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olympe

Suggestions regarding DR

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5 hours ago, High Lord November said:

 

Do you mean people have unrealistically high standards for what constitues "ready for release"?

 

Really it's just been this release where I've seen it bad. Normally they're full of praise and excitement, with a fair and low amount of critique. The releases are essentially also the public critique stage, so the fact this one is so full of it means there's something off with the release, not just that people are whiny criers who will never be satisfied. Also reducing concepts down to one active per person.

 

If that's the case, I dare you to look at the adult sprite in question and tell me in all seriousness that there is nothing wrong with it. Seriously, the nitpicking in DR is incredibly intense these days - and not only from the site artist. And, to be quite frank, I think the Pyrovar should have been resketched directly after lining because of the many issues even I, as a non-artist, can see plain as day. And this doesn't even cover the shading, because I suck at that. (And even so, I can tell it's not quite ideal.)

 

That being said, I do remember at least one case where the sprites were critiqued quite heavily and got an edit of the one obvious mistake soon after. Remember the drama surrounding the Shadow Walker release? Post-release criticism, even heavy criticism, is nothing new. 

 

I remember two other releases where I felt critique was in order, and I could name the one thing I have serious issues with easily. Again, one single thing. Pyrovars, on the other hand - well, I see several. And it seems like I'm not the only one. Punishing forum members by removing DR because they internalized the gold standards of the in-cave artists and express their disappointment when seeing a non-public concept released that doesn't even come close to meeting them doesn't help anything but the ego of the artist(s) feeling unjustly critiqued.

Edited by olympe
Edited due to artist's demand. Not a request.

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48 minutes ago, Alrexwolf said:

Saying that because people can't draw or lack the skill of what would be considered acceptable for in-cave they should be denied a chance to participate in something fun for the rest of us is super exclusionary and frankly quite rude. Just because someone can't draw doesn't mean they have nothing of value to input to the site as far as new dragons/ideas go? yeesh. 

 

Realistically? Only so many dragons can get added to the site and there are far MORE people who can think of an interesting concept than there are people both able and willing to produce art. It's not that they don't deserve it or can't add anything of value, it's just a numbers game for pragmatic reasons. That's why I said "and make a thread of 'free ideas' for the people who are desperate enough to want someone else to art their concept": desperate was a poor word choice, but if someone isn't the right mix of passionate about their concept and willing to hand over control to someone who can actually make a finished product, then yeah, maybe they don't need to try to rope someone into making it for them.

 

22 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

This is actually an honest question, why is there a private sprite submission area in the first place?

Why are some concepts sheltered from the criticisms of the users until after they're done and in the cave? I know that's probably not the intention for it's existence (because it would defeat the point of even having submissions be public) but that's what it seems to be doing from our perspective.

 

Because... surprising the userbase is fun? Themed sets can actually be made? Because most sites don't make all their content visible and open to critique before it's released? It'd be a better idea to get rid of public DR than to ban private submissions, trust me.

Edited by TCA

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I would rather see private submissions gone and have holiday dragons picked from thematic dragons (i.e., TJ could pick Aurora Dragons for Christmas) that have been gone for a longer amount of time (perhaps 120 days or even a full year) from the DR public area.

 

Every sprite should be held to the same standard; bar none. That standard should be what the DR sprites go through - because it is rigorous and it makes for a beautiful product in the end. Not that private submissions can't be beautiful in their own right - but public input is important when your ultimate goal IS a public release.

 

I don't care about surprises. I was actually more happy to remember Freckleds than before I remembered what dragon it was. Seeing [name redacted] again this month absolutely made me beam. It made me so happy to see these concepts flourish under the crit hell of DR and make it to their rightful place in the cave. I don't care if I knew what they were - that didn't matter. Because knowing the sprite doesn't mean I can interact with it. I can't name it, I can't make breeding projects with it, and I certainly don't remember all the encyclopedia information. 

 

I find I appreciate the sprites a lot more when I know the process than when they're surprises. Because most of Dragon Cave isn't about one sprite. It isn't about the ~reveal~ or whatever. It's about getting good sprites for naming/breeding/collecting projects. At least, for me. It might be different if it was like... every day a new dragon was released. Then most of the appeal would be in the variety and surprise. But it doesn't happen often enough for the surprise to even matter, in my eyes. 

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11 minutes ago, olympe said:

Punishing forum members by removing DR because they internalized the gold standards of the in-cave artists and express their disappointment when seeing a non-public concept released that doesn't even come close to meeting them doesn't help anything but the ego of the artist(s) feeling unjustly critiqued.

 

Punishing the userbase is not why I think removing DR is a good idea. DR does not produce the results anybody wants.

 

DR artists want to produce quality art and get a dragon in-cave; instead, they suffer through crit hell only to have stuff sit for extended periods or even be booted back to DR for esoteric reasons.

In-cave artists want to see new artists grow and reach a point where they're ready to be released; instead, DR artists get discouraged and leave after extended periods of crit hell and failing to get a release.
Non-artist users want to see more new artists released; it ain't happening.

 

If a system is not producing the intended results... then doesn't it, like, logically follow that there's an innate flaw with the system? I'm hopeful that the recent changes will help some but to me they're kind of a band-aid.

Edited by TCA

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2 hours ago, Sextonator said:

That's... a good idea but then dr is a good platform for users to improve... but then not having to worry about nitpicking would be nice...

 

 

edit: @blockEdragon We wouldn't have the Guardian of Nature, the Sinos, the Xenos, any big projects without a private place. Users deserve surprises, and surprises can't be a surprise if they're not hidden or secret. And holidays, would you suggest holidays be public too?

 

Also, "Too many cooks spoil the soup." In both art and concepts.

Surprises are a one time thing and aren't some euphoric trip of joy and wonder, they're just kind of a thing.

And the dragons are already taken off the completed list where they cool off in order to be forgotten for a few months before release anyway and the ones that do remember aren't allowed to say what they exactly are, if I remember the rules correctly only vaguely saying "I remember this" at worst is allowed.

 

I am someone who largely doesn't care about surprises, I don't have a vendetta against them but I think going out of ones way and making sacrifices just to surprise people is wasteful and stupid, especially when there's already a system in place that hides the dragons for a minimum amount of time to help people forget.

 

 

P.S.

I don't know enough about the holiday process to give a answer I would be happy with. I never really payed attention to the system of implementation because they're not regular releases. All I know is that someone either PMs the concept directly TJ or it's private cave sprites only and both of those are just wild guesses.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alrexwolf said:

I would rather see private submissions gone and have holiday dragons picked from thematic dragons (i.e., TJ could pick Aurora Dragons for Christmas) that have been gone for a longer amount of time (perhaps 120 days or even a full year) from the DR public area.

 

Every sprite should be held to the same standard; bar none. That standard should be what the DR sprites go through - because it is rigorous and it makes for a beautiful product in the end. Not that private submissions can't be beautiful in their own right - but public input is important when your ultimate goal IS a public release.

 

I don't care about surprises. I was actually more happy to remember Freckleds than before I remembered what dragon it was. Seeing [name redacted] again this month absolutely made me beam. It made me so happy to see these concepts flourish under the crit hell of DR and make it to their rightful place in the cave. I don't care if I knew what they were - that didn't matter. Because knowing the sprite doesn't mean I can interact with it. I can't name it, I can't make breeding projects with it, and I certainly don't remember all the encyclopedia information. 

 

I find I appreciate the sprites a lot more when I know the process than when they're surprises. Because most of Dragon Cave isn't about one sprite. It isn't about the ~reveal~ or whatever. It's about getting good sprites for naming/breeding/collecting projects. At least, for me. It might be different if it was like... every day a new dragon was released. Then most of the appeal would be in the variety and surprise. But it doesn't happen often enough for the surprise to even matter, in my eyes. 

This (minus the stuff about holidays because again: I really just don't know)

Edited by blockEdragon

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4 minutes ago, TCA said:

*SNIP*

Non-artist users want to see more new artists released; it ain't happening.

 

If a system is not producing the intended results... then doesn't it, like, logically follow that there's an innate flaw with the system? I'm hopeful that the recent changes will help some but to me they're kind of a band-aid.

 

This is ABSOLUTELY untrue. Kennon was a new artist in March. Everyone was so happy. Everyone was so proud of Kennon and I saw nothing but joy at a DR dragon being released; perhaps crits on the quality/it being released ahead of others, but everyone was happy for Kennon. 

 

Honestly I hadn't seen such a happy release in a long time. It's proof positive that the process isn't the problem; the community is happy to help in DR and loves to see the results. The process is not the problem, it's actually something that the userbase quite likes. 

I really admire when in-cave artists work in DR; Corteo and Playdoh are two spriters I've seen working on a few concepts (Oracles & Sylvans) and by gosh I think it's some of my favorite work from them? What I see in DR is a better product even from in-cave artists in most cases.

The innate flaw isn't with the system. It's the fact that there's a huge back door that only certain sprites/artists can get through and that backlog clogs up the system and makes it look like it's not working. 

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19 minutes ago, olympe said:

If that's the case, I dare you to look at the adult sprite in question and tell me in all seriousness that there is nothing wrong with it. Seriously, the nitpicking in DR is incredibly intense these days - and not only from the site artist. And, to be quite frank, I think the Pyrovar should have been resketched directly after lining because of the many issues even I, as a non-artist, can see plain as day. And this doesn't even cover the shading, because I suck at that. (And even so, I can tell it's not quite ideal.)

 

That being said, I do remember at least one case where the sprites were critiqued quite heavily and got an edit of the one obvious mistake soon after. Remember this? latest?cb=20111103160131

I remember two other releases where I felt critique was in order, and I could name the one thing I have serious issues with easily. Again, one single thing. Pyrovars, on the other hand - well, I see several. And it seems like I'm not the only one. Punishing forum members by removing DR because they internalized the gold standards of the in-cave artists and express their disappointment when seeing a non-public concept released that doesn't even come close to meeting them doesn't help anything but the ego of the artist(s) feeling unjustly critiqued.

 

I was trying to clarify what TCA meant - not reflecting my own views. Critique in DR needs to strike a balance but shouldn't be removed. Public critique is good feedback and on DC I think it's rare but almost always justified when it comes up. Removing DR because of public critique really doesn't make sense, nor is it reasonable or fair. It's frustrating to see sprites with issues come out from private submissions and public sprites be held back due to high standards. I just want equal standards to apply between the two. 

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31 minutes ago, TCA said:

Because... surprising the userbase is fun? Themed sets can actually be made? Because most sites don't make all their content visible and open to critique before it's released? It'd be a better idea to get rid of public DR than to ban private submissions, trust me.

Honestly I fail to see at all how removing public DR would be more productive than removing the private area. Can you elaborate on this at all?

 

If one of the main issues with this release is that people are airing their criticisms that they couldn't express pre-release, how is the solution to effectively eliminate public pre-release criticism? I have no doubt that there is a critiquing process behind the scenes, but if we've already proven that the forum, outside the private area, can have harsh criticisms on something that has gone through the private section, putting everything behind closed doors would only open up every new release to the same kind of treatment.

Edited by Aviatus

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@Aviatus I know personally I have an easier time completing a dragon when I don't have to stop at each stage to post it, then fix any errors, repeatedly, until it's "done" then fix any last minute errors/nitpicks, continuously, until it's finally deemed worthy of being completed. It's frustrating, and I don't always have the time and temperament to deal with it. So I put things on hold, sometimes I just want to quit. Sometimes, I start over, or at least want to start over. If dr wasn't under the public scrutiny, things certainly can be completed much sooner.

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4 minutes ago, Sextonator said:

@Aviatus I know personally I have an easier time completing a dragon when I don't have to stop at each stage to post it, then fix any errors, repeatedly, until it's "done" then fix any last minute errors/nitpicks, continuously, until it's finally deemed worthy of being completed. It's frustrating, and I don't always have the time and temperament to deal with it. So I put things on hold, sometimes I just want to quit. Sometimes, I start over, or at least want to start over. If dr wasn't under the public scrutiny, things certainly can be completed much sooner.

Is there a rule that a concept can't just be posted/updated when the spriter thinks they're done or just feels like posting at that time and THEN get the crits?

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1 minute ago, Sextonator said:

@Aviatus I know personally I have an easier time completing a dragon when I don't have to stop at each stage to post it, then fix any errors, repeatedly, until it's "done" then fix any last minute errors/nitpicks, continuously, until it's finally deemed worthy of being completed. It's frustrating, and I don't always have the time and temperament to deal with it. So I put things on hold, sometimes I just want to quit. Sometimes, I start over, or at least want to start over. If dr wasn't under the public scrutiny, things certainly can be completed much sooner.

True enough, having the creation process not be public would be faster, and likely less frustrating. However is it more frustrating to deal with the nitpicking during the request process, or deal with it after the release? The criticisms people have aren't going to disappear if DR is moved to be private, people are just going to express their issues after a dragon is released rather than before. That, in my opinion, opens the door for more toxicity than handling it beforehand

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7 minutes ago, Aviatus said:

Honestly I fail to see at all how removing public DR would be more productive than removing the private area. Can you elaborate on this at all?

 

If one of the main issues with this release is that people are airing their criticisms that they couldn't express pre-release, how is the solution to effectively eliminate public pre-release criticism? I have no doubt that there is a critiquing process behind the scenes, but if we've already proven that the forum, outside the private area, can have harsh criticisms on something that has gone through the private section, putting everything behind closed doors would only open up every new release to the same kind of treatment.

 

1 minute ago, Sextonator said:

I know personally I have an easier time completing a dragon when I don't have to stop at each stage to post it, then fix any errors, repeatedly, until it's "done" then fix any last minute errors/nitpicks, continuously, until it's finally deemed worthy of being completed. It's frustrating, and I don't always have the time and temperament to deal with it. So I put things on hold, sometimes I just want to quit. Sometimes, I start over, or at least want to start over. If dr wasn't under the public scrutiny, things certainly can be completed much sooner.

 

Basically this. The efficiency for artists who have proven they don't need to be babysat through every stage of spriting goes drastically up, and crits still happen without everyone on the site and their dog being allowed to give comments at every stage, including when it's matters of taste that are not objective flaws and don't actually have to be changed? People are ragging on the Pyrovars but despite their mixed reception, I had the opportunity to crit them and didn't because they are completely acceptable.

 

Plus, it gets rid of any perception of a double standard. All or nothing, right? Well, "all" is an awful idea when it comes to the idea of public critique of art and concepts, so "nothing" it is.

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3 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

Is there a rule that a concept can't just be posted/updated when the spriter thinks they're done or just feels like posting at that time and THEN get the crits?

Absolutely agreed.

 

Just because private submission is done away with doesn't mean artists can't do private work and post it for critique in DR after. If anything should go, it's private submissions.

 

You can't punish the public because they were negative about a sprite that absolutely has problems. I'm sorry but I just can't agree that it's not a flawed sprite. There's no need to get into it because it was all brought up in the other thread, but most people can plainly see its flaws. It doesn't mean the dragon is bad. It doesn't mean the artist is bad.

It just could have been avoided in the first place if everything went through DR. That pose likely never would have even made it out of the sketching stage as it is in a DR request - and that's what most people are having a problem with. 

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It really, really depends on if people are giving critique because there's a legitimate issue with the art, or if they're critiquing it because they can.

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5 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

Is there a rule that a concept can't just be posted/updated when the spriter thinks they're done or just feels like posting at that time and THEN get the crits?

No. There have been artists who have done this in the past when they have the art but lack descriptions or wanted to update due to cave standards. I worked with an artist a long time ago on a dragon that was pretty much done, but they went through and updated sprites following newer cave standards. But that was some years ago. Either way, artists can do this if they want.

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Just now, Sextonator said:

It really, really depends on if people are giving critique because there's a legitimate issue with the art, or if they're critiquing it because they can.

At that point it's the artists job to decide whether or not to take that crit into consideration. Criticism is the lifeblood of improvement but not all crits should be taken to heart.

 (see star wars criticism for an example of what a mixed bag critique can be, half of it's valid, half of it's vitriol and it's the creator's job to figure out what to do next)

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2 minutes ago, TCA said:

Basically this. The efficiency for artists who have proven they don't need to be babysat through every stage of spriting goes drastically up, and crits still happen without everyone on the site and their dog being allowed to give comments at every stage, including when it's matters of taste that are not objective flaws and don't actually have to be changed? People are ragging on the Pyrovars but despite their mixed reception, I had the opportunity to crit them and didn't because they are completely acceptable.

 

But this is my point exactly, there was a critiquing process behind the scenes and, for better or for worse, the public forum is finding issues where the private forum did not. Whether you agree with the criticisms or not, putting the art in the private section during the concept phase did not protect it from detractors, which leads me to.

 

Quote

Plus, it gets rid of any perception of a double standard. All or nothing, right? Well, "all" is an awful idea when it comes to the idea of public critique of art and concepts, so "nothing" it is.

 

You will not get "nothing". Every single dragon concept undergoes public critique, the question becomes is it criticized pre or post-release. If we don't want extensive post-release criticism, which this release proves can and will happen, then the only way to curb that is to move the criticism to pre-release, aka public DR.

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Thanks everyone for speaking your minds, you all made me realize a lot of things. I would be really sad to see DR go. I am always happy to see what everyone can come with. I too have 2 concepts in there, and it made me really happy when some beautiful people, as I consider them - Sparky, Mewtie, Sky, Sextonator and Grey (RWS) - decided to give a chance and "bring to life" those mere dreams of mine. 

 

I personally like the Pyrovars, and their uniqueness, though the pose make it's limbs look somehow awkward. I will not go in details because I'm not really the one who should talk, but overall they seem good to me. Truffles, on the other side, look like something that would've fit older releases. Mysfytt even confirmed that it was an old concept, so it's understandable. I don't mind, though, because there are dragons already in cave that have more errors, such as Stones and Albinos.

 

I do agree that sometimes it's rough for artists in DR, but I will never understand, unfortunately. Me and art don't get along, I tried practicing a lot, but I guess I'm in another domain, hehe.

 

All in all, hiding CL would be okay, but hiding DR would really sadden me, I'd rather see the inactive threads archived, even though there are a lot of beautiful ones such as Extrasensory and Aine.

 

This was all I had to say, I hope everything will play out in the end. I believe Mysfytt and JOTB felt a little bit of sadness seeing some harsh comments with no constructive crits whatsoever, but I see they did agree with the ones that had a point, brought up actual crits. Anyway, I think the new dragons will probably receive an update in the future, both sprite and description (on Trufflss, the later). We'll see :) Meanwhile I will wait for the Gusty :P

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4 minutes ago, Quetzals said:

All in all, hiding CL would be okay, but hiding DR would really sadden me, I'd rather see the inactive threads archived, even though there are a lot of beautiful ones such as Extrasensory and Aine.

+1 since I can't draw as well. It's not that I don't get along with art, but rather I'm a strict mobile user with no way of getting art/sketches up in here and then sprite them 

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Sure, hide the completed list if it could help with DRs getting into the game. But do NOT hide Dragon Requests itself -- it's not a valid way to get rid of sprites being nitpicked to death. They'd get criticized to pieces upon release instead. There has to be some kind of quality control around, and I have a feeling that making all requests private and hidden from the public eliminates that, or severely hampers it.

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Hm. I don't agree with restricting private submissions. I don't think that would solve anything, really. People who submit privately usually-- if not always-- already have their art go through critique; behind the scenes for artists, we share a lot of our work to get help on it. And even if we didn't-- Tj still decides if its good enough as-is. So regardless if it's submitted privately, there is still a quality control system in place, even if you can't see it. A lot of this art is worked on in private specifically because we don't want the public to see it ahead of time. Otherwise, we'd post our concepts in DR. 

I'm getting the vibe that people think private submission dragons are made exclusively by one person and submitted to TJ without any other pair of eyes landing on them. Which might be the case for a very, very small amount, but most of these dragons still go through crits by multiple in-cave artists; the same ones who critique in DR. And we nit-pick each other too, not just the ones in public view.

 

I think, though, that older concepts that are selected for release should be notified ahead of time (the artists, anyway) to give them a chance to update. Or at least notify in-cave artists to see if there is any last critique before a concept is released. This would be behind the scenes, so the public wouldn't get to see it, but it might help with this perception of a double standard. Again, not to say that we don't critique each other's work, but it would probably help prevent issues like this if there was an extra step, especially for art that was made years ago and likely not touched since. 

 

Edit: Also, I definitely agree about hiding the completed list. There's really no reason it needs to be viewable by the general public anyway.

 

Edited by hazeh

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I really just think we need more transparency from TJ. I can understand why artists want to avoid DR when people go insane over the tiniest perceived flaws or stylistic differences, but at the same time it's also not fair that people in DR have to be dragged through the mud by a hoard of howling nitpickers to be considered ready to go. 

 

I don't really have a good suggestion but I'd be very sad if DR was closed. Although I do agree that one topic per person is a good idea (probably not a retroactive change, but one to add whenever it reopens)

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54 minutes ago, hazeh said:

Hm. I don't agree with restricting private submissions. I don't think that would solve anything, really. People who submit privately usually-- if not always-- already have their art go through critique; behind the scenes for artists, we share a lot of our work to get help on it. And even if we didn't-- Tj still decides if its good enough as-is. So regardless if it's submitted privately, there is still a quality control system in place, even if you can't see it. A lot of this art is worked on in private specifically because we don't want the public to see it ahead of time. Otherwise, we'd post our concepts in DR. 

I'm getting the vibe that people think private submission dragons are made exclusively by one person and submitted to TJ without any other pair of eyes landing on them. Which might be the case for a very, very small amount, but most of these dragons still go through crits by multiple in-cave artists; the same ones who critique in DR. And we nit-pick each other too, not just the ones in public view.

But they're still not held to the same standards because the people creating and enforcing the standards of the public section aren't allowed to see or comment on the dragons at all until after the fact, causing an abnormal amount of negative comments because THAT is their public critique instead of before the release like it should be. It doesn't matter how much the artists critique each-other because it will still be an echo chamber compared to the public lists which have to go through a very harsh critique by anyone and everyone, often end up producing a better piece of art and writing, and don't get as many overall releases in spite of that.

 

I don't blame public artists for feeling like the victims of a double standard when a release sees the light of day, isn't as good as theirs, and then the artists have a meltdown because some people said a few "mean" things about their dragon after they went through a major crit-storm only to be ignored in favor of a somewhat generic dragon that didn't even meet public standards because it got a VIP pass. And then the users are frustrated because they watched a concept grow under pressure like a diamond only to be ignored in favor of a somewhat generic dragon that didn't even meet public standards because it got a VIP pass.

It might be more complected than that behind the scenes but that doesn't change that the separation frustrates people for tangible reasons and will continue to frustrate them until something meaningful is done.

Edited by blockEdragon

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@olympe can you please PLEASE stop posting the Shadow Walkers as an example of immediate sprite updates? They were an exception and should never be considered as a model. Just, whatever point you're trying to make with those, don't. Ever.

 

They do not. in any way. apply to this situation and I resent them being brought into this.

 

And the crit I received from the user base at that time was harsh and unnecessary and nearly made me quit the game. That wasn't what prompted the rework. You guys are worse over this current release.

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