR THAT ARE STRICTLY ON HERE AND PEOPLE STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH 50 PAGES TO ACTUALLY FIND IT. 

THIS.

 

There is NO WAY aside from digging through PAGES of obscure forum threads that anyone not completely inoculated into forum culture - which is a tiny, tiny little clique - to know what the heck THIS FORUM means by "misuse" ON SITE. Even the ToS talking about "bothering another user" do not automatically mean to the average player that they can't so much as MENTION the name of a user/the code of an egg, since the user still has to WILLINGLY reach out to be interacted with. That is understandable only to someone who is a regular forum user.

 

But I don't know why I'm bothering. Plenty of other posters have tried to explain why the rules thus far are UNCLEAR and the bans are UNFAIR, but we're just lowly non-mods, so who cares?

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1 hour ago, Dalek Raptor said:

*Sighs* You DO NOT understand then, this could mean anything. HOWEVER THERE IS NOTHING SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT PUT YOUR FORUM OR SAY THAT YOU CAN BE CONTACTED ON THE FORUMS, THE RULES FOR THAT ARE STRICTLY ON HERE AND PEOPLE STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH 50 PAGES TO ACTUALLY FIND IT. 

 

Typing in all caps and bold won't make your post any more seen. It just comes off aggressive to other users.

 

 

@LibbyLishly TJ has heard it, and will be making improvements to the wording of the rules. In the meantime, it is just a seemingly small percentage of users that feel the rules are 'unclear' and 'unfair.' 99% of the many many trades made on the hub go through uneventfully, and 99% of people seem to be following the rules just fine. DC has thousands and thousands of users and I can count the number that have lost their trading ability on my hands, maybe one hand.

 

And, no one is being ignored. We do legitimately want to deal with concerns that are arising.

 

What will happen (Disclaimer, I can't 100% guarantee these things because in the end it's all TJ, but here's what he's posted here about):

 

- Updates to the wording of the rules

- 'Bans' becoming timed instead of insta-permanent

 

What else would you suggest? These are happening, as far as I know (?), the man just has a full time life outside of DC. 

 

And as mods we've honestly been extremely conservative when it comes to issuing bans. Only repeated offenses and offenses that were actively causing a problem that couldn't continue (such as repeatedly posting another user's dragon) have been done.

Edited by Kaini
Clarified, felt some wording could be better.

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so we can't put 'haves' or even 'h' in the message, just wants? i had no idea the rules (wherever they may be) were so restrictive. while i understand the message at the top of the trade hub teleport says to put 'wants' , it doesn't actually say you can't put in a 'have' as well. maybe it's just the way i read it. haven't had my coffee yet,, and i only glanced at the preceding couple of pages.

Edited by greycat

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Quote

Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for.

Warning: Misuse of this text may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades.

 

Meaning: "Say what offers you want. If you use this box wrong you'll be punished." I was unaware this could be translated to

 

4 hours ago, Starscream said:

 

Spoiler

 

So, things that can get you banned / are not okay:  in a nut shell, anything is not a trade want, should not be in the want box.

  • Obvious misuse like posting song lyrics or asking for pagination in the "Want" box. (For completion's sake. :P Though we really do want pagination!)(So do I)
  • Asking for a re-offer, regardless how it's worded (even "Want: 3G gold. The offer I accidentally rejected was perfect!"). The want box is not to be used as a shot box. So this is correct.
  • Referring to another specific user in any way. Also includes PM (Me, you, them, kumquat).
  • Referring to any link whatsoever (even dragon groups). for now, dragon groups should be avoided - we aren't banning those though.
  • Referring to any specific dragon code whatsoever, for any purpose, except if you own the code, then it's okay. As I mentioned later in the thread that it is against the TOS:

Interactions with other users

All interactions with other users must be willful. Bothering other users to return abandoned eggs or posting the eggs, hatchlings, or adult dragons without a user's permission are prohibited.

Things I'm fuzzy on - AFAIK these have seen a lot of discussion, but I don't know if there was a statement made either way:

  • Asking for the dragons one is trading to be treated in any particular way.

This is essentially is unenforceable - also - once an egg or hatchling is off your scroll, it is no longer yours and you have no say about what the other user does with it. This can fall under the interaction with users in the TOS. You cannot force your will onto another user. Also, If we allowed for this to be posted on the trading thread, then chances are it could cause bad blood or feelings should a user take the egg being offered and do as they please with it. People then start to want to post black lists declaring a user a bad person. (I don't care if you have a personal black list on your desk - you don't have to trade with who ever you dont want) But specific requests, should perhaps be kept to the forum threads -  where it is equally unenforceable. I am also contacting TJ regarding this.

  • Asking for "too specific things". (Cropped up a few times in the context of codes - did we ever get confirmation whether asking for a 2G from a specific Prize was or was not against the rules? This suggests it's not, but I've lost track what the latest statement is.)

If your specifying a code that does not belong to you, then you are being too specific. In this situation, chances are the person who has that prize, also has a list and is going to fulfill that list. Its best to contact the prize owner (only if they indicate that they are willing to take requests) You could say you want a G2 Prize from lets say, Gold shimmer and a copper, and hope that what you are offering is what the owner of that gold shimmer wants (and if they have the luck) I posted a specified list of wants for my prize, just recently, but I mostly got everything else offered (and repeatedly) so I cancelled the trade.

 

Things that won't get you banned (listed here for reference, in case someone comes and says "but what about _____?", independent of whether or not I have any opinion about these - things I know that have cropped up in the discussion so far, basically):

  • Haves, at least until a Have field is implemented. Correct
  • Misrepresenting what you're offering (including using the word "free" for any constellation, or calling something CB that isn't). (The latter one is a pain, but at least you can check and see for yourself before you place an offer.)
  • Reposting your trade(s) repeatedly, with a high enough frequency to dominate the first (and currently only) non-filtered trade page. (We need pagination or a timer - the former mostly)
  • Saying you don't know if you're willing to trade the egg, but for people to offer. (On the bright side, they are being honest - its best not to invest your trading power with those)
  •  

 

 

 

By the way, have you folks who keep saying the forums is a good substitute for complex trades actually tried having a trade solely in forums? Because there's a massive activity difference that can't be made up for with the "convenience" of a forum post. You can post your list of prizekins needed or the 20 cbs you need all you want, but it's meaningless if no one even checks the threads anymore. (And convenience is questionable.)

Edited by Shadowdrake

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Forum trading has always been pretty futile for me, and most of my trades are having CBs, wanting other CBs.  And since the trade hub came out I have almost completely stopped even trying to post or  trade on forum.  

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No, @HeatherMarie, there is no message telling you why you got banned. There is nothing but the ban. You just get banned and have to pray that a mod here in the forums may tell you why you were banned. No guarantee that they will until enough people explode over your case, though.

 

And yes, it has been confirmed to be a permaban. TJ has said he plans to change it but as of now, until TJ comes forward and lets us know that permabans for breaking "invisible rules" (because yes, these are invisible, unless you trawl through 50 pages because NOBODY WILL FREAKING PIN THESE RULES ALREADY) have been rescinded or changed, it is pretty much guaranteed that everyone banned is banned permanently right now.

 

Rather sad that even warning others about the rules is enough to be banned now. It's like the rules are meant to be invisible to screw as many people as possible. Crazy.

Edited by animatedrose

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The rule is against posting a warning in a teleport link in the hub.  I have not seen anyone actually do that.  It is not for pming somebody (providing they have a forum acct same name as scroll).  If they don't, then no way to tell them I'm afraid.

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It's just so frustrating because TJ himself has said that even some things that are against the rules (haves) are okay because he doesn't think it's bad but he just hasn't gotten around to adding a way to put that already.

 

like... come on, are you serious? if something is against the rules, it's against the rules. it's all or nothing. you can't just be like well x y z are exceptions because I say so and then get mad at people / ban people for taking similar liberties.

 

Honestly, we've already had direct scroll-to-scroll communication. Valentine's Card event where you could send to specific people. The trading hub allows direct communication, even if it's moddable. It sounds more like a cop out than a real thing... and if TJ really can't let us have direct contact (how do we have the forums then what the frick) then maybe he should think about contacting outside developers to give us something coherent we can actually use, even if it's off-site like a hatchery or EATW's was.

 

The trading on the forums is a joke because you have to hammer your dragon into some sub category where, even if people DO want the type of dragon you're offering (prizekin, metalfails, etc)... do you know how many things that encompasses and how many things people could actually be looking for. Just because something is a prizekin doesn't mean everyone will want it - people on that thread looking for tinsel prizekins won't look at or care about shimmerscale prizekins, etc. You can't make your own posts. You can't make a H: Gold Shimmerscale x Silver Kin thread, which would be super specific and right off the bat tell people what you have and let people who are looking for/interested in something like that find it instantly instead of going through dozens of pages of people who could have 6 types of dragons (3 tinsels / shimmers) x literally any combination on the planet. 

 

it's outdated and clunky and it quite frankly sucks. the trading forum would be so much better if we could make our own threads, and control them, even if it's only like... 1 thread per person at a time. I'd be way more willing to make a thread for my valuable dragons and their offspring and just have a big list there of what I want than having to struggle through making a post every week with the same content over and over again in threads where most people aren't even looking for what I have.

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Too bad we can't have the valentines cards year round to send a card saying someone is locked or you want to know if something was influenced a certain gender

 

Roses are red, violets are blue

I wanna accept ur offer, but lockage r u

Edited by 49ER

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6 hours ago, Kaini said:

In the meantime, it is just a seemingly small percentage of users that feel the rules are 'unclear' and 'unfair.' 99% of the many many trades made on the hub go through uneventfully, and 99% of people seem to be following the rules just fine. DC has thousands and thousands of users and I can count the number that have lost their trading ability on my hands, maybe one hand.

 

This is what I'm seeing as well. There is a very very tiny but *very* vocal group that have been banned and either didn't realize it was bannable or disagree with being banned. The vast majority of people using the hub have *not* been banned and have probably not had any problems whatsoever (as evidenced by just how many trades there are, how many different users are still posting trades, etc). I have seen *hundreds* of trades on the hub, often over a hundred *per day*, that are completely fine and successfully get traded and nothing eventful happens at all. I have personally participated in at *least* 100 trades through the hub with no issue at all. Out of the *thousands* of people who actively play this game, only a very very tiny group have been banned or had any issues with that. 

 

Yes, the rules should be clearer and on-site, for the benefit of people who don't understand. Yes, TJ has already said that's going to happen! He has also already said that bans will be in stages, and that will apply retroactively, so there is no reason at all to think that current bans will be permanent. If someone is so frustrated over the lack of on-site rules or so worried about possibly getting banned, they don't *have* to use the hub right now, they can wait until TJ implements these changes. But the vast majority of trades are going through with no issues at all, so it's really not like there is a mass-banning going on. 

 

 

Edited by HeatherMarie

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Yes, most people trade within the rules, sure; that doesn't make the rules and their current handling sane and adequate. If the numbers were bigger I would be far more worried.

 

Especially problematic is that many of the "rules" mentioned here by moderators can only be derived from creative misinterpretation of one very vague sentence beside the box and a 6-year-old T&C page which bans actual site features and which most people probably never read. I'm sure if you've already read the twisty chains of logic involved it's "obvious" to you but it really isn't. It should be the work of minutes - assuming a sanely designed site - to just stick a short list of extra rules in, to confirm what is actually allowed and what is not, but for whatever reason that has not occurred.

 

(thanks to TJ09 for making the T&C quite short though!)

Edited by osmarks

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9 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

They can't just choose not to unhide their scroll? That's their decision, and the only person who can immediately view them is the trader. If they offer and their scroll remains hidden they'll just get declined. Given that you expect people to check what traders are say they're offering there has to be some personal accountability here.

 

Not necessarily. (Say, a gold versus a golden wyvern, which has gold in the description, and both of which a new player may not have unlocked for the encyclopedia). And if you say they can check the wiki for that, that's asking them to check something offsite, which every other trade rule refuses to even consider.

 

When trading you only have to see the egg/hatchling offered (by trader or offerer.) Even when a scroll is hidden that growing thing is viewable. The ONLY reason to see a scroll is to see if you meet some "special condition" (newbies, no golds yet etc.) If the trader doesn't want to accept thing form a scroll they can;'t see - don't trade. Simples.

 

9 hours ago, LibbyLishly said:

I completely agree. There absolutely should be a full moratorium on bans from the Trading Hub until TJ posts clear rules ON-SITE. People are being banned for offenses that they had NO way to know were offenses and that is, quite frankly, disgusting.

 

There is actually. Showing someone else's code is against the ToS, and the info on the page is clear that it is WANTS ONLY. So posting "I accidentally declined" is NOT a want. I agree that banning should be very lightly done for now, but cookies and the like (seen more than once) and so on are perfectly legitimate instabans.

 

7 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

Okay, I'm not trying to stir the already bubbling pot, but if what Ice did to get banned was posting codes that don't belong to them, that IS completely against the ON-SITE rules. I'm not arguing that people should stay banned, that rules shouldn't be fleshed out and posted in the hub, whatever, but I am saying that it just doesn't fly to act like there was no possible way for anyone to know that what they were doing was against the rules. It says directly in the TOS on-site that posting other user's dragons without permission is against the rules. If people have forgotten what the TOS says, or never read it, that's on them. Not the hub's fault if you don't know the rules that *are* actually listed on-site.

 

THis, very much.

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19 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

There is a very very tiny but *very* vocal group that have been banned and either didn't realize it was bannable or disagree with being banned

I doubt it. The majority of us speaking out against invisible rules (and I doubt we're a minority: I can count the number of people concerned by the current state of the hub if you like) have not been banned and, now that we know, are unlikely to be banned. That does not mean we can't extrapolate how utterly useless a two-sentence rule is, considering it runs a whole system of interpersonal interactions. I personally have seen two people innocuously breaking said "rules" in a span of a few hours (not counting myself and the other good Samaritan publicly trying to warn people), one being a link to a forum wishlist and the other being yet another "x you're egglocked" message. 

 

 

btw if you get banned all your teleports are canceled and magis put on cooldown, including transfers. I know you all hate considering making things convenient for banned or could-be-banned folks but is canceling transfers intentional or otherwise necessary, tj?

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7 hours ago, Dalek Raptor said:

*Sighs* You DO NOT understand then, this could mean anything. HOWEVER THERE IS NOTHING SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT PUT YOUR FORUM OR SAY THAT YOU CAN BE CONTACTED ON THE FORUMS, THE RULES FOR THAT ARE STRICTLY ON HERE AND PEOPLE STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH 50 PAGES TO ACTUALLY FIND IT. 

 

edit: going to say this right now, I'm highly frustrated with this whole thing 

 

What part of "want" do people not get ?

 

6 hours ago, LibbyLishly said:

THIS.

 

There is NO WAY aside from digging through PAGES of obscure forum threads that anyone not completely inoculated into forum culture - which is a tiny, tiny little clique - to know what the heck THIS FORUM means by "misuse" ON SITE. Even the ToS talking about "bothering another user" do not automatically mean to the average player that they can't so much as MENTION the name of a user/the code of an egg, since the user still has to WILLINGLY reach out to be interacted with. That is understandable only to someone who is a regular forum user.

 

 

The ToC do say EXACTLY that:

 

Quote

 

Interactions with other users

All interactions with other users must be willful. Bothering other users to return abandoned eggs or posting the eggs, hatchlings, or adult dragons without a user's permission are prohibited

 

Posting a code is posting without the owner's permission.

 

6 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

 

By the way, have you folks who keep saying the forums is a good substitute for complex trades actually tried having a trade solely in forums? Because there's a massive activity difference that can't be made up for with the "convenience" of a forum post. You can post your list of prizekins needed or the 20 cbs you need all you want, but it's meaningless if no one even checks the threads anymore. (And convenience is questionable.)

 

I trade on forum. No probs - slow but effective.

 

7 hours ago, Kaini said:

 

No, they are. That isn't what I said, sorry if that was unclear. 

 

But the essence of the 'rules' isn't going to be radically different. It will still mean 'anything that isn't a want is a no'. TJ said that in his post.

 

Exactly. But we do need clarity on linking to groups within the cave pages.

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8 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

btw if you get banned all your teleports are canceled and magis put on cooldown, including transfers. I know you all hate considering making things convenient for banned or could-be-banned folks but is canceling transfers intentional or otherwise necessary, tj?

 

There I agree. You should still be able to trade privately or glomp.

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@Fuzzbucket

Phrasing "offer I accidentally declined" as "the offer I accidentally declined is good" is kind of a want. In any case, trying to poke it more just results in more craziness, so we need an official statement from TJ09. Personally, I think that on pragmatic grounds it should be allowed.

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Yes, if you want to know what part of want we don't get, it is the rules that prohibit a certain list of wants.  Your definition of want, and other person's definitions of wants, and the mod's definition of wants are different things.  Most of these things we have argued about are wants, at least to the person who wants to post that want.

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What we need but are not getting: an expanded definition which is not useless like "helps people understand what you want" and does not leave stupid amounts of wiggle room for the moderators to seemingly arbitrarily decide "X is good, Y is bad". Also, for that to be written on the create trade page, where people will actually see it and where it's not stuck within 51 pages of feedback where it's not even conclusive.

It seems as if the rules vary based on which moderator posted last.

 

On "most people are fine, me included, so why should I care?":

First they came for the song-lyric people, and I did not speak out, because I did not post song lyrics. 
Then they came for the link posters, and I did not speak out, because I did not post links. 
Then they came for the people asking for an offer they accidentally declined, and I did not speak out, because I did not ask for offers I accidentally declined. 
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

It doesn't flow as well as the original, but you know.

 

Yet another edit: I see nothing wrong with "offer I accidentally declined was good" - someone stretching the T&C/one sentence rule may be able to justify banning for that, but I think it should be allowed (for usability/pragmatism) and isn't particularly banned.

Edited by osmarks

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