Trading Hub Feedback

[HeatherMarie]

Just for reference, right now in the trading hub if you filter for trades containing Siyats the bottom one shown is 12:08pm, less then 4 hours ago. If you specify eggs only in that search it shows all trades (going back to the 3rd), but if you specify hatchlings only the bottom one is from 11:15am, still less then 5 hours ago. So it's definitely possible for trades to become completely unseeable in less then 6 hours.

[olympe]

17 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

Would it help the whole 'bumping abuse' if there was a limit on how many times you could make the *same* trade within a certain amount of time? Like, for instance, I make a trade with Magi A for egg B, and then I cancel and remake it... I can only do that maybe three times before I have to wait a few hours to make that same trade. Would that help? It would help stop constant bumping while not punishing people who have to remake for other reasons.

No idea, if TJ is able and willing to code for this - but it seems a bit complicated to poor old me, so... *shrugs*

Simply putting the executing Magi on cooldown would help, too. Because most people don't have armies of them. At the very least, it should get all of us in the habit of checking and double-checking our trades before we post them. (A preview feature would be nice, too... And, of course, pagination and the ability to edit the text accompanying a trade)

[49ER]

Yes I really don't know how they could enforce it.  I am ok with a Magi being put on CD if trade is cancelled, whether offers are made or not.  That MIGHT help a little.  It is possible also that rules stated saying that bumping more often than x hours is prohibited would also curb some of it.  Putting a cancelled trade magi on CD should be an easy coding fix for magis.

Edited August 6, 2018 by 49ER

[ninish]

Well, since we have a notification section now... 

 

How about we get a notification on site when there's an update to the trading rules? (Or any rule update on the site, for that matter?) Such as the one we get for prize Raffles :0

 

And, once we click on it, we are taken to where we can read the full guidelines?

 

This way *every dragcave user* (forum user or not) gets the notification, and will know where they can read it again if confused. 

 

Excuse my bad execution, this is the best I can do in mobile:

 

Imagine it's all in the proper format, lol. 

 

[JavaTigress]

10 minutes ago, ninish said:

Well, since we have a notification section now... 

 

How about we get a notification on site when there's an update to the trading rules? (Or any rule update on the site, for that matter?) Such as the one we get for prize Raffles :0

 

And, once we click on it, we are taken to where we can read the full guidelines?

 

This way *every dragcave user* (forum user or not) gets the notification, and will know where they can read it again if confused. 

 

Excuse my bad execution, this is the best I can do in mobile:

 

Imagine it's all in the proper format, lol. 

 

Yes! I would say that sounds like a VERY good idea.

 

Notifications for ANY rules change that will impact users ( whether forumites or not) is a  sound plan.

[Toyo]

2 hours ago, 49ER said:

Yes I really don't know how they could enforce it.  I am ok with a Magi being put on CD if trade is cancelled, whether offers are made or not.  That MIGHT help a little.  It is possible also that rules stated saying that bumping more often than x hours is prohibited would also curb some of it.  Putting a cancelled trade magi on CD should be an easy coding fix for magis.

 

Oh gosh. As someone who constantly messes up their trade links (typos galore!) or has multiple trades up at a time (which need to be updated as some "wants" were fulfilled in a different trade link), I'd prefer my magis to NOT be put on cooldown when cancelled.

 

[Kirono]

5 hours ago, Kaini said:

 

Doubtful that'll happen considering the rules are right there and clear. Or at least they are to 99% of the people on the hub, since the majority of the posts are perfectly fine, even if the user doesn't have a forum account. Seems to be clear enough for most, yes?

 

If you have to justify putting something there, and make leaps to justify it ('a PM link could be considered helping people understand what you want!') then maybeeee one can kinda realize it's not allowed.

 

 

And again if a trade is too complex for the hub (you're looking for a specific mate for a dragon you already have, etc) we have the forum and that's always worked just fine.

 

Edit: Still need Pagination though, haha.

 

The fact that you linked the forums and not dragcave.net shows that the rules are not where they should be.

 

I'm sure people without a forum account will be excited to trade! ... until they get banned for rules that were only explicitly stated on the forums.

 

I also promise that adding a "trading hub rules" page with text would be 100x easier than coding up pagination. (or bothering with math and Magi cooldowns)

[Sextonator]

Instead of having a cool down for trades, maybe add in an edit button so mistakes can be fixed, but every edit causes all offers to be canceled automatically.

[HeatherMarie]

Why would editing it need to cancel offers? Just because I want to fix a typo or add info doesn't mean I *don't* want something that's already been offered. A lot of traders let offers sit for a bit to see if they get any other offers, canceling all offers automatically just because you want to fix a typo or something doesn't seem very helpful at all.

[49ER]

But if you are asking for something different the offers you have would be moot

[HeatherMarie]

But not all editing is because you are asking for something completely different, see my 'fix a typo or add info'. And if they *are* moot, then you can decline them yourself.

[49ER]

Well if you wanted what was offered there would be no need to edit, just accept it.  Anyway it was just an idea, nothing set in stone.

[ninish]

8 minutes ago, Sextonator said:

Instead of having a cool down for trades, maybe add in an edit button so mistakes can be fixed, but every edit causes all offers to be canceled automatically.

This sounds fantastic to me! 

If the forums have an edit function, and that effectively (or most of the time) prevents bumps, then I do believe editing would help. 

 

Also in the case where I have posted several things in different trades, like, 

 

-trade one1 (imagine 1 cb uncommon hatchie) :

Want: messy bsa hatchie, common Pygmy hatchie for freezing, 3g pb red copper. 

-trade 2: (imagine a 2g silver from aeon parent) 

Want: messy bsa hatchie, common Pygmy hatchie for freezing, 3g pb red copper. 

 

If I get offered the 3g pb red copper on one of those trades, I'll want to edit the other trade to delete that part of my 'wants', as I only need 1 3g pb copper. 

[Sextonator]

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

Why would editing it need to cancel offers? Just because I want to fix a typo or add info doesn't mean I *don't* want something that's already been offered. A lot of traders let offers sit for a bit to see if they get any other offers, canceling all offers automatically just because you want to fix a typo or something doesn't seem very helpful at all.

Usually typos are fixed right away, only in cases where it’s been there for awhile would it be a problem, but also in the case of dragons in the trade being changed, the users making offers would probably find the changes no longer valid.

[49ER]

Another point to make, if the edit doesn't cancel the offers then there is a potential for abuse where someone could offer something really rare for another rare and then go in, change to a common dragon on link and then go back and accept the rare offer.  I would really want my offers to drop off a tp link if it is changed.

[JavaTigress]

7 minutes ago, 49ER said:

Another point to make, if the edit doesn't cancel the offers then there is a potential for abuse where someone could offer something really rare for another rare and then go in, change to a common dragon on link and then go back and accept the rare offer.  I would really want my offers to drop off a tp link if it is changed.

I believe that was part of the suggestion... I assumed that is why it said that IF you edit, any offers automatically get canceled out.

[49ER]

Yes, but some are asking why the offers should drop off.

[HeatherMarie]

42 minutes ago, 49ER said:

Another point to make, if the edit doesn't cancel the offers then there is a potential for abuse where someone could offer something really rare for another rare and then go in, change to a common dragon on link and then go back and accept the rare offer.  I would really want my offers to drop off a tp link if it is changed.

 

I'm not sure I completely understand what you are saying? I thought we were talking about editing the Wants text, not editing the actual dragons involved in a trade. Of course if the dragons offered in the trade is changed then offers should be canceled, definitely. But not just if you edit the Want text.

[Dracaena]

The ban hammer swings.  The masses are confused.  The mods say it's all written there, but seems to be invisible ink.  The trade forums are deserted, the hub arrived broken with no cure in sight.  Any reference to the forum is forbidden in the hub yet the forum link at the top of the page stands.  People are running scared because they have a dragon on the top of the scroll with information about forum identity (which has been ok for years, but suddenly now a possible ban hammer target).  The death knell is in the trading forums and the sterile this only works for cb trade hub is all that's left. 

 

For the first time in a long time I wonder, to my surprise, if I still even want to play.  I spent hours catching up with what was posted from the day before in help and suggestions to even be aware of all these things, yet took a very short time to catch up on trade posts.  If I am to be banned for saying "see Dracaena's trade post for details" on a public trade (my scroll name is different) then there remains little here to hold me.  With all the new breeds (which is wonderful) it gets harder and harder to find people working on the same lineages.  With the hub here fewer and fewer people even visit the trade forum and I am forbidden to say what I need in the hub.  'Tis very sad that an "update to site" is more effective in driving me away then the miserable view bombers who've had me hiding my scroll for the past month.

 

One must be very careful what one wishes for,  you just might get it.

[TJ09]

9 hours ago, Azarkiel said:

 

The fact that you linked the forums and not dragcave.net shows that the rules are not where they should be.

 

I'm sure people without a forum account will be excited to trade! ... until they get banned for rules that were only explicitly stated on the forums.

 

I also promise that adding a "trading hub rules" page with text would be 100x easier than coding up pagination. (or bothering with math and Magi cooldowns)

The linked post that you say is not in the right place directly quotes exactly what's on the site. That is, the rules in that post are already where they should be.

 

The one thing in that post that is not already on the site is "haves," which I specifically called out as "this is an exception being granted until the feature supports it." Which is to say, it's not going to be codified in the rules, it's just going to be properly supported in the feature. A single glance at the trading hub will show you plenty of trades already including haves, so it seems to be pretty obvious to people that it's an okay thing to do.

 

12 hours ago, olympe said:

Well, a lot is unclear about them.

1. "Haves" being acceptable.
2. Status of Influence/Precognition probably being acceptable.
3. Any kind of direct user-to-user communication ("XX, want to accept - you're locked!") being unacceptable.
4. Any kind of requests for communication being unacceptable.
5. Any kind of link being unacceptable.
6. Any kind of indirect on-site link (group "need mates") being unacceptable.

 

To bring up my prompt from the help thread here as well: given the text "help others understand what types of offers you are looking for," can you please explain what how you find it unclear whether "want to accept - you're locked" does/does not "help others understand what types of offers you are looking for." In my interpretation, it does not give me any information about what to offer except maybe "don't offer; I'm going to ignore this trade because it's low signal/irrelevant to almost every single person who uses the trading hub." Similarly, the phrase "PM for wishlist" does not tell me what you're looking for, nor does the text "dragcave.net/group/1338" Those things only have meaning if someone goes and does something else.

 

If the fact that your wants must be standalone is the main thing would help explain that the text "PM for <x>" does not "help others understand what types of offers you are looking for," that's fairly easy to add.

 

I will point out that the only case(s) where someone was banned for links in a description have pretty obvious evidence that the person knew what they were doing e.g. someone tried to submit a full link, saw their message was rejected, then went out of their way to remove the "http" to bypass that and submit a link anyways. And regardless of that, I have yet not banned anyone for linking to on-site groups, though I maintain it is indeed against the rules-as-written (per above).

 

1 minute ago, Dracaena said:

The ban hammer swings.  The masses are confused.  The mods say it's all written there, but seems to be invisible ink.  The trade forums are deserted, the hub arrived broken with no cure in sight.  Any reference to the forum is forbidden in the hub yet the forum link at the top of the page stands.  People are running scared because they have a dragon on the top of the scroll with information about forum identity (which has been ok for years, but suddenly now a possible ban hammer target).  The death knell is in the trading forums and the sterile this only works for cb trade hub is all that's left. 

 

For the first time in a long time I wonder, to my surprise, if I still even want to play.  I spent hours catching up with what was posted from the day before in help and suggestions to even be aware of all these things, yet took a very short time to catch up on trade posts.  If I am to be banned for saying "see Dracaena's trade post for details" on a public trade (my scroll name is different) then there remains little here to hold me.  With all the new breeds (which is wonderful) it gets harder and harder to find people working on the same lineages.  With the hub here fewer and fewer people even visit the trade forum and I am forbidden to say what I need in the hub.  'Tis very sad that an "update to site" is more effective in driving me away then the miserable view bombers who've had me hiding my scroll for the past month.

 

One must be very careful what one wishes for,  you just might get it.

 

Less than half a percent of people who have used the trading hub have been banned, and those who have were pretty obvious cases (e.g. multiple messages of "LOL" or "this is fun" and the like). There's a lot of "but what if it happens to me?" based on levels of pedantry that simply don't apply to the trading hub—if the rules were really that strict hundreds of people would've been banned by now just for posting "have: X" which is clearly not a "want."

 

It's pretty clear that a lot of the fear could be assuaged by more verbose rules, and they're going to be updated. Finding the right wording requires first understanding what people aren't reading about the current text.

[TJ09]

13 hours ago, osmarks said:

Bumping should be fixed by pagination and not stupidly excessive punishment for a thing which is mostly done legitimately.

 

Pagination does not fix bumping. It may make it easier to ignore, but the first page of trades that everyone sees when they enter the trading hub is still better real estate than page 2.

 

13 hours ago, olympe said:

Punishment because people are abusing the feature? And I gave a lore-related reason in the first post I came up with the idea: Magical backlash - because the tele-portal had to be taken down unexpectedly.

At the very least, let's take the one magi that did get used for a teleport that got magically cancelled on cooldown. At the very, very least. Because auto-cancelled teleports already do that anyway.

I don't think affecting other magis for the sake of punishment is a really good limitation. Something like putting the magi on cooldown if cancelling after 5 minutes (i.e. providing a window where mistakes can be corrected) seems a bit more reasonable. I don't see evidence of many trades by the same person getting created/cancelled that close together.

 

Perhaps public trades don't show up within those first five minutes, either.

[DarkEternity]

Any chance of expanding the character limit for the wants box a little bit?

[Aalbiel]

Okay, but.... Is there any reason pagination hasn't been implemented yet? Even if you think it's not a perfect solution to everything (fair), what is the downside? It doesn't take deliberation or careful rewording like you mentioned for the rules, and as far as I'm aware it wouldn't be difficult to set up as the trades that fall off the first page are clearly still indexed.

[Sazandora]

And really, there's no reason to not implement pagination. It doesn't hurt anything, many people have been asking for it, and it really could help trades not disappear into the nether after a while.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

We really need rules TJ on the hub. Because half the time all I see is: "free" or "free but offer any hatchi". If it's "free just offer a dummy" that's perfectly fine and understandable. But having to go to the forums to read the supposed rules is a hassle. Not everyone is going to want to go through the forums to read the rules. 

 

Another concern of mine is if User A has something I want but they don't have a forum account or has a different name from their scroll name (like me) how am I supposed to contact them to negotiate a trade?