Trading Hub Feedback

[osmarks]

@HeatherMarie I don't want to spend ages viewing hatcheries just to be able to trade for some eggs which are buried deep in the mists of unpaginated hub.

[Fuzzbucket]

33 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

The only egg that is actually a challenge to unlock is the ND egg. I'm only at 3/5 and I've been looking for 8 months ><

 

Keep an eye on the encyclopaedia helpers thread - quite often people post their dead ones there to help out - and those count.

[Aalbiel]

21 minutes ago, osmarks said:

@HeatherMarie I don't want to spend ages viewing hatcheries just to be able to trade for some eggs which are buried deep in the mists of unpaginated hub.

 

It's really, really not ages. You only need to click 5. On Hatching Club there is a View All option which shows all eggs and hatchies currently in that hatchery. I've even managed to unlock Hellhorse hatchie entries this way pretty damn quickly, and that is a LOT more than 5 that you need to click. Trading Hub, for me, is more of a side help for unlocking Encyclopedia entries, if you happen to see one then click it, but I wouldn't use it as a main method of unlocking for sure.

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Aalbiel

[HeatherMarie]

Technically, everyone who uses hatcheries to grow their own dragons *should* have at least one hatchery refreshing in the background as often as they can, since those hatcheries depend on people doing that. So, if you are doing your part to help other's dragons while yours are in the hatchery, it doesn't seem like a huge deal to tab over to the hatchery every so often and click a few eggs. (I'm sure this is probably harder to do if you only use mobile, but it's not impossible that way either.) It doesn't take a huge amount of time, when I was unlocking the majority of the Encyclopedia I actually did it the harder way because I didn't think about the hatcheries (I went through 100s of pages of other people's scrolls, goodness), but using hatcheries is much simpler. When people post in the Encyclopedia Helpers thread asking about specific eggs I often go look at a few hatcheries to see if any of those eggs are around, there is almost *always* at least one or two eggs of pretty much every single breed except Neglecteds. 

 

Of course none of that means we *should* have to unlock Encyclopedia stuff in order to use such important features as the Trading Hub and Market. But it's really not some horribly difficult thing to do.

[StarSea]

On 7/30/2018 at 4:07 PM, Starscream said:

I know most people want every point written out, or else they state: It wasn't in the rules. (This is why you find cups of coffee with "Warning hot"(No, I thought i was getting fresh brewed cold coffee)

That's not actually why there are hot warnings.... McDonalds was brewing their coffee insanely hot, and serving it like that, which they shouldn't have been. My point is that warnings are there for generally unexpected things, like your coffee actually being hot enough to burn you badly and leave scars... We don't want to get burns (metaphorical) because things we don't expect are against the rules. Yes, writing song lyrics being against the rules should be obvious, so no, we don't need that specifically written out on the "Do not do" list. But other mods have said that they do consider going "X person, I didn't mean to reject your offer" as misuse, but you just said you wouldn't consider that misuse. That is why we want points written out.
It's not just for our sake alone in the end, because any staffing team should be on the same page and understanding as the rest of the team. Without an actual set of rules, even right now you guys are sharing opposing opinions. We shouldn't have to suffer bans from the Trading Hub or repercussions because you guys aren't on the same page and some of the mods think that something shouldn't be allowed, and we don't need a list of every single little thing that isn't allowed. But if you're brewing your coffee way too hot and serving it that way, we need warnings.

[Ruby Eyes]

7 minutes ago, StarSea said:

McDonalds was brewing their coffee insanely hot, and serving it like that, which they shouldn't have been.

Fresh coffee IS hot, otherwise it's not fresh coffee. But you can read more about that here: http://www.stellaawards.com/stella.html

But I observed on my own what they call "coffee" in the USA nowadays, 4 years ago. It looked like the what you get after letting cleaning liquid run through an EMPTY coffee maker - just dirty water. You just cannot make coffee with cold or lukewarm water.

Needless to say, I refused to pay for that.

 

Generally, there will always be people looking for loopholes in rules where common sense should suffice to tell you that it's not going to work that way. Those are sometimes people finding themselves with a burnt scroll, disabled naming feature, or here with a disabled public trading option. *shrugs*

[Aalbiel]

Yo, it's not a goddamn loophole to want to signal to someone that you want to accept their offer but can't because they're egglocked. If it's against the rules, fine, just write it in then. Some things don't need saying because they're common sense, like don't write insults in the Wants box, or even song lyrics that are irrelevant to the trade. But for anything relevant to the trade, it is very much subjective what is or isn't misuse. Most modern countries have a legal principle stating "ignorance of the law is no excuse", which means you are expected to know the rules, that is your duty, to inform yourself. The other side of that coin is that the law must be freely available to anyone to read, else they cannot be held to it.

 

This is not a justice court or anything, but the fact that that principle has been in effect since Roman law tells us that it's really common sense that rules should be written down before they can be applied.

[HeatherMarie]

While it's fine to want to know what the rules are, DC does have a history of *not* spelling out exactly what is and isn't okay, and it really hasn't been too huge of a deal.... Look at naming, for example. The warning on naming says:

Warning: Giving an inappropriate name to your dragon may result in disciplinary action, such as the death of the dragon, removal of all names on your account, or the permanent loss of the ability to name dragons.

 

It does not say *what* exactly is inappropriate, there is no list of words that would get your name privileges taken away or anything like that. You just have to use common sense. It's *usually* common sense that if there is a warning about inappropriate names, then you probably shouldn't use racial slurs or curse words or sex terms, for example. There is no comprehensive list, you just have to be cautious, and if you are on the fence about something then ask.

 

I don't really understand why the Want box is so much different... Common sense would tell me that random song lyrics are definitely not a part of 

Enter a message to help others understand what types of offers you are looking for.

and will probably get you in trouble. If you are uncertain about something, ask. It's been established that direct communication to another user is not okay, which makes sense because it is *not* 'helping others understand what types of offers you are looking for'. Some people have tried to argue that telling someone they want to accept their offer but can't for whatever reason would actually fall under that area, but it's been established that's not true, and if you take it at face value it says 'help *others*' ie a message to one specific person is not okay.

 

Maybe the text should be tweaked to make it more obvious that the Want box is *only* for what sorts of offers you want. Maybe there should be a link to the forums if you have questions about what is and isn't allowed. But I really don't see why it's necessary to come up with some sort of do-and-don't list. DC has never worked like that.

[Ruby Eyes]

20 minutes ago, Aalbiel said:

Yo, it's not a goddamn loophole to want to signal to someone that you want to accept their offer but can't because they're egglocked. If it's against the rules, fine, just write it in then. Some things don't need saying because they're common sense, like don't write insults in the Wants box, or even song lyrics that are irrelevant to the trade.

I'm totally with you on that - I mostly had the lyrics lovers in mind when I mentioned the loopholes. Sadly, I'm not in a position to declare what's okay and what's not when it comes to modly actions.

[Fuzzbucket]

The cookies are wrong. (You know who you are..)

[Kaini]

1 hour ago, Aalbiel said:

Yo, it's not a goddamn loophole to want to signal to someone that you want to accept their offer but can't because they're egglocked.

 

Yes, it is. As HeatherMarie said, direct communication to another user on the site is not okay (for reasons outside TJ's control) so yea, it's a loophole.

 

That's what the forum is for.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Kaini
duh getting people confused

[Moonlight_Eevee]

Just wanting to point out that there are in fact users who can have a scroll and not have a forum tbh

[Fuzzbucket]

This is absolutely true - and sadly, they will just have to live with it.

 

Or do as my grandson does and have ME post when he needs to do something (see under z balloons !)

 

It is exactly the thing about COPPA - there are many players under 13 who really should not be here; I wouldn't want my 12 y/o (IF I still had such a thing) seeing a lot of the posts here.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

Well, not even that but they could have gone years without a forum profile and now there's this trading hub to trade stuff and we find people who has stuff we want and no real way to contact them *shrug* we're just going to have to live without a messaging system because why should they feel pressured into getting a forum profile?

[Fuzzbucket]

We have to live with it because a) they may not WANT to be on forum (I know a lot of serious players who don't want to be here) and b) because of COPPA.

 

So we miss out on some trades we can't track. It's not the end of the world. You make the offers you can, and if you miss out on some - stuff happens.

[Whirlaway]

Aren't the rules that DC isn't for anyone under 13 though? So COPPA has nothing to do with it? TJ more or less said it's due to a non-competing clause in his actual day job, in this thread.  https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/183317-messaging-system-on-dragcave-website/?do=findComment&comment=9724816 and https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/183317-messaging-system-on-dragcave-website/?do=findComment&comment=9725141

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

As I posted the other day:
 

Quote

 

COPPA imposes certain requirements on operators of websites or online services directed to children under 13 years of age, and on operators of other websites or online services that have actual knowledge that they are collecting personal information online from a child under 13 years of age.

 

 

DC allows people under the age of 13 with parental consent, and anyway it is a site that is very likely to attract people under that age. And the fact that a child signs up where they shouldn't and its parents didn't know is no defence for the website in law. Sock said ages ago that we have to assume under 13s are in the game and even here.

 

 

But if it's his day job - that's fair enough too. I didn't see this post as suggesting that, but you did.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[HeatherMarie]

I really hope the idea of an (automatic?) message sent to an offerer when they are locked doesn't fall under the 'can't be supported' messaging umbrella. If it's automated, like a button you can click or something, that doesn't count as actual social-messaging, does it? I'd just really like an offerer to *know* that I'm declining their trade because it won't let me accept it, not because I don't want that offer. Definitely *don't* want any sort of direct messaging system, but something that tells the offerer they are locked would be so nice. Even if it's not instigated by the trader.... Maybe something like, if you offer on a trade that can't be accepted because it'd put you over limits, there could be a message when you offer stating that? Not blocking you from offering, since maybe things will hatch/grow any moment, but just informing you? 

[Shadowdrake]

 

6 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

if you offer on a trade that can't be accepted because it'd put you over limits, there could be a message when you offer

I think this is a fair solution since automated messages from the site itself probably aren't any form of social, although I have to admit I thought this was the original idea instead of "accept button no longer works for the trader". And if we could pick and choose what we want from an offer then there's no more need to go back and forth with messages (except for accidental declines or cancels but those could be easily prevented with any sort of confirmation.)

 

 

Is anyone here actually lawyered up enough to argue the specifics of whatever COPPA allows or how much leeway TJ's job has? I doubt it, TJ's the only one who can decide whether or not he can and we all know he hates making statements in the positive since we all take it as a "Yes I will" instead of a "Yes I can". So I expect there won't be any say either way, beyond that confirmation of Confused Cat's post.

 

Also no, DC does not allow kids under 13 to sign up even with parental permission. Hasn't for years. There's only one checkbox on the sign up page (other than T&C) and it explicitly only allows folks 13 or older.

[olympe]

31 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

I really hope the idea of an (automatic?) message sent to an offerer when they are locked doesn't fall under the 'can't be supported' messaging umbrella. If it's automated, like a button you can click or something, that doesn't count as actual social-messaging, does it? I'd just really like an offerer to *know* that I'm declining their trade because it won't let me accept it, not because I don't want that offer. Definitely *don't* want any sort of direct messaging system, but something that tells the offerer they are locked would be so nice. Even if it's not instigated by the trader.... Maybe something like, if you offer on a trade that can't be accepted because it'd put you over limits, there could be a message when you offer stating that? Not blocking you from offering, since maybe things will hatch/grow any moment, but just informing you? 

That won't help in case of someone who offers first and fills up their scroll later - maybe even through a different trade going through. I'd much rather have a notification of the sort "PlayerX tried to accept your offer on trade [link], but you already have plenty of eggs/hatchlings to take care of." Or something similar that is very close to the overburdened message when hunting.

[HeatherMarie]

1 minute ago, olympe said:

That won't help in case of someone who offers first and fills up their scroll later - maybe even through a different trade going through. I'd much rather have a notification of the sort "PlayerX tried to accept your offer on trade [link], but you already have plenty of eggs/hatchlings to take care of." Or something similar that is very close to the overburdened message when hunting.

 

Yeah, I thought of that when I was typing and was going to suggest a notice showing up if you have an offer pending and you lock yourself, but I thought maybe someone would object to that. I'm not sure how a notice about 'tried to accept your offer' would work though, since the accept button is greyed-out so there is no 'trying'. If the greyed-out button was tweaked to accommodate this suggestion though, that'd be great.

[Shadowdrake]

2 minutes ago, olympe said:

I'd much rather have a notification of the sort "PlayerX tried to accept your offer on trade [link], but you already have plenty of eggs/hatchlings to take care of." 

Since TJ already blocked the accept button from trying for locked trades he'd either have to revert the change (perhaps with a caution sign on trader's end to indicate the lock) or add a new button on the trade which just falls under Marie's automated button idea.

[olympe]

Maybe instead of the greyed-out accept button, there could be a letter symbol that would send an automated "would like to accept your offer, but you're locked" message to the person who is locked?

[Fuzzbucket]

8 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

Also no, DC does not allow kids under 13 to sign up even with parental permission. Hasn't for years. There's only one checkbox on the sign up page (other than T&C) and it explicitly only allows folks 13 or older.

 

When my grandson signed up - years ago, I asked a mod if he could play - who told me it was OK as long as his parent said OK. She did; he did. He was 11 at the time.

 

There is in fact at least one member here who actually refers in posts to the fact that she is 12 years old. (she's probably 13 by now - just checked, but certainly wasn't when she posted that.)

[olympe]

Maybe we could figure out what kinds of automated messages we would like, instead of whether or not TJ is right in his stance in regards to COPPA? Because when TJ has his mind set on something, there's usually no arguing with him anyway.

 

Personally, I think that the need for communication can be reduced significantly with changes to how teleport works. Especially the thing about accepting only part of a trade, and/or allowing us to find out the gender status of an ungendered hatchling (using our own dragons to precog a trade? Showing results of influence/precog in a trade? Both? This could also reduce scamming.)

 

What we'd still need, though, is this:

• I want to accept your trade, but you don't have enough room on your scroll.  (Letter symbol beside the greyed-out accept button?)

Maybe also a change to how rejected offers are handled. Instead of deleting them completely, keep them in the trade, maybe on the bottom and greyed-out, with a letter symbol on the side that sends the following message:

• I accidentally rejected your trade. Please offer again!

The latter could also be time-restricted, as in it needs to be sent within 10 minutes of rejection.

 

Is there anything else that happens semi-regularly and needs to be addressed?