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3 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

But that's exactly what I said. :blink:

I know. But I understood the question to be asking about some sort of onsite way of telling them what they did.

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I thought the only thing that was a job conflict for TJ would be scroll to scroll communication.  Asking for PM or no PM would not conflict that, and it it was a conflict, then why is it permitted on the forum?   And if people are posting if a rule should or should not be, it is because the thread is called Trade Hub feedback.  So this is the right place to hash out whether or not something should be a rule, and why they think so.

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If you (generic) are trying to circumvent the prohibition on scroll to scroll communication by routing others through the forum or an external site - that is just a wriggle that effectively enables scroll to scroll communication. I loathe the idea of actual scroll to scroll communication myself anyway - but this isn't about what I do and don't want - I am pretty sure that if scroll to scroll communication is an issue with his job, evasive measures to get around that prohibition would also have to be a risk for him.

 

For that reason alone, I think he has to be the one who decides that, not us. Only he knows what his contract says. I have no interest in fighting for something that is a real problem for him. MUCH more important is defining what can and cannot be in the want box (and the have box if we get one.) And as Starscream pointed out - if someone is that desperate for PMs they ARE allowed to name a dragon "My forum name is...." (No, I have no idea why that's OK either, but...)

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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So, things that can get you banned / are not okay:

Things that won't get you banned (listed here for reference, in case someone comes and says "but what about _____?", independent of whether or not I have any opinion about these - things I know that have cropped up in the discussion so far, basically):

  • Haves, at least until a Have field is implemented.
  • Misrepresenting what you're offering (including using the word "free" for any constellation, or calling something CB that isn't).
  • Reposting your trade(s) repeatedly, with a high enough frequency to dominate the first (and currently only) non-filtered trade page.
  • Saying you don't know if you're willing to trade the egg, but for people to offer.

Am I missing something? Did I get something wrong? I've honestly lost track, so I expect I misfiled some of these.

 

(Edit: Edited to account for Starscream's not-a-quote, where she clarified on the parts I was fuzzy on with what amounted to "prefer you don't do it", which means I'll file it into the "don't do it" section for now. Thanks for the additions, Starscream.)

Edited by pinkgothic

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I'm pretty sure

 

Quote

Asking for the dragons one is trading to be treated in any particular way.

 

is NOT OK. Not least because it isn't a want that you want for yourself, and we don't get to say what others do with anything we had, once it's off our scroll.

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I have not seen TJ say that asking for PM or NO PM's (which is definitely asking not to be communicated with) is a conflict.  But some have decided that PM's which are allowed to be asked for on the forum, is an evasion of a scroll to scroll communication.  Until TJ says it is a conflict, I think it should be able to be up for debate here.

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6 minutes ago, pinkgothic said:

 

Things I'm fuzzy on - AFAIK these have seen a lot of discussion, but I don't know if there was a statement made either way:

  • Asking for the dragons one is trading to be treated in any particular way.
  • Asking for "too specific things". (Cropped up a few times in the context of codes - did we ever get confirmation whether asking for a 2G from a specific Prize was or was not against the rules? This suggests it's not, but I've lost track what the latest statement is.)

 

As far as I know the first wouldn't be allowed, and *shouldn't* be allowed. DC has always been big on 'not on your scroll, not your decision' so I doubt making conditions like that in the Want box would be okay. As far as 'too specific', I interpreted those posts to mean asking for specific *codes* are not allowed, since they are growing dragons that are not yours. Although asking for a specific offspring of a specific dragon probably doesn't really belong in a public trading hub, since there is only one specific person who can fulfill that want. 

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OH come on!  If things that most people cannot fulfill are not allowed, then every trade that asks for a 2g prize should be banned.  And 2g spriter alts.  There are a ton of trades I cannot fultill on the hub.

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1 minute ago, 49ER said:

OH come on!  If things that most people cannot fulfill are not allowed, then every trade that asks for a 2g prize should be banned.  And 2g spriter alts.  There are a ton of trades I cannot fultill on the hub.

 

There is a huge difference between asking for 'rare' things that only a handful of users can fulfill, and asking for a specific dragon's offspring that only *one* person can fulfill. Huge difference! There are hundreds of Prize owners now that can potentially fulfill a 2nd-gen request, and over a dozen in-cave spriters with spriter's alts. That's like saying that asking for a CB Gold is the same and shouldn't be allowed because most people can't easily catch those. Very different situations there.

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It doesn't really matter what us people think is okay or not until we get a word from TJ or, in lieu of that, a word from the mods who can ban said trades.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Shadowdrake

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If you want a SA 2g from RA, only one can fulfill it.  I just think it is ridiculous to outlaw something that only one or tiny handful can fullfill.  If you can't do it, move on and look at next trade.

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If RA stands for Radiant Angel, there are two different spriter's alts. But I personally see a fairly big difference between asking for something 'most' people don't have, and asking for something only *one* person has. If asking for specific codes isn't allowed, which according to mods it's not, then I don't understand why asking for a specific dragon's offspring would be allowed. (Also, a *public* trading hub should, in general, contain trades open to the public, imo. Sure, the majority of people can't easily offer a 2nd-gen Prizes or CB Gold, but it's *possible*. Asking for one specific dragon from one specific person doesn't really belong in a *public* trade (and also, if you can't call out specific users to tell them they are locked, why would it be okay to call out a specific user's dragon as your only want?)

 

Although yes, Shadowdrake is right, it doesn't really matter what any of us think or want to be allowed.

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And until then we are free to discuss them and debate them.  After all, this thread is for giving feedback on what we think regarding this until TJ closes it.

Edited by 49ER

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But sometimes spriters mass breed 2Gs to trade for items they want (e.g. new release hatchlings.)  After the spriter traded out all the 2Gs, the general public should be allowed to ask a 2G from a specific SA because now the trade can be fulfilled by more than one person.

Edited by QVic

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QVc, the people with 2gs could only breed 3gs.  But there are some Spriters who do not want or accept pms to ask to trade breedings, so the only way to try and trade is by putting up something you hope will tempt them.

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I’m now just looking forward to the updates. I was banned recently and the only way to solve this is to sign up on the forum to ask the questions that made me confused. I have read a lot of discussions about this and I just hope the rules can be more clear in cave in the future so that I can avoid the banning, at least, because I cannot get any warnings before I get banned. Now I’m still working hard to gain the gold trophy, and I’m desperate to find that I cannot trade in the hub anymore. I tried to use the forum trade after I signed up, but...........I don’t know why there was no offer for 2 days, even though I said any offers were welcome.... In the past, my previous trades like these can be done successfully in a few hours, and I can get much more offers in a short time, even when I didn’t welcome other offers outside my wanting lists... So... I’m really nervous and sad these days, and I thought of those people who have broken the rules for many times but didn’t get banned(maybe some of them was banned but I didn’t know)... I just hope to see the problems solved as soon as possible ;-; 

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9 minutes ago, 49ER said:

QVc, the people with 2gs could only breed 3gs. 

While the 2nd gens aren't grown up yet, their owners can also trade *those*.

 

edit: Why do I get the feeling today that all I say gets responded to with "But" and then exactly the SAME POINT that I tried to make?!

Edited by Ruby Eyes

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3 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

While the 2nd gens aren't grown up yet, their owners can also trade *those*.

Yes I know but I mean those two successfully got a 2G from the spriter can re-trade the 2G out again.

My point is asking for 2G from a specific SA could be fulfilled by more than 1 person.  Although, this doesn't always happen.

Edited by QVic

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Oh so true, I did not think of that, @Ruby Eyes.  And @Ice_Land, I hope you get your trading privileges back.  TJ did say on another thread that it would be a different punishment system, with perma ban being last result, and it would apply retroactively.  But unfortunately, it seems people are in limbo until he finalizes that.

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7 minutes ago, 49ER said:

Oh so true, I did not think of that, @Ruby Eyes.  And @Ice_Land, I hope you get your trading privileges back.  TJ did say on another thread that it would be a different punishment system, with perma ban being last result, and it would apply retroactively.  But unfortunately, it seems people are in limbo until he finalizes that.

Well, I see~ Thank you very much. I got banned because I got a good offer but the owner was egglocked. I tried to remind him of this with a new trade, because I have seen other people do this for many times. Although I declined this new trade after about 10 min, I still found myself banned ;-; Also, I didn’t know that we couldn’t look for an exact egg in trading hub and write it in the wants(such as looking for xx with code xxxx) because I just followed suit after I saw other people do similar things ;-;

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Sorry to hear that, 1ce1and. Hopefully things will be resolved soon.

 

56 minutes ago, 1ce1and said:

I just followed suit after I saw other people do similar things

This is why we need actual rules, people. We have a single sentence that literally says "trades only", and any punishment is invisible. I know I saw 1ce1and's offer for a specific code many many times and have no doubt many others have too. I genuinely cannot understand why people think clear-cut rules is optional when actually explaining it and its exceptions needs a list.

 

 

Edit to add: I've definitely broken some of these unwritten rules before and haven't gotten punished at all for them, so, y'know, that's another indicator that there's more "rule-breaking" than mods can get to, or even notice.

Edited by Shadowdrake

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hahaha oh my god I just saw this, what on EARTH did I miss?

This thread seems to be vaguely referring to something specifically but its all buried.

Edited by grimace

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Quoting pink gothic and trying to answer, excluse the bolding, I just wanted it to stand out.

 

So, things that can get you banned / are not okay:  in a nut shell, anything is not a trade want, should not be in the want box.

  • Obvious misuse like posting song lyrics or asking for pagination in the "Want" box. (For completion's sake. :P Though we really do want pagination!)(So do I)
  • Asking for a re-offer, regardless how it's worded (even "Want: 3G gold. The offer I accidentally rejected was perfect!"). The want box is not to be used as a shot box. So this is correct.
  • Referring to another specific user in any way. Also includes PM (Me, you, them, kumquat).
  • Referring to any link whatsoever (even dragon groups). for now, dragon groups should be avoided - we aren't banning those though.
  • Referring to any specific dragon code whatsoever, for any purpose, except if you own the code, then it's okay. As I mentioned later in the thread that it is against the TOS:

Interactions with other users

All interactions with other users must be willful. Bothering other users to return abandoned eggs or posting the eggs, hatchlings, or adult dragons without a user's permission are prohibited.

Things I'm fuzzy on - AFAIK these have seen a lot of discussion, but I don't know if there was a statement made either way:

  • Asking for the dragons one is trading to be treated in any particular way.

This is essentially is unenforceable - also - once an egg or hatchling is off your scroll, it is no longer yours and you have no say about what the other user does with it. This can fall under the interaction with users in the TOS. You cannot force your will onto another user. Also, If we allowed for this to be posted on the trading thread, then chances are it could cause bad blood or feelings should a user take the egg being offered and do as they please with it. People then start to want to post black lists declaring a user a bad person. (I don't care if you have a personal black list on your desk - you don't have to trade with who ever you dont want) But specific requests, should perhaps be kept to the forum threads -  where it is equally unenforceable. I am also contacting TJ regarding this.

  • Asking for "too specific things". (Cropped up a few times in the context of codes - did we ever get confirmation whether asking for a 2G from a specific Prize was or was not against the rules? This suggests it's not, but I've lost track what the latest statement is.)

If your specifying a code that does not belong to you, then you are being too specific. In this situation, chances are the person who has that prize, also has a list and is going to fulfill that list. Its best to contact the prize owner (only if they indicate that they are willing to take requests) You could say you want a G2 Prize from lets say, Gold shimmer and a copper, and hope that what you are offering is what the owner of that gold shimmer wants (and if they have the luck) I posted a specified list of wants for my prize, just recently, but I mostly got everything else offered (and repeatedly) so I cancelled the trade.

 

Things that won't get you banned (listed here for reference, in case someone comes and says "but what about _____?", independent of whether or not I have any opinion about these - things I know that have cropped up in the discussion so far, basically):

  • Haves, at least until a Have field is implemented. Correct
  • Misrepresenting what you're offering (including using the word "free" for any constellation, or calling something CB that isn't). (The latter one is a pain, but at least you can check and see for yourself before you place an offer.)
  • Reposting your trade(s) repeatedly, with a high enough frequency to dominate the first (and currently only) non-filtered trade page. (We need pagination or a timer - the former mostly)
  • Saying you don't know if you're willing to trade the egg, but for people to offer. (On the bright side, they are being honest - its best not to invest your trading power with those)

Am I missing something? Did I get something wrong? I've honestly lost track, so I expect I misfiled some of these.

 

Also included.

 

1. Q. HeatherMarie:

Is something like this appropriate for the Want box? 'Messy Ridgewing or Dorsal (messies only, will decline CBs)'  Is saying 'will decline' a no-no because it's not *technically* a 'want', even though it does help people understand what to offer (and what not to offer)? (Asking after way too many CB offers omg....)

A. Purpledragonclaw:

I think that's appropriate for the Wants box, it states what will be accepted and what will be declined.

 

What is in thw future

My understanding is that all current bans will be lifted as soon as a new system is in place that may involve a warn/temp ban system. Its possible that continued rule breaking - when the rules are properly in place, will result in a ban. Patience is requested until such work can be completed.

Edited by Starscream

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It's about five seconds of work to check whether a code was scrambled or not and there are not many code trades.

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