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TJ09

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I suspect some people desire control over their gifts, such as the apparent need to see where it is going before one allows someone to take it. Using the Trading Hub for gifts also seems like a misuse to me but I seem to be in the minority. There was a suggestion of a dedicated hub for gifting on-site but I think it would just end up looking like the AP in the end - random stuff that people don't want to keep but for some reason don't want to send to the actual AP. There's no gift 'too nice' for the AP after all.

 

I feel the AP works perfectly well as a place for random gifts and surprises, so I don't quite understand why putting something up in the Hub for a random person is any different then putting it in the AP where a random person will find it. I mean, other than picking and choosing where one's gift goes but that seems like attaching strings to said gift? Which according to the discussion here is bad, but also ok? I don't understand why some gifting expectations are fine (needing to choose where the gift is going or needing acknowledgement that the gift was taken) and others are wrong (needing the gift not to be traded, regifted or killed). If one of those expectations is being discouraged, they should all be discouraged IMO.

 

The whole 'I don't care what happens to this gift except I must control exactly who is allowed to pick it up' is confusing to me.

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14 minutes ago, Terces said:

I suspect some people desire control over their gifts, such as the apparent need to see where it is going before one allows someone to take it.

 

Which according to the discussion here is bad, but also ok? I don't understand why some gifting expectations are fine (needing to choose where the gift is going or needing acknowledgement that the gift was taken) and others are wrong (needing the gift not to be traded, regifted or killed). 

 

The whole 'I don't care what happens to this gift except I must control exactly who is allowed to pick it up' is confusing to me.

If you go into any gifting thread on the forum you'll see about 10 different rules about what people can do with their gifts and if you look at people who offer to breed and their profiles, it's usually the same sort of thing. Rules of what you can and can't do with gifts are probably the first things a lot of people ever saw at DC and have probably become embedded and will probably spread a bit eventually to the trading hub.

Edited by DarkEternity

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The AP is basically a big garbage pile that we all search through in the hopes of finding treasure. It's completely random who gets what, based on when you are hunting there as well as how many other people are there. People may grab AP eggs specifically for Neglected experiments, or zombie fodder, or new users may grab AP eggs and then abandon the site. There is absolutely no way of knowing who your AP'ed dragon might go to. Now, I'm a huge supporter of the 'if it's not on my scroll it's not my business' view, but while it *is* on my scroll sometimes I'd like to know who it goes to. Also, imo it's more likely that someone offering on a gift-trade is at least a little bit experienced with the game (at least from what I've seen in the hub so far). 

 

Personally, the last 8-ish months I've hunted the biomes a *lot*, both for trade fodder and for things to gift. I'd like to know that my hard work hunting the biomes is appreciated, which imo there is a better chance of it being appreciated if someone deliberately offers on a gift-trade rather then just randomly snagging it off the AP. I don't intend to 'control' the gift in any way, I don't ask that it not be bitten or killed or anything like that, I don't check up on it after it leaves my scroll, and when I gift with a two-way I *always* accept the very first offer so it's not at all about controlling *who* it goes to. It's more about the simple knowledge of who it's going to. That's it, just the knowledge. In general when you give gifts in real life you give them to a specific person, right? You know who it's going to. Gifting is, imo, comparable to gifting in real life, where you normally know who it goes to, and AP-dumping is more comparable to donating it to a thrift store or something.

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40 minutes ago, Toyo said:

 

Especially before crazy times like holidays, I like to gift BSA dragons to newer users so they can collect/influence/trade more dragons than they otherwise could during the designated time period. I like to use two-way trades for things like this, because I have had people try to claim these hatchlings (even when I ask for newer users/users with few BSAs) when they already own dozens and dozens of BSAs, or to take them to trade. 

 

I also dump BSA eggs to the AP, but it is less precise, and while it will probably help someone out, it's not quite the same as knowing I just gifted someone a BSA they really need and want.

 

31 minutes ago, DarkEternity said:

I think people like to breed eggs for teleports because they believe that the person receiving it is going to keep it and care for it, whereas with the AP it might end up dead or as ND fodder or EQ'd etc. I think there's also a stigma about people retrading gifts, there's nothing to stop people retrading stuff they caught from the AP but if it was from a teleport then the person who gifted it knows that the other person retraded it. I also think that some people wouldn't breed those dergs to the AP and only to teles because of that fact. 

 

Does this mean that you would specifically be vetting who picks up your eggs to make sure it's e.g. a new person who could use the BSA? One-way trades don't currently enable that sort of behavior.

 

4 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

The AP is basically a big garbage pile that we all search through in the hopes of finding treasure. It's completely random who gets what, based on when you are hunting there as well as how many other people are there. People may grab AP eggs specifically for Neglected experiments, or zombie fodder, or new users may grab AP eggs and then abandon the site. There is absolutely no way of knowing who your AP'ed dragon might go to. Now, I'm a huge supporter of the 'if it's not on my scroll it's not my business' view, but while it *is* on my scroll sometimes I'd like to know who it goes to. Also, imo it's more likely that someone offering on a gift-trade is at least a little bit experienced with the game (at least from what I've seen in the hub so far). 

 

Personally, the last 8-ish months I've hunted the biomes a *lot*, both for trade fodder and for things to gift. I'd like to know that my hard work hunting the biomes is appreciated, which imo there is a better chance of it being appreciated if someone deliberately offers on a gift-trade rather then just randomly snagging it off the AP. I don't intend to 'control' the gift in any way, I don't ask that it not be bitten or killed or anything like that, I don't check up on it after it leaves my scroll, and when I gift with a two-way I *always* accept the very first offer so it's not at all about controlling *who* it goes to. It's more about the simple knowledge of who it's going to. That's it, just the knowledge. In general when you give gifts in real life you give them to a specific person, right? You know who it's going to. Gifting is, imo, comparable to gifting in real life, where you normally know who it goes to, and AP-dumping is more comparable to donating it to a thrift store or something.

I don't follow--I thought the point of the current discussion is why the trading hub should/shouldn't allow one-way transfers as well. In such a case you don't get to know/follow who your one-way transfer goes to either.

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I have to agree that I seriously doubt people would use one way tp's in trade hub all that much.  I think it is more that some would like a gifting area, where people could offer dummy egg for something there, but it appears people cannot agree on what constitutes free in trade hub.  If I really need to get rid of something fast I will just abandon it.

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Giftwise, it's nice to have it go to someone who specifically wants it enough to offer or accept a transfer for it and knows the value of, say, a common x holiday checker that they might need or enjoy the look of, or a fandom-based lineage they'd like, as opposed to an egg that's otherwise indistinguishable from the rest of the generic stuff in the AP. Of course this appreciation doesn't always happen with gifts and there's nothing I want done about that, they're fair to do what they want once it's on their scroll but the chances are greatly increased all the same. It's like the difference between just catching things in cave and being able to trade for what you prefer, sort of.

 

tl;dr gifting as opposed to ap'ing means people can see qualities that the ap doesn't show, and take and appreciate an egg they would never notice otherwise.

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35 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

Does this mean that you would specifically be vetting who picks up your eggs to make sure it's e.g. a new person who could use the BSA? One-way trades don't currently enable that sort of behavior.

Quite often people who do this, @TJ09 , want to explore the scroll of the potential recipient to ensure that they meet the criteria as set down by the person offering the "gift". So they often ask, on the forums for people to PM them prior to receiving the teleport link, or offer a dummy egg/hatchling. At this point the scroll name is visible, in the trade, and the person with the egg, can check out the scroll who wants it. Also it is not uncommon for users to request/demand that the person who wants the egg, to enable the ability to see their scroll should it be hidden (for safety sake). People often don't want their eggs going to scrolls where deaths happen frequently (such as mine) because they feel they still have some sort of ownership/claim on the traded eggs.

Edited by Starscream

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BUT...I think this often gets abused.  Someone wants to give a prize to someone who doesn't have it or has a low trophy level.  A multi scroller can offer with one of their extra scrolls, thereby fitting the criteria, and then transfer it to their main scroll later.  That is why I never put that kind of criteria on an egg.

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It's true that knowing where a gift goes has no definite bearing on what happens to it. Having a one-way gifting section/option would be great, and I would enjoy using it, though I'd hope that two-way gifting (technically, trading) wouldn't be banned because of it. 

 

Edited because I reused a word twice in the same sentence, and it really bothered me!

Edited by Toyo

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2 hours ago, DarkEternity said:

If you go into any gifting thread on the forum you'll see about 10 different rules about what people can do with their gifts and if you look at people who offer to breed and their profiles, it's usually the same sort of thing. Rules of what you can and can't do with gifts are probably the first things a lot of people ever saw at DC and have probably become embedded and will probably spread a bit eventually to the trading hub.

 

Right. But we're repeatedly told that we are not allowed to expect such 'user gifting rules' to be followed - for instance I can't gift something and tell the giftee 'hey, you can't kill this if you take it' and then come complaining if my gift is killed. The giftee is allowed to do whatever they want with it. We're not allowed to have control over anything that leaves our scrolls, right? But gifting threads are allowed to put up rules and then punish people if they don't follow them with things like public Blacklists (yet users are forbidden from having these). I guess it doesn't really have to do with the Trading Hub specifically, I've just been trying to explain DC forum rules to a newer player and these inconsistencies really stuck out to me.

 

This also makes me wonder if gifting rules are allowed in the Trading Hub. Would 'please don't freeze' or 'please no killing' be acceptable, since gifting threads already do this?

 

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

The AP is basically a big garbage pile that we all search through in the hopes of finding treasure.

 

I agree nowadays, but it wasn't always like that - I used to be able to easily finds nice things in the AP just as easily as I found things I didn't want. When more and more people began deciding that their nice stuff was 'too nice' for the AP and started giving most of these nice things away on the Forums (and now the Trading Hub). Which has created a cycle of more nice things on the Forums/Hub and less nice things in the AP, leading to it being mostly a garbage pile. It definitely takes me a lot longer to egg lock myself this year than previous years.

 

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

The AP is basically a big garbage pile that we all search through in the hopes of finding treasure. It's completely random who gets what, based on when you are hunting there as well as how many other people are there. People may grab AP eggs specifically for Neglected experiments, or zombie fodder, or new users may grab AP eggs and then abandon the site. There is absolutely no way of knowing who your AP'ed dragon might go to.

 

I don't see the Trading Hub as being any different though. Full of random stuff, and what kind of things you find will also depend when you are searching it (some people only puts trades up during the day, or evening, at night, etc.) or how many other people are offering on trades. You have a better chance of your offer being accepted if there are less people competing against you, much like the AP. Even today people take some of those free eggs from the Hub and kill them, or use them for Neglecting experiments, or just get bored of the site and let them die because they stopped playing. And just because someone knows who took a two-way gift, doesn't mean they will keep it - we've seen this happen plenty of times on the Departure Thread and other gifting threads. Someone could easily dump it into the AP and then the gifter has no idea where it went. This will be doubly true if a Gifting Hub was created. It would almost certainly just end up like the AP, full of random unwanted stuff, people taking stuff and abandoning it, people taking stuff and killing it, or neglecting it, or anything else that happens with AP eggs. I don't quite see how it would be different or better than the AP is all.

 

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I don't intend to 'control' the gift in any way, I don't ask that it not be bitten or killed or anything like that, I don't check up on it after it leaves my scroll, and when I gift with a two-way I *always* accept the very first offer so it's not at all about controlling *who* it goes to. It's more about the simple knowledge of who it's going to. That's it, just the knowledge.

 

Does knowing who picked it up from you really matter though? I mean if someone doesn't care that the egg/hatchling is passed around to different homes afterwards, and honestly doesn't care what happens to it, I can't really understand why it matters if one knows who touched it first. If someone put stipulations on their gift, then I'd at least understand why they want to know who took it even if we're not supposed to expect any 'user gifting rules' to be followed.

 

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

In general when you give gifts in real life you give them to a specific person, right? You know who it's going to. Gifting is, imo, comparable to gifting in real life, where you normally know who it goes to, and AP-dumping is more comparable to donating it to a thrift store or something.

 

For me gifting to a specific person means I know ahead of time who the person I want to gift to is, and I have a gift just for them. I don't really offer it to public at large. I'd say two-way gifts seems more like posting an ad on Craigslist and saying 'Here is a free gift! But I won't let it go to anyone who doesn't show me some ID first' which is probably something that can be done, it's just a bit weird. Especially if they told me they don't care what I do with it. 'What if I take this wonderful gift and sell it? Dump it at a thrift store? Or throw in the garbage? Destroy it?' 'Yes those things are fine by me, I just want see the ID of the person who picked it up so I know whose hands touched it first'. I hope that makes sense.

 

The idea that gifts will be better loved if gotten through the T-hub and forums (via two-way trading) as opposed to the AP is also a little strange to me. If I received something really nice from someone and all I had to do was fetch a random piece of basically garbage in exchange for it, why would I value it more than something nice I spent time digging around for in the thrift store? When I think of how much time I have to spend in the AP just to find something pretty, versus receiving a pretty thing when all I gave for it was something that had no value... I don't think I would appreciate it that much more, you know? It's not that I wouldn't enjoy it at all, but I wouldn't enjoy it more.

 

Sorry for the wall of text!

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5 hours ago, TJ09 said:

I asked this the last time it came up, and the answer was fairly inconclusive: in what ways is it not the same? When would you want to give an egg/hatchling away for free via trading where abandoning the egg is a worse option/not an option?

 

4 hours ago, DarkEternity said:

I think people like to breed eggs for teleports because they believe that the person receiving it is going to keep it and care for it, whereas with the AP it might end up dead or as ND fodder or EQ'd etc. I think there's also a stigma about people retrading gifts, there's nothing to stop people retrading stuff they caught from the AP but if it was from a teleport then the person who gifted it knows that the other person retraded it. I also think that some people wouldn't breed those dergs to the AP and only to teles because of that fact. 

 

There is this. There is also glomping - gifting randomly to people you think will appreciate stuff by PM. I don't actually care if people retrade my stuff, but if I breed something special I would prefer to think it will go to someone who will value it. (Even though I don't actually track my stuff, it's still a feeling.) And it IS annoying when people grab - for instance - z eggs from the thread when they are intended for z people - so one does put those on two way - we used not to need to.

 

The huge difference between the AP and the hub is that in the AP you have no idea at all what you are picking up; in the hub, MOSTLY the trader specifies what they have fairly accurately. Also you can see before you accept, so don't have to pick up and abandon if it isn't what you want.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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1 hour ago, Terces said:

Right. But we're repeatedly told that we are not allowed to expect such 'user gifting rules' to be followed - for instance I can't gift something and tell the giftee 'hey, you can't kill this if you take it' and then come complaining if my gift is killed. The giftee is allowed to do whatever they want with it. We're not allowed to have control over anything that leaves our scrolls, right? But gifting threads are allowed to put up rules and then punish people if they don't follow them with things like public Blacklists (yet users are forbidden from having these). I guess it doesn't really have to do with the Trading Hub specifically, I've just been trying to explain DC forum rules to a newer player and these inconsistencies really stuck out to me.

 

This also makes me wonder if gifting rules are allowed in the Trading Hub. Would 'please don't freeze' or 'please no killing' be acceptable, since gifting threads already do this?

The wants box is super tiny right now so I don't think you're going to be seeing a lot of it. And those people who are trying to get hatchies or rares by saying that it is free are hardly going to stop anyone who wants something 'free'. I haven't really seen anyone who wants to gift something away specify anything.

 

--------------------------------

 

RE: 1 way teleports if there seems to be a lot of people asking for a specific dragons in the trading hub I'd probably be more inclined to breed/1 way tp dragons if 1 way teleportation was permitted in the hub as opposed to breeding to the AP because of the time delay too and the fact that you can't really contact anyone on DC. Well apart from the forums.

Edited by DarkEternity

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8 hours ago, TJ09 said:

I asked this the last time it came up, and the answer was fairly inconclusive: in what ways is it not the same? When would you want to give an egg/hatchling away for free via trading where abandoning the egg is a worse option/not an option?

For me, it's mostly the narrative "feeling" - abandoning an egg to "die" (which it would actually only do behind a wall of holidays) vs. gifting to someone via spending a teleport.

 

Plus, it seems to me that eggs gifted via the forum (or the hub, I suppose) are more likely to grow up and not die of biting, neglecting or simply forgetting. People grab an egg on the forum because they like it for whatever reason. Grabbing an egg from the AP, on the other hand, is like rummaging through garbage, through thrown-away things. I find very often that eggs I dropped to the AP have died on someone else's scroll.

 

So I prefer to gift eggs that have some kind of meaning to me via teleport and not via abandon.

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6 hours ago, Terces said:

This also makes me wonder if gifting rules are allowed in the Trading Hub. Would 'please don't freeze' or 'please no killing' be acceptable, since gifting threads already do this?

 

I have my doubts, since once an egg/hatchling is off your scroll, it is no longer your egg - and you have no actual say/control over what is done with that egg/hatchling. I probably would mod it. What you want, is what you want in return for your what you are offering. You can try to stretch the definition to include that, but I don't think it would fly.

 

Also, its unenforceable. You can say anything you want, but no one has to actually do as you ask.

 

As far as remarking it in a trade - I'd suggest avoiding it.

Edited by Starscream

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8 hours ago, Terces said:

The idea that gifts will be better loved if gotten through the T-hub and forums (via two-way trading) as opposed to the AP is also a little strange to me.

In my eyes it's simply "if I gift maybe the person who decides to take it will actually like the lineage (aka the hard work I put in it) instead of it going to someone who just wants another common incuhatchable and sticks it with the rest of their dragons without ever checking lineage".

 

To be fair it's mostly a selfish "I want my work to be appreciated somehow" which means I'm giving away these nice-lineaged but common-breed eggs with at least the happy feeling that someone liked it enough to lock up a slot for it and will maybe even name it later.

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1 hour ago, Starscream said:

 

I have my doubts, since once an egg/hatchling is off your scroll, it is no longer your egg - and you have no actual say/control over what is done with that egg/hatchling. I probably would mod it. What you want, is what you want in return for your what you are offering. You can try to stretch the definition to include that, but I don't think it would fly.

 

Also, its unenforceable. You can say anything you want, but no one has to actually do as you ask.

 

As far as remarking it in a trade - I'd suggest avoiding it.

 

Absolutely agree.The idea that we have any right to say what others do with their scrolls is anathema to me.

 

17 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

In my eyes it's simply "if I gift maybe the person who decides to take it will actually like the lineage (aka the hard work I put in it) instead of it going to someone who just wants another common incuhatchable and sticks it with the rest of their dragons without ever checking lineage".

 

To be fair it's mostly a selfish "I want my work to be appreciated somehow" which means I'm giving away these nice-lineaged but common-breed eggs with at least the happy feeling that someone liked it enough to lock up a slot for it and will maybe even name it later.

 

Yes - that's it exactly - thanks for expressing it so well.

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13 hours ago, Terces said:

 

Right. But we're repeatedly told that we are not allowed to expect such 'user gifting rules' to be followed - for instance I can't gift something and tell the giftee 'hey, you can't kill this if you take it' and then come complaining if my gift is killed. The giftee is allowed to do whatever they want with it. We're not allowed to have control over anything that leaves our scrolls, right? 

Right. But that doesn't mean I have to want to gift the same person again after failing to meet a request, does it? That's all the control I want. No shaming, no blaming, no nothing. Just a personal reaction. Because, while a giftee can do what they want with their gift, they're not entitled to more gifts from the same gifter, either.

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21 minutes ago, olympe said:

Right. But that doesn't mean I have to want to gift the same person again after failing to meet a request, does it? That's all the control I want. No shaming, no blaming, no nothing. Just a personal reaction. Because, while a giftee can do what they want with their gift, they're not entitled to more gifts from the same gifter, either.

in a trade -gift (with dummies in this case) you don't have to accept, so its not impossible to deny a user who has disregarded your terms.

 

So yeah, this is 100% right. Also correct is no shaming. for example, if on forums, I took the egg that the trader said  "No bad actions" and I come along and bit the egg (not a bad action to me - beautiful vamps are my thing) they cannot publicly cry out that Starscream bit the egg and killed it(or repulsed/turned). But should they have an egg, I may be interested in again, they do not have to accept my offer. Even if they say first come first served (How would I know).

 

So yeah @Terces the only control you have is anything that is on your scroll. On the same note, no one can tell you to breed a dragon to something you don't want to, or name it anything so it fits their naming pattern. Keeping in mind that also, any dragon you receive in trade - specifically bred ones, the originating scroll owes you nothing in regards to the continuation of that lineage. They can, should they choose, destroy the lineage. (It could be considered a miserable move, but it is what it is. its not illegal, nor is it a scam or anything like that.)

 

In the trade, you have the control on what you want to offer, what you want to accept (and who from).

 

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I agree, but it's good to hear it from a mod so thank you for responding. Most of the Hub trouble seemed to have come from players (including me) not realizing it has different rules compared to the forums, and as it's common to see gift requests for no killing/freezing/etc here so I can see someone not understanding that it wouldn't be allowed on the Hub, and possibly getting in trouble for it.

 

Again, I totally understand not wanting to gift to someone who did something to a gift that the gifter didn't like. There are people out there that I won't send a gift to because of their previous behavior with my gifts. If there were (unenforceable) stipulations on the gift, it makes sense that someone would want to know where it is going. I was confused why it matters to gifters who don't care what happens to their gifts.

Edited by Terces

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You can ASK people to do/not do  these things on forum, but there's nothing you can do. Actually it's quite a relief to have an area where you CAN'T try and force a play style on the recipient. (Not to mention that in the hub it's fairly clear that all you can put is what you have (for now) and what you want. "No killing" and the like are not "helping others to see what you want.") I saw one in the hub the other day I quite wanted, but it said "continue the lineage." Well, that wasn't what I wanted to do with it, so I didn't offer. (I would have used it as the other half of an arrow... that's my right, but I couldn't be bothered upsetting the trader.)

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Sure but I technically fell afoul of the rules even though I thought I was doing something that helped people understand what I wanted, meanwhile it seemed obvious to me that a Trading Hub would be for trading only and not gifting... like I said, misunderstandings happen. As obvious as something may seem, I thought it better to ask the question rather than assume I (as a player) know what is and isn't punishable on the Hub, at least until the rule updates happen. I too have seen some trading/gifting stipulations in the hub already, not many but a few, and that also prompted me to ask. I don't know if I would report them for it though.

 

It's also worth discussing as there may be the possibility of a dedicated Gifting Hub, which might have different rules from the Trading Hub.

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Hey I had someone refuse to gift me on a first come first serve because they disliked my username.  So refusing to gift someone can happen for any reason, and rarely would anyone know why.  But I don't see it being wrong to request no killing or whatever, even if it can't be enforced.  

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30 minutes ago, 49ER said:

Hey I had someone refuse to gift me on a first come first serve because they disliked my username.  So refusing to gift someone can happen for any reason, and rarely would anyone know why.  But I don't see it being wrong to request no killing or whatever, even if it can't be enforced.  

Basically, just do it on the forums, the hub is not the venue for that.

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Starscream I fail to see how that is any different then saying you want someone with a low trophy or newbie to get it?  Those people are not being reported or banned are they?

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