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olympe

Suggestions regarding DR

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I think a sticky with enough fair warning that threads will be hidden/deleted is fine. 

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12 minutes ago, Infinis said:

we can make a sticky with that information, is what i meant.

 

Okay. As long as it's somewhere visible. That was more my point than anything.

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I still really think hiding the cl is a great idea. Does there need to be a vote or anything to get it hidden?

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I vote we simply hide the CL as well

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Yep, I'm for it. Hiding the CL will benefit everyone in the long run.

Edited by Naraku

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I concur.

 

Also - given the already massive backlog - would it be smart to restrict people to ONE active project rather than two ?

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Then the active threads would go down by half. and the backlog would be even longer.

 

I feel like a lot of people have 2 threads active already.

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I mean the backlog of completed dragons that are already far too many for there to be any chance they will be released.

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Well, we don’t have much of a backlog anymore, but with hiding the cl, the wait times on releasing a dragon will be shorter, and public dragons can be released sooner.

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You mean there aren't many completed dragons in CL waiting to be released ?

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I think what Fuzzbucket is trying to convey is that the formerly completed concepts that got moved back into DR can be "cleaned" (eg. moved to a separate place in case the conceptor/artist wants to revive it). Because for most of them, it's quite unlikely they'll be reworked to the current standards. Personally, I'd go so far as to suggest you artists go look at what's there and could be considered to be meeting current DC standards and be moved back to CR again. I'm sure there are some concepts that could work out for DC.

 

@Fuzzbucket: Currently, there are merely 11 concepts on the CL, as far as I know. Of course, there's also the hidden CL from the artists-only section that I wouldn't know squat about...

Edited by olympe

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That's part of it.

 

But there must also be an enormous number which were deemed completed and are now hidden from the CL but  haven't made it into the cave. Because even I (who don't pay a lot of attention to be honest) can remember several that were listed as complete that no longer show up in CL - and we all know they vanish for a good long while before they make it into cave, if they ever do. How many are there behind the curtain ?

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I’m not sure how many could be behind the curtain, but any that were on the completed list but disappeared before the cl cleaning, are more than likely not coming out if they haven’t been released yet. The purge happened because none of the then completed dragons were cave ready, and they’ll need reworking/polishing to be cave ready.

 

The bigger issue with that though is that many artists have disappeared. They’re no longer active and can’t be reached, so those concepts will either need to be scrapped, or if there’s any artist willing to give it a go, redone from the ground up, with or without the original concepter.

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I've stalked CL since it's cleaning and I've only seen 15 concepts moved there. Freckleds, first to get moved and also got released, and 14 others, from which 3 got removed recently (some may know but avoid to say the name). 

 

I didn't count some concepts that were moved back in DR, like Sylvans, by the way.

 

Plus, everything that's taken out of CL is meant for release, I'm pretty sure. If not, I think they would be left in CL until their time comes. Take the 2nd moved DR, the Blue-Nosed Pygmies. Moved in October 2017. They could've been hidden after 60 days, but they were not, hence why I think that the way CL works now is different. 

Edited by Quetzals
60 days not months XD

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I believe the concepts in CL are only hidden now if they are going to be released. Three of the more recently moved breeds have vanished, and those are the only public CLs I know that have been moved out of CL and into 'soon to be released' limbo. The only backlog in CLs is that of the unknown number of private ones, I'm guessing.

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Yeah, I think now they'll get kicked back to dr if they need any kind of reworking.

 

And with so few completed, I feel that hiding the cl is super important now, so that people don't talk about what's gone missing, or which ones, even tho it's actually pretty exciting.

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Just get rid of DR, it gives people unrealistic expectations about what constitutes "ready for release" and how to get a sprite in-cave/how to best prioritize critique and revisions. Replace it with a formal application process for new spriters and a sort of 'free concepts' thread if someone is that desperate to get someone else to make their dragon that they can't draw. If nothing else, it'd help with people's attitudes regarding new releases.

 

At least, that's what I'd want to see happen. I mean, hiding the completed list would be okay too.

Edited by TCA

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hey so I'm back to this thread again and literally I think if TJ would just give more input or give the spriters specific guidelines to critique on that they all agree on as a group we wouldn't have a problem.

 

There are several dragons sitting in DR right now that would be perfectly fine to move on, all things considered - but TJ's policies or nitpicks on lore or whatever else are keeping them chained to DR instead of moving them onto the CL where they can potentially start their time.

 

Clamskimmers were stuck in Lore Hell for awhile and now it looks like they're going to be stuck in no one can ever see this dragon ever within x days of it moving to CL it must be Sacred it must be Pure it must be untouched hell. Oracle Wyrms are one of the most beautiful requests out there and honestly if DR standards weren't so ridiculously high they could probably move to the CL as they are. Elven dragons (sylvan dragons) had little wrong with them to begin with compared to what TJ deems as okay for in-cave standards, yet TJ himself said they weren't up to par, even though they came from in-cave artists through DR. I could go on but you all get the point. 

 

This all come down to TJ's lack of clarity and communication with his expectations and his seeming waffling on what the standards even are for the cave. If TJ was more involved, such as giving any indication at any point in the process other than a yes or no at the end if they even get that, DR would be a much smoother process. Without TJ's input nothing matters. None of the artist's opinions matter. None of the public's crits matter. None of the lore crits, name crits, NONE of it matter because in the end it's TJ and TJ will do what he wants to do and we have no idea and the whole of DR starts to feel like a big waste of time and is very disheartening because of it.

 

thanks for coming to my ted talk

 

4 minutes ago, TCA said:

Just get rid of DR, it gives people unrealistic expectations about what constitutes "ready for release" and how to get a sprite in-cave/how to best prioritize critique and revisions. Replace it with a formal application process for new spriters and a sort of 'free concepts' thread if someone is that desperate to get someone else to make their dragon that they can't draw. If nothing else, it'd help with people's attitudes regarding new releases.

 

At least, that's what I'd want to see happen. I mean, hiding the completed list would be okay too.

 

Saying that because people can't draw or lack the skill of what would be considered acceptable for in-cave they should be denied a chance to participate in something fun for the rest of us is super exclusionary and frankly quite rude. Just because someone can't draw doesn't mean they have nothing of value to input to the site as far as new dragons/ideas go? yeesh. 

Edited by Alrexwolf

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I'm agreeing with TCA. DR has always been a mess. I think moving towards some sort of artist application is best. And then, if people have ideas, perhaps there could be a thread or forum where ideas can be posted, and artists accepted through the application process can pick up ideas they like? I don't know. It's an idea that needs to be fleshed out but one that I believe is needed.

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20 minutes ago, TCA said:

Just get rid of DR, it gives people unrealistic expectations about what constitutes "ready for release" and how to get a sprite in-cave/how to best prioritize critique and revisions. Replace it with a formal application process for new spriters and a sort of 'free concepts' thread if someone is that desperate to get someone else to make their dragon that they can't draw. If nothing else, it'd help with people's attitudes regarding new releases.

 

At least, that's what I'd want to see happen. I mean, hiding the completed list would be okay too.

 

Do you mean people have unrealistically high standards for what constitues "ready for release"?

 

Really it's just been this release where I've seen it bad. Normally they're full of praise and excitement, with a fair and low amount of critique. The releases are essentially also the public critique stage, so the fact this one is so full of it means there's something off with the release, not just that people are whiny criers who will never be satisfied. Also reducing concepts down to one active per person.

 

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The whole issue regarding the completed list V private list double standard has me thinking that maybe the private DR was a bad idea.

If everyone had to go through crit-storm there probably wouldn't be much of an issue, everyone would have a fair shot and be held to the same standards. I know that that means the public will likely remember some of the releases but secrecy isn't much of an issue anyway, people already remember concepts to begin with and a one time surprise isn't worth throwing away a perfectly good sprite.

 

This is actually an honest question, why is there a private sprite submission area in the first place?

Why are some concepts sheltered from the criticisms of the users until after they're done and in the cave? I know that's probably not the intention for it's existence (because it would defeat the point of even having submissions be public) but that's what it seems to be doing from our perspective.

Edited by blockEdragon

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31 minutes ago, TCA said:

Just get rid of DR, it gives people unrealistic expectations about what constitutes "ready for release" and how to get a sprite in-cave/how to best prioritize critique and revisions. Replace it with a formal application process for new spriters and a sort of 'free concepts' thread if someone is that desperate to get someone else to make their dragon that they can't draw. If nothing else, it'd help with people's attitudes regarding new releases.

 

At least, that's what I'd want to see happen. I mean, hiding the completed list would be okay too.

That's... a good idea but then dr is a good platform for users to improve... but then not having to worry about nitpicking would be nice...

 

 

edit: @blockEdragon We wouldn't have the Guardian of Nature, the Sinos, the Xenos, any big projects without a private place. Users deserve surprises, and surprises can't be a surprise if they're not hidden or secret. And holidays, would you suggest holidays be public too?

 

Also, "Too many cooks spoil the soup." In both art and concepts.

Edited by Sextonator

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4 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

The whole issue regarding the completed list V private list double standard has me thinking that maybe the private DR was a bad idea.

If everyone had to go through crit-storm there probably wouldn't be much of an issue, everyone would have a fair shot and be held to the same standards. I know that that means the public will likely remember some of the releases but secrecy isn't much of an issue anyway, people already remember concepts to begin with and a one time surprise isn't worth throwing away a perfectly good sprite.

 

This is actually an honest question, why is there a private sprite submission area in the first place?

Why are some concepts sheltered from the criticisms of the users until after they're done and in the cave? I know that's probably not the intention for it's existence (because it would defeat the point of even having submissions be public) but that's what it seems to be doing from our perspective.

I'd also be fine with getting rid of the private submissions area.

 

Really, whether it be an artist application or getting rid of a private submission area or whatever, everything needs to be put onto the same level.

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@blockEdragon Often holiday concept submissions that aren't selected go on to the artists'/private section and I assume they all go through their own critique process that just happens to be out of the public eye. 

 

While I would be sad to see the DR area go, I would understand just having an open call for artists every so often and a thread of possible concepts. It is disheartening to see things sit for years on end and then just never go anywhere. But I also think that just because people can't currently draw/sprite/whatever, doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to participate at all. 

 

I also truly think this is another instance where TJ needs to be more transparent and forthcoming about what constitutes being ready for in-cave status and to be more involved than popping in to say that something is not ready. I know he has been making strides and can't be on all the time, but there clearly is a huge disconnect going on. Having a fear of whether or not a new artist is "ready" (as TCA suggested) or at a certain artistic par is just not cutting it. 

Edited by Jazeki
Typo

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