Transparency in DC

[Fuzzbucket]

Oops it was the ones about viewbombing that were moved by a mod last night. Even so... Breeding is a CAVE thing not a FORUM thing. Not that I am not struggling with that too - Cassares and Bluebanded rule, rot them !

[angelicdragonpuppy]

5 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Oops it was the ones about viewbombing that were moved by a mod last night. Even so... Breeding is a CAVE thing not a FORUM thing. Not that I am not struggling with that too - Cassares and Bluebanded rule, rot them !

 

Fuzz, I think you're thinking of the forum feedback thread (where the viewbombing was brought up). This is the DC transparency thread.  

[Whirlaway]

This is about Dragon Cave in general, not just the forums.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Dorchet

[Fuzzbucket]

OKAY - but I thought.... well, OK never mind. Breeding issues aren't primarily transparency - especially now we know about the black box thing.

[HeatherMarie]

It would be nice if we *could* talk about the breeding issues in a separate thread and actually get responses about the issue, but we've tried that for a long time and have never gotten a response, which is why it was one of the things brought up here. While this thread's title says 'transparency', it seems to also be about general 'big issues that aren't getting any sort of response', and trying to get a response. While TJ's response about the 'black box' at least lets us know that changing breeding would be difficult (finally a response!), it still is an issue that affects many people and should definitely be talked about, whether here or elsewhere. 

[JavaTigress]

15 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

It would be nice if we *could* talk about the breeding issues in a separate thread and actually get responses about the issue, but we've tried that for a long time and have never gotten a response, which is why it was one of the things brought up here. While this thread's title says 'transparency', it seems to also be about general 'big issues that aren't getting any sort of response', and trying to get a response. While TJ's response about the 'black box' at least lets us know that changing breeding would be difficult (finally a response!), it still is an issue that affects many people and should definitely be talked about, whether here or elsewhere. 

*NODS* Which says to me that this issue has been a problem for a WHILE now... the communication problem< I mean.
 

SO... as I see it SORT of related ( if tangentially?) as one example of the source of the frustration and topic of this thread?

Edited February 15, 2018 by JavaTigress

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think transparency and communication are all getting at the same thing: something between TJ and the userbase hasn't clicked, and it's been that way for years. He feels more like a disinterested observer then the game's creator and operator. I know dozens of people on the forums that seem more invested in the game's pleasures and problems then the admin himself. 

 

If anyone hasn't taken a peek at Sockpuppet's scroll, I suggest doing so. This was a warning.

https://dragcave.net/user/SockPuppet Strangler

 

@Alrexwolf just put it in a great way in the Sweetling thread, too.

 

Quote

If he won't listen to anything in this thread, or any thread, what's the point? These are his dedicated users that have thought out practically any possibility for every suggestion. We (the userbase) have done the work FOR him on EVERY feature that's been suggested, from alt sweets to trader's canyon to every dragon request. We have come to a consensus to most issues in his absence in a way that makes the most amount of people happy, or at least the least amount of people unhappy. We've debated every part of everything because that's all we CAN do. All he has to do is LISTEN... and that's the problem.

 

There are a good many things the userbase would like to see improved in the game, and users have very carefully and lovingly crafted solutions that are almost always a net positive for everyone. People have spent literal years hashing out and refining some of these suggestions. And then TJ either doesn't respond at all, comments on one part of the suggestion but not the rest and then doesn't reply again for years, or gives answers that just aren't satisfactory and seem more grounded in wanting to stay the current course then in wanting to improve the game.

 

Don't get me wrong, DC is a fun game as-is, and would continue to operate just fine unchanged, as it has for years. BUT there is SO MUCH potential for it to be even greater, and attract more people, that seems to just be being pointlessly squandered.

[Alrexwolf]

Seeing Sock's scroll come up again is such a sad thing. I know even if a new global mod is chosen, we'll likely never get someone so willing to fight/debate/whatever you want to call it TJ OR the users. I feel Sock was very fair to both TJ and the userbase... but I feel like in a position where TJ won't generally tell the userbase anything, the job must have been grating. Sock struggled for so long to try to keep our needs & wants in mind while also balancing TJ's wants/ideas for his own game... Even the one time I got a warning Sock was very fair to me, even when I was upset and snipping back... always calm-headed and fair.

 

TJ could have learned a lot from Sock's example. Instead... it seems he lost the part of the staff that was so important for being so stubborn and secretive. Don't get me wrong; I love our moderators. However, they're at the mercy of their limited powers and the fact that there are more of them. Sock had the very helpful component that they werethe only active global mod for a long time; TJ couldn't really fire them the way he could a help section or chat moderator if he wished. I mean, he COULD have, but seeing as they were the only one, it would have been a headache... just as it was when he drove them to resign and continues to be.

 

I hope Sock's scroll is documented somewhere. I feel like killing off all those dragons is a real possibility. 

 

This sort of distrust is... exactly the problem TJ needs to be solving. I know I'm not alone in saying that it wouldn't surprise me if Sock's dragons in that memo were killed, or if TJ hired more global moderators but knocked their powers down... or never hired another one at all.  I was never even friends with Sock the way many people on the forums were, I hardly ever spoke with them except in debates on threads, but I miss them. TJ should follow their example. Sock was the leader we all needed, and I hope they know how important and loved they were in this community. 

[HeatherMarie]

This may be a tad off-topic, but it does have to do with communication between TJ and users, so... When the 2018 Happy Valentine's Day thread was first posted, I (and a few others) noticed what seemed like a mistake on TJ's post, something that has led to confusion. His OP says in part:

 

Quote

While you're at it, don’t forget to grab these new Valentine’s eggs. They’ll be around from now until the end of Feb. 17 (three full days), so get hunting.

 

But the beginning of the 14th to the end of the 17th is *four* days, not three. Given that it's always been three days in the past I'm assuming the '17' is the mistake here, but who really knows? Only TJ. And he has not responded to clarify what the actual cut-off time is. Given the severely limited timeframe of the release, prompt communication is sort of important here.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Alrexwolf said:

I hope Sock's scroll is documented somewhere. I feel like killing off all those dragons is a real possibility. 

 

It is. If you ever need it

[Millennium07]

3 hours ago, Alrexwolf said:

Seeing Sock's scroll come up again is such a sad thing. I know even if a new global mod is chosen, we'll likely never get someone so willing to fight/debate/whatever you want to call it TJ OR the users. I feel Sock was very fair to both TJ and the userbase... but I feel like in a position where TJ won't generally tell the userbase anything, the job must have been grating. Sock struggled for so long to try to keep our needs & wants in mind while also balancing TJ's wants/ideas for his own game... Even the one time I got a warning Sock was very fair to me, even when I was upset and snipping back... always calm-headed and fair.

 

TJ could have learned a lot from Sock's example. Instead... it seems he lost the part of the staff that was so important for being so stubborn and secretive. Don't get me wrong; I love our moderators. However, they're at the mercy of their limited powers and the fact that there are more of them. Sock had the very helpful component that they werethe only active global mod for a long time; TJ couldn't really fire them the way he could a help section or chat moderator if he wished. I mean, he COULD have, but seeing as they were the only one, it would have been a headache... just as it was when he drove them to resign and continues to be.

 

I hope Sock's scroll is documented somewhere. I feel like killing off all those dragons is a real possibility. 

 

This sort of distrust is... exactly the problem TJ needs to be solving. I know I'm not alone in saying that it wouldn't surprise me if Sock's dragons in that memo were killed, or if TJ hired more global moderators but knocked their powers down... or never hired another one at all.  I was never even friends with Sock the way many people on the forums were, I hardly ever spoke with them except in debates on threads, but I miss them. TJ should follow their example. Sock was the leader we all needed, and I hope they know how important and loved they were in this community. 

 

Sock has never been the only Global Mod. The most active/helpful, yes, but never the only.

 

_Z_ is a global mod as well, and has been for a good many years now, and I swear to god there is/was another as well.

[Alrexwolf]

2 hours ago, Millennium07 said:

 

Sock has never been the only Global Mod. The most active/helpful, yes, but never the only.

 

_Z_ is a global mod as well, and has been for a good many years now, and I swear to god there is/was another as well.

 

Unless the forum operates a day or more ahead of my time/site time (?) the last time _Z_ was last online last Saturday. Sock was here practically all day every day. Not that I'm blaming _Z_ for it or anything of the sort; we have out own lives and real life gets in the way. Even Sock was inactive for some time. However, my point is that Sock was the most active global moderator to the point of practically BEING the only global moderator; TJ knew this and knew firing them was a mistake so Sock could, I feel, get away with a bit more than normal mods or even other global mods could. 

[Dragon_Arbock]

Go find Z's personal thread. It explains why they're not active, and I don't blame them in the slightest.

 

We need a new Global mod.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I wish both her and Sock the utmost best.

 

Another moderator (or was it TJ? somebody) did say they would probably be doing calls for new moderators sometime soon, once holiday chaos calms down. Personally I wonder if it would be possible to give ALL the mods powers across all departments, even if they're specifically just assigned to one, so that they can step in anywhere if something gets real crazy. If not, then suggestions could probably use more mods then anywhere else.

[Starscream]

TJ is looking into new mods once the holiday madness is over. As for sock's scroll, I don't think there needs to be worry of its removal. If there is, I am sure some of the mods would be a bit put out (myself included)

[Whirlaway]

TJ said that he is looking into doing moderator applications out eventually.

[Jazeki]

The opening post has been edited slightly. 

[JavaTigress]

11 hours ago, Dorchet said:

TJ said that he is looking into doing moderator applications out eventually.

Fairly SOON, if I understood him correctly.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

So, with Sweetlings...

 

I might be wrong, but it seems like TJ’s stance was “respect the artist’s wishes as much as possible.”

 

Which I certainly understand. As an artist and writer myself I still feel things given to a game should defer to what’s best for the game... but I also completely get the creator of a game that relies on freely given art to keep going not wanting to risk offending artists in any way.

 

However we only got vague answers that hinted at this, but never a solid, clear “I want to respect the artist’s wishes as much as possible, and as such they won’t see wider release.” Again, I think TJ was GETTING at that, but something was lost in translation and people were still confused.

 

I feel like this happens a lot; people will argue back and forth over the meaning of single sentences in TJ’s replies  because they often aren’t clear enough.

Edited February 16, 2018 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fuzzbucket]

But the artist stated that what she wanted was what we had.

 

Quote

So I think a fair compromise here is to have alts scroll locked. People with alts will only have alts, people with pinks will only have pinks.

 

That is the way it has been since day 1. That is NOT what we have now. People with alts can now have pinks as well. So why was there a change ?

 

 

[random_dragon_collector]

Artist posted locked scrolls, TJ seems to have posted alt owners can have both--which is it? 

[Moonlight_Eevee]

20 minutes ago, random_dragon_collector said:

Artist posted locked scrolls, TJ seems to have posted alt owners can have both--which is it? 

I feel like there was a lack of communication between TJ and the artist. From what I gathered from the Sweetling alts, it should have stayed the same. TJ changed his mind and was going to retire the alts but changed it to where alt owners can have both. The artist came in and said only alt owners can have alts and non alt owners can have pink only. So at the end of the day, TJ should have left the Sweetlings alone. Period.

[Starscream]

21 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

That is the way it has been since day 1. That is NOT what we have now. People with alts can now have pinks as well. So why was there a change ?

I don't think she knows the answer to that. TJ was the one who made the change - and he gave us as much of an answer as he is willing to give. I feel that Kila's wish needs to be respected.  Although I have pinks, I do hope this reversal takes place so they can go back to black - as it should be.

[Fuzzbucket]

57 minutes ago, Dalek Raptor said:

I feel like there was a lack of communication between TJ and the artist. From what I gathered from the Sweetling alts, it should have stayed the same. TJ changed his mind and was going to retire the alts but changed it to where alt owners can have both. The artist came in and said only alt owners can have alts and non alt owners can have pink only. So at the end of the day, TJ should have left the Sweetlings alone. Period.

 

Quoting for absolutely this-ness.

[noxlyx]

1 hour ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

 However we only got vague answers that hinted at this, but never a solid, clear “I want to respect the artist’s wishes as much as possible, and as such they won’t see wider release.” Again, I think TJ was GETTING at that, but something was lost in translation and people were still confused.

 

I feel like this happens a lot; people will argue back and forth over the meaning of single sentences in TJ’s replies  because they often aren’t clear enough.

 

This.

 

All if this.

 

However, I think the blade goes two ways here in this particular circumstance.

 

The first would be from the user side, and I feel like there are some users who don’t read the entirety of the thread or a post before posting. That or they cherry pick what they want to read and respond to. In doing either of that they miss out on key information. I’ll admit, I’m pretty guilty of that sometimes as well because it does take a lot to read the entire thread for full context.

 

The second would be - as we all are discussing - from TJ himself. I don’t think that TJ has any malicious intent when it comes to his decisions. And as stated in either this thread or the other thread by someone (example of me not being too clear on details here) what might seem clear to TJ might not be clear to the user base. I defended him in the last thread saying that yes, he did give a response to our questions. However my criticism was that it wasn’t clear enough. “Original intent” is a very vague term that could either indicate that he is just being purely obstinate and stubborn because he’s putting past intentions over current wants OR he’s honoring the original spriter’s intent  out of respect or legalities. I was hoping for the second but feared the first because the first would mean that he was being stubborn for the sake of stubbornness and that is frustrating.

 

But since it’s cleared out that TJ is wishing to respect the original spriter’s intent, then that’s that with Sweetlings.

 

As for his communication, however, from what I see with his writing style, TJ writes and thinks very much like an engineer. I work the tech industry as a technical writer who reads and listens to engineer speak all day everyday, and I spend a lot of time asking them to explain things to me and their response is usually “uuuuh but I thought I did D:” and my response is usually “yes, but I’m not an engineer.”

 

While what TJ is writing isn’t tech speak, it’s showing symptoms of engineering think. The details are there but they need to be parsed out which means things get lost in translation and some things are omitted without realizing how crucial those bits of information are - for example the distinction of what kind of original intent he meant when talking about original intent.

 

It might benefit TJ to step back and see that just a bit more details will help. That or have a mod or two read his response to see how an outsider would respond to his post. Just another set of eyes and opinion because what is clear to us might not be clear to others.