Trading Hub Feedback

[49ER]

Well, technically the gifts are "trades" in the hub, albeit a very one sided trade.  But if I choose not to "trade' with that person again and write it down on a list that I may or may not have, I don't think it is for anyone to say I cannot choose to do that.

[HeatherMarie]

Coming in a tad late to this issue, but yeah, 'free' is obviously not something that should be bannable or censored in any way. Just use common sense: If it says 'free' but then has conditions, obviously it's not 'free' the way you would generally think of the word, and if that bothers you just ignore the trade. On the other hand, I think it's perfectly understandable to say something like 'free- offer any hatchling' because maybe that person is egglocked and actually *can't* accept an egg (or has one spot left and wants to be able to hunt while waiting for an offer). I don't think that is 'misuse' in any way. If you feel that someone's choice of wording is misleading or it bothers you, don't offer on the trade, simple. 

 

On the issue of people doing things you don't approve of with their own dragons.... It's their dragon. They own it. They can do whatever they want. If you are attached to an egg to the point where it will upset you if someone does something with it that you don't like, then it's probably best not to trade it at all (or trade it and then don't 'check up' on it....). 

[pinkgothic]

For what it's worth, while I'm as annoyed as anyone at misleading trade descriptions (CBs that aren't CB, free when they're asking for hatchlings, et cetera), I'd really rather not see those become bannable. At the end of the day it's probably a lot of work to keep up with for the mods, and people who in a fit of sleepiness goof up in some way (calling something CB that isn't), or who just have a different understanding of some words (e.g. as has been said before, "free - offer any hatchling" might make sense to someone who is egg-locked, and they might not be trying to be sneaky about their trade at all), would end up punished for what might be an honest mistake.

[Fuzzbucket]

pink - what else can you do when you want to gift something - I'd possibly ask for a random hatchie, just so I could be sure to keep breeding if I wanted...

[49ER]

I don't think anybody was suggesting it be bannable.  Just asking if it is reportable.  I don't want to see anyone banned unless they are obviously trying to abuse the trade hub--and I am aware, my definition may differ from others.

[LadyLyzar]

I am going to merge conversation from Help regarding suggestions to the Trading Hub into this topic.  Here are key points made by TJ:

On 8/6/2018 at 1:20 AM, TJ09 said:

To help us develop better guidelines, can you explain what you find unclear about "Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for?" That is exactly what the site asks you to provide, and outside of a singular exception ("haves" are a clear missing bit in the feature) nothing else is allowed.

 

So to expand on @DarkEternity's list, here's what you can put in the box:

• Wants ("[helping] others understand what types of offers you are looking for")
• Haves (for now: specifically "describing what you are offering." This is technically against the rules-as-written, but will not get you blocked from trading)

Here's what you should not put in the box:

• Literally anything else.

 

On 8/12/2018 at 3:26 PM, TJ09 said:

To update everyone: The rules are going to be updated, specifically to make it clearer that any use of the message for anything other than wants/haves is forbidden. It'll also call out that links are forbidden. As for bans, things are going to be restructured to have a few phases before reaching permanent status. This will apply retroactively to those who are banned. ETA within the next two weeks, alongside a few other updates.

[purplehaze]

20 hours ago, 49ER said:

I don't think anybody was suggesting it be bannable.  Just asking if it is reportable.  I don't want to see anyone banned unless they are obviously trying to abuse the trade hub--and I am aware, my definition may differ from others.

But if it isn't bannable then why report it? It isn't against the rules, apparently.

[Suzumiya]

I have done a few 'trades' where I was offering free eggs, just wanting any dummy (egg or hatchie). I hope that isn't a bannable/reportable offense. I like doing that. I'm not asking for anything in return, really. Just grab a random AP egg, toss it in my trade, and there. You have a free egg. All you had to do was offer a totally random dummy. Just like people in the Community Departure Threads asking for dummy eggs. You're getting something nice for free, because you're just trading a (usually) crappy dummy egg. 

[Aalbiel]

2 hours ago, Suzumiya said:

I have done a few 'trades' where I was offering free eggs, just wanting any dummy (egg or hatchie). I hope that isn't a bannable/reportable offense. I like doing that. I'm not asking for anything in return, really. Just grab a random AP egg, toss it in my trade, and there. You have a free egg. All you had to do was offer a totally random dummy. Just like people in the Community Departure Threads asking for dummy eggs. You're getting something nice for free, because you're just trading a (usually) crappy dummy egg. 

 

This is perfectly fine and accepted by all. Dummy egg = free, I don't see how anyone can contest this.

 

What people are annoyed by (including myself, some days) is some of the things from the following list:

• Putting "free" in your offer title, although your offer is not actually free, just so it pops up in searches of people searching the word "free"
• "Free, just offer one hatchie". (In the case where the trade-maker will not take a dummy egg). Hatchies are not free. They take time to hatch, potentially BSAs if you want to cut down on time. They cannot just be grabbed from AP like a dummy egg. This may even take advantage of new players/inexperienced traders who will take these people at their word.
• "Free, just offer one CB hatchie/BSA hatchie/..."  Even worse! The pretence that this is free is just ridiculous at this point. You're asking for something of value, you are trading, not gifting.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Aalbiel

[HeatherMarie]

It's very possible that when someone says 'free' but asks for a hatchie, they do that because they are unable to accept any egg at that time (egglocked, or have one slot left and want to keep hunting while waiting for an offer). Unless they ask for *specifics* it still counts a 'free' imo, because they are asking for *any* hatchie, not asking for anything specific. If you don't think it's worth a hatchie, if you think a hatchie is too much work to offer, then don't offer. (I do agree that specifying CB and such definitely is not 'free' in any sense, although I still don't think it should be bannable.)

[olympe]

Well, if you send away an egg, you don't need to ask for a hatchling because you can't get locked with an egg. Because the number of eggs on your scroll doesn't change with the exchange.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 minute ago, olympe said:

Well, if you send away an egg, you don't need to ask for a hatchling because you can't get locked with an egg. Because the number of eggs on your scroll doesn't change with the exchange.

 

Even so, waiting for an offer when you have one slot free and want to keep playing is something I can't blame anyone for.

[Shadowdrake]

The large majority of "free for a hatchling" I've seen have included at least one egg if not more in the trade, which is why we're annoyed. It's very obviously an attempt to get something while trying to catch people's eyes by saying "free", and none of this "they must not want to be egglocked" stuff applies to those trades at all because having an egg up for "free" will still have that slot locked anyway. And an incuhatchable takes an hour to hatch, longer if you don't have reds, and by that point chances are said trade wil be long gone so a would-be offerer wasted a slot and possibly a red.

 

At this point I am simply waiting for the adjusted rules to appear and I hope it takes less time than pagination has, though I don't have high hopes on either speed or improvement.

[Suzumiya]

5 hours ago, Aalbiel said:

 

This is perfectly fine and accepted by all. Dummy egg = free, I don't see how anyone can contest this.

 

What people are annoyed by (including myself, some days) is some of the things from the following list:

• Putting "free" in your offer title, although your offer is not actually free, just so it pops up in searches of people searching the word "free"
• "Free, just offer one hatchie". (In the case where the trade-maker will not take a dummy egg). Hatchies are not free. They take time to hatch, potentially BSAs if you want to cut down on time. They cannot just be grabbed from AP like a dummy egg. This may even take advantage of new players/inexperienced traders who will take these people at their word.
• "Free, just offer one CB hatchie/BSA hatchie/..."  Even worse! The pretence that this is free is just ridiculous at this point. You're asking for something of value, you are trading, not gifting.

 

That's why I wish there really WERE a free option. Where someone can just take it without leaving a dummy. I never ask for just hatchies, just any dummy egg. Something is free if all you have to do is grab a messy AP egg and put it in the trade. Odds are, I don't want the AP egg and neither does the person who grabbed it, so it's just a way for us to trade since giving away eggs isn't part of the TH yet.

[HeatherMarie]

I would looooove a 'gifting' option in the hub, because obviously people don't like the trades that say 'free' for many different reasons and yet right now that is the *only* way to 'gift' in-game, without going through the forums or somewhere else (and no, dropping it to the AP is not the same thing at all). 

 

I personally don't think we should try to assume someone's motives for putting 'free' in their Want text. Are there some people who probably deliberately do it to catch people's attention? Sure. But we have no idea which people they are and which people are actually being genuine and don't have any ulterior/deceptive motives at all, and I personally don't like to assume that *everyone* doing something is doing it for bad reasons.

[Starscream]

On 8/13/2018 at 9:47 AM, Fuzzbucket said:

Sure you can - but it is still a condition you can't hold anyone to. When there are posts here saying "I said no trading and they traded it" - well, sorry, them's the breaks.

Exactly, because it is no longer on the original scroll. There is nothing anyone can do to stop a user from biting, trading, gifting, killing, flipping upside down, an egg once it is on their scroll.

 

On 8/13/2018 at 12:47 PM, Fuzzbucket said:

 

I THINK TJ said no links AT ALL.

We're working on it...

 

As for Free: Offer dummy egg,hatchling or whatever.... Since there is no way to drop one way teleports into the trading hub, this is entirely OKAY to use.  it may seem "deceptive, or dishonest" but so be it, don't offer if it bothers you.  If they wish to, they can keep that dummy, or trade it off. Any reports on free being made will likely be dismissed.

 

a one way teleport/gifting option for the hub might be nice.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Starscream

[olympe]

I actually prefer to send two-way teleports with "gifts" just so I can make sure it's not always the same person who gets all of them. Or so I do have the option to not gift to certain users, should I ever feel that it's necessary to exclude. I mean, in real life, most gifts are targeted, and I reserve the right to do just that to some degree. Target my gifts. That being said, what I posted before still applies:

 

"And, while gifts should come with no strings attached, imagine the following: You buy your neighbor a really nice birthday gift - or so you think. It took quite some effort on your part to find it. Not a week later, you see them selling it on ebay. Would you seriously buy them another gift anytime soon? (Personally, if I felt like having to get a gift for them, it'd be a gift card.)"

So, yes, I would feel offended if someone sold my gift, or gifted it to someone else. And, even though what happened isn't something I can do anything about, I'd probably not want to gift the same person again.

Edited August 15, 2018 by olympe

[HeatherMarie]

I sometimes do two-ways for gifts if the gift in question was something it took awhile to get, and I do it a lot on an off-site group because there seems to be a lot of people grabbing gifts without commenting (which is against the rules there but still happens). But I don't pick and choose who it goes to, if it's a gift I accept the first offer and often don't even look at the username. (And honestly, no I wouldn't be bothered if someone re-gifted or sold my gift, because it was a gift. I have no expectations of what they will do with it, and honestly in real life I'm one of those people who does sometimes re-gift things because I simply don't have a use for the gift. However, I'm also one of those players who never ever 'checks up' on bred-to-AP eggs because it just really doesn't concern me, so I guess in general it's just a difference in how people see things.)

[osmarks]

I have nothing against "free, offer anything" or "free, offer a dummy egg". Why? Because you can just pick up a dummy egg from the AP, send it to them, and then have them dump it. But with "free, offer a hatchling", they're asking for a significant time investment - hatching an AP thing normally takes about 10 hours. With incubate you can get it down to maybe one or two, but that costs a lot of time and still an incubate. If they put up a hatchling and are egglocked, I'd understand - they don't want to drop whatever they have for the sake of generosity. But a lot of the time, they could accept egg(s) but just want to grab people's attention with FREE and then get a hatchling.

[olympe]

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

I sometimes do two-ways for gifts if the gift in question was something it took awhile to get, and I do it a lot on an off-site group because there seems to be a lot of people grabbing gifts without commenting (which is against the rules there but still happens). But I don't pick and choose who it goes to, if it's a gift I accept the first offer and often don't even look at the username. (And honestly, no I wouldn't be bothered if someone re-gifted or sold my gift, because it was a gift. I have no expectations of what they will do with it, and honestly in real life I'm one of those people who does sometimes re-gift things because I simply don't have a use for the gift. However, I'm also one of those players who never ever 'checks up' on bred-to-AP eggs because it just really doesn't concern me, so I guess in general it's just a difference in how people see things.)

Truth to be told, I don't usually check, either - but I know I'd be pissed when, in the middle of a gifting spree, I'd see one of my freshly gifted eggs up for trade.

[Fuzzbucket]

34 minutes ago, osmarks said:

I have nothing against "free, offer anything" or "free, offer a dummy egg". Why? Because you can just pick up a dummy egg from the AP, send it to them, and then have them dump it. But with "free, offer a hatchling", they're asking for a significant time investment - hatching an AP thing normally takes about 10 hours. With incubate you can get it down to maybe one or two, but that costs a lot of time and still an incubate. If they put up a hatchling and are egglocked, I'd understand - they don't want to drop whatever they have for the sake of generosity. But a lot of the time, they could accept egg(s) but just want to grab people's attention with FREE and then get a hatchling.

 

Then don't offer on those trades.

[HeatherMarie]

5 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Then don't offer on those trades.

 

This, so much.

 

Personally there are certain breeds/lineages I would *gladly* offer a hatchling for, and even gladly grab an AP egg and use up an Incubate and a couple hours to hatch it in order to offer it. If it's worth it it's worth it! If it isn't, just ignore the trade. There are a *lot* of trades I ignore for one reason or another, sometimes I'm uncertain what they actually want, sometimes I have one of the things listed but the wording makes it sound like maybe it wouldn't be accepted, sometimes people only ask for SAs and other things I don't have access to... So I ignore those trades and find something else to offer on, or create my own trade. 

[TJ09]

22 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

(and no, dropping it to the AP is not the same thing at all).

I asked this the last time it came up, and the answer was fairly inconclusive: in what ways is it not the same? When would you want to give an egg/hatchling away for free via trading where abandoning the egg is a worse option/not an option?

[Toyo]

58 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

I asked this the last time it came up, and the answer was fairly inconclusive: in what ways is it not the same? When would you want to give an egg/hatchling away for free via trading where abandoning the egg is a worse option/not an option?

 

Especially before crazy times like holidays, I like to gift BSA dragons to newer users so they can collect/influence/trade more dragons than they otherwise could during the designated time period. I like to use two-way trades for things like this, because I have had people try to claim these hatchlings (even when I ask for newer users/users with few BSAs) when they already own dozens and dozens of BSAs, or to take them to trade. 

 

I also dump BSA eggs to the AP, but it is less precise, and while it will probably help someone out, it's not quite the same as knowing I just gifted someone a BSA they really need and want.

[DarkEternity]

I think people like to breed eggs for teleports because they believe that the person receiving it is going to keep it and care for it, whereas with the AP it might end up dead or as ND fodder or EQ'd etc. I think there's also a stigma about people retrading gifts, there's nothing to stop people retrading stuff they caught from the AP but if it was from a teleport then the person who gifted it knows that the other person retraded it. I also think that some people wouldn't breed those dergs to the AP and only to teles because of that fact. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by DarkEternity