Transparency in DC

[Dragon_Arbock]

@TJ09 I could be wrong, but the last time you posted in the Unfreezing thread was 2014. I think you could stand to weigh in on it again.

And if you're not going to implement things where people are still talking in the thread, then I guess the only thing we can do is tell people to let the thread die? that seems counter-productive to making sure you see it's a thing people want.

The store I think could always be added to once it's in the game. the potions are a side thing that are almost an add-on.

 

I for one can wait until the 15 for an answer to the sweetlings. I will be happy to get an answer at all, and will not rush it.

[TJ09]

1 minute ago, Brekke said:

So you can only point me to some big, long thread.  You can't write a quick 4 or 5 word sentence telling me what you mean.  

You mean I pointed you directly to the post I wrote in September that says exactly what I mean and—as a bonus—provides even more context and clarification from the ensuing discussion.

 

That seems like the superior option to restating what has already been said.

[noxlyx]

1 minute ago, TJ09 said:

"could respond now" turns out to be a highly-variable concept. It's 1am "now," likelihood of responses over time is diminishing rapidly.

 

I just wanted to say, thank you TJ for responding to our questions at 1 in the morning on a weeknight of all things as well - especially since you also have a big boy job to take care of in the morning as well.

 

We can definitely wait for a response to everything, but... yeah... thank you. >__<

[Brekke]

5 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

You mean I pointed you directly to the post I wrote in September that says exactly what I mean and—as a bonus—provides even more context and clarification from the ensuing discussion.

 

That seems like the superior option to restating what has already been said.

Sorry--the thread came up and not the post when I clicked the first time.

 

I read the next post, too--thank you.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Brekke

[Dragon_Arbock]

That is something I would like to know as well, since raising the limits on future dragons wouldn't have really solved the problem of the past ones being rare anyhow.. but that'll also get off topic. I'll take one victory at a time if it means I'll get an answer to one thing in a short while.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

11 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

Of those, the first two are still under fairly active debate relatively recently. I shy away from weighing in on these sorts of "we'll design the game feature exactly how we think we want it" threads until people actually know what they want (they're also hard to respond to because they're inherently set up for disappointment when, if the thing gets implemented, it doesn't happen exactly as described). I have posted in both threads to offer comments around what would or wouldn't be acceptable (e.g. no special-cased unfreezing, or no CB hybrids).

The discussion around CB limits I did specifically weigh in on: I stated that CB limit increases are mutually exclusive with CB re-releases. I've thought about closing the thread because obviously the latter of those two happened (and it'd probably be better to allow for a new discussion that takes into account an entire season of re-releases), but so far I've let it keep going.

The breeding mechanics thread I should've shut down a while ago actually (sorry). It's pretty inherently unactionable, and the disclaimer at the top of the thread points to why: breeding is somewhat of a black box which, for practical reasons, will likely continue to be so. There have probably been a number of tweaks since it was posted, and yet it still continues. I could have asserted that "this has been made better" a number of times, and it's hard to prove or disprove.

The zombie success rates thread I've again weighed in on with a clearer explanation of how things work (and an opinion on the current state of things). It also is another case where a change could easily be stated/announced without really being verifiable.

 

Overall it sounds more like I should be more aggressive at closing down threads that aren't particularly actionable; usually if they become popular I let them sit to see where they settle.

 

Both unfreezing and the shop have been boiled down to a basic consensus for a while now. The last time I checked in either it was just people reaffirming the features were wanted. It’s all worth noting that people tend to try to be very specific in these threads to lessen your workload in terms of figuring out the kinks. If you’d rather have just blank suggestions, more thorough responses would be better sooner so people know not to go overboard.

 

Why are re-releases and raised limits mutually exclusive? It works just fine for Halloween. And if the discussion can go on with the re-releases in mind, does that mean they aren’t mutually exclusive after all?

 

I thank you if you have tinkered with common breeding. However, while both zombie turn rates and breeding mechanics are subjective and very variable things, it’s worth noting how people still keep bringing them up as problems (ok, a lot of the time it’s me, but it’s also NOT JUST ME ). Simply saying “I’ve tweaked things, see how this goes and refresh this thread in a few months if it’s still a problem” would go a long way versus never hearing anything’s been done and wondering if you’re listening (you did clarify different zombie turn rates, but even with them it’s been a year now and people are struggling even on the best days)

[Naruhina_94]

I really appreciate this kind of topic where there is a direct question-answer with you TJ, thank you for the time invested.

Would it help if we focus all question/answer in a specific day of the week? We could gather all question/infos to ask you and expose them in the weekend for example, or tuesday 9 AM- 3 PM DC time.

 

There have been some questions regarding dragon requests, not only site changes, that never got an answer. Mods suggested me to contact you and I did i couple of time. My biggest concern is actually to look like i want to bother you: I want to make clear that all this big fuss about having transparency and communication just underlines how much we like DC and want to help improve it.

 

That being said I appreciate you are taking your time to answer the sweetling, because to me it means you're evaluating the majority of the posts there and reading deeply into each opinion expressed, as you said taking a decision only to move on and that only brings more disappointment would solve nothing. We are not asking to do things super fast, only to show us your reasoning while you're doing them, if possibile 

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Aurigena said:

 

In my opinion, poll threads, something in the fashion of "vote and leave only one post with your short comment / explanation / suggestion of other options", would be much more useful than only discussion threads. I'm not saying that poll threads should automatically disable the option to discuss in discussion threads or something - what I'm trying to say is that they could follow them separately. In discussion threads, some users repeat their opinions, some create walls of text because not everyone knows how to effectively summarize their thoughts, some bring up other topics that sometimes aren't even related to the main problem... and some valuable opinions are sometimes ignored, buried under all of this. Poll threads could serve as a discussion summaries, and I'm sure it could be very useful - especially for you, since discussions seem to be rather popular here and you wouldn't have to go through pages of threads in search of informations.

 

I have to say I have been here for a few poll threads, showing - say - 200 votes and 10 posts. I am with TJ on this. There is no way to MAKE people state why they voted. Even if you can only put a vote in after making a post, that forced post can read "Support."

 

1 hour ago, TJ09 said:

The exact post you're referring to re: Sweetlings also specifically states that alts are only able to exist because they're niche and that changing releasing a "new" eight-year-old event sprite doesn't make sense to do.

 

I'm dubious on this one as well. I gave very specific reasoning: there's no need to support unfreezing in a super niche case when unfreezing could be a thing. Whether or not you agree with that reasoning is a different story.

 

 

Why did you change it at all ? (Sure, OT, but still, when you go back and post, I wish to know that.)

 

Will you please give your mods more meat to work with ? At least the experienced ones; I can see not dropping brand new ones in at the deep end. That would get rid of a LOT of problems.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Dragon_Arbock]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Why did you change it at all ? (Sure, OT, but still, when you go back and post, I wish to know that.)

 

He has stated he will make a reply about the sweetlings in the sweetling thread on the 15. I will not pressure him to explain sooner. Hopefully it will answer our questions. (and hopefully this turning into an impromptu Q & A won't scare him off).

[angelicdragonpuppy]

One quick last random thought before bed—

 

It is worth noting that you’ve done a ton over the past year and a half that’s been truly, incredibly appreciated. Groups have been an absolute godsend, Arias and Frills was a truly wonderful treat, and the return of old CB Holidays was amazing! I’ll give credit where credit is due. But at the same time there are still many suggestions that seem to be dead in the water (like I see you have some thoughts on the more involved topics, but it’s been years and some of the simpler ones, like more accurate cooldown timers, also seem to go unnoticed). So the more feedback we can get (and hopefully more features! :P) the better. DC 2017 was the best it’s been in years—hope the ball keeps rolling

[TJ09]

17 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Both unfreezing and the shop have been boiled down to a basic consensus for a while now. The last time I checked in either it was just people reaffirming the features were wanted. It’s all worth noting that people tend to try to be very specific in these threads to lessen your workload in terms of figuring out the kinks. If you’d rather have just blank suggestions, more thorough responses would be better sooner so people know not to go overboard.

The less prescriptive, the better. If nothing else, to avoid the eventual disappointment of "this isn't the thing I pictured in my head." Despite what it may seem, I don't just go changing things for no reason (or even "because people asked for it")—there's got to be a reason to it. Is there a problem it solves? Does it add some value to the site (and in what manner)? Those types of questions are the real thing that needs to be answered. The "how" and actual implementation are very little with regards to workload. To some extent, the primary goal of a suggestions thread is to convince people (and me, I guess) that it should happen.

 

Though I guess I should also point out that the first post of the unfreezing thread specifically calls out a quote from me explaining exactly why I thought unfreezing was a bad idea...and given that, I should've redirected the thread long ago to care less about the how and more about the "why should I be adding this?"

17 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

And if the discussion can go on with the re-releases in mind, does that mean they aren’t mutually exclusive after all?

That's exactly what the discussion would need to convince me of. It's certainly harder to do when people only have "what if"s to go on, but with a full set of event re-releases, do people still think it's necessary? Why?

 

18 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

I thank you if you have tinkered with common breeding. However, while both zombie turn rates and breeding mechanics are subjective and very variable things, it’s worth noting how people still keep bringing them up as problems (ok, a lot of the time it’s me, but it’s also NOT JUST ME ). Simply saying “I’ve tweaked things, see how this goes and refresh this thread in a few months if it’s still a problem” would go a long way versus never hearing anything’s been done and wondering if you’re listening (you did clarify different zombie turn rates, but even with them it’s been a year now and people are struggling even on the best days)

The placebo effect/confirmation bias are surprisingly real. I guess I could use that to my advantage...but if people aren't noticing the results themselves after changes, then perhaps more are needed.

[Fuzzbucket]

29 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

 

He has stated he will make a reply about the sweetlings in the sweetling thread on the 15. I will not pressure him to explain sooner. Hopefully it will answer our questions. (and hopefully this turning into an impromptu Q & A won't scare him off).

 

I know, but as we can't post there just now, I wanted to make sure that simple question didn't get lost. It is THE thing I have never got !

 

ETA I am ON THE WHOLE OK with the way the actual game is running (except for dominant breeds taking over in lineage building ) and I VERY much appreciate the changes that have taken place over the last year (except the sweetling thing) - my issues here are with the forum. And mods could do so much more if allowed to.One can actually FEEL them wishing they could step in and sort something.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

Agree with Fuzzbucket; issues generally are not so much with the game, but with management I guess. I'm glad we're getting somewhere though with getting answers, and this thread is a big help: even if there are still some things we feel need clarification and addressing, at least conversation is happening.

 

I just can't help feeling like, this is the game that we, the user, plays. We make suggestions as to how we feel things could be better, and with quite a lot of the time, there is a large agreement. Such as with unfreezing, it is an issue that many people agree on, and honestly seems simple enough. I always appreciated the feeling of democracy - particularly when I found out players themselves could make dragons to be put in the cave! - I mean obviously we aren't the rulers or whatever, but I just think that on issues where the userbase is in widespread agreement on, it would be nice to at least have said issue considered.

Edited February 13, 2018 by RealWilliamShakespeare

[Guillotine]

1 hour ago, TJ09 said:

The less prescriptive, the better. If nothing else, to avoid the eventual disappointment of "this isn't the thing I pictured in my head." Despite what it may seem, I don't just go changing things for no reason (or even "because people asked for it")—there's got to be a reason to it. Is there a problem it solves? Does it add some value to the site (and in what manner)? Those types of questions are the real thing that needs to be answered. The "how" and actual implementation are very little with regards to workload. To some extent, the primary goal of a suggestions thread is to convince people (and me, I guess) that it should happen.

 

Though I guess I should also point out that the first post of the unfreezing thread specifically calls out a quote from me explaining exactly why I thought unfreezing was a bad idea...and given that, I should've redirected the thread long ago to care less about the how and more about the "why should I be adding this?"

That's exactly what the discussion would need to convince me of. It's certainly harder to do when people only have "what if"s to go on, but with a full set of event re-releases, do people still think it's necessary? Why?

 

The placebo effect/confirmation bias are surprisingly real. I guess I could use that to my advantage...but if people aren't noticing the results themselves after changes, then perhaps more are needed.

 

I certainly think at least altering how limits work will become necessary within 1-2 years given the rerelease biome, but even without that... Aegises alone are painfully limited and basically impossible to use for EGs due to how they work (especially without any way for a non-forum player to be sure that the player who bred the egg won't swap between radically different sprites!), and as a whole the limited nature of the breeds that have limits makes the userbase treat their offspring as more "special" and thus makes most less willing to breed for others, which runs counter to the stated reasoning for the limits.

 

 

Disappointment is inevitable, because even the vaguest plan will have people build expectations for how it looks. Don't let that deter implementing a good idea.
 

[Auriene]

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

I have to say I have been here for a few poll threads, showing - say - 200 votes and 10 posts. I am with TJ on this. There is no way to MAKE people state why they voted. Even if you can only put a vote in after making a post, that forced post can read "Support."

 

Yes, I remember, but let's look at the Suggestion for Sweets thread. 300 replies and 74 users that voiced their opinions. Many users voiced them only once or twice, mostly in reference to the summary created and posted by Lucere (which was very helpful, by the way), or in reference to other posts, in a way similar to the poll thread. And even with that summary, sometimes the topic went in circles, people were repeating this or that opinion again and again, using only different words. In the end I don't think that we can clearly see which option is the best according to the majority of active disputants, not to the ones that voice their opinion more often or in more words.

 

Elaborating and explaining your opinion is great, but sometimes it clouds the general idea of the thread, especially if repeated too many times. And it would be a lot easier if users' discussions were actually focused on establishing which option is the best and why, not on establishing which options we may have... or we may not have.. or maybe we have them, but we don't know about them yet... or maybe this is all pointless, because in the end the discussion topic will remain unnoticed or unaddressed and will eventually die.

[Fuzzbucket]

Sure, but a poll with very many votes in one direction and almost all the posts in the other can and does happen. Polls so often mean people just pop in, read the thread title (which isn't always that helpful) and click without reading one single thing. AND you cannot change your vote if the thread convinces you you were wrong (been there... frustrated) the hell out of me. The discussion as it evolved was entirely convincing, and I wasn't alone in wanting to change my vote.)

Edited February 13, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[Auriene]

35 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Sure, but a poll with very many votes in one direction and almost all the posts in the other can and does happen. Polls so often mean people just pop in, read the thread title (which isn't always that helpful) and click without reading one single thing. AND you cannot change your vote if the thread convinces you you were wrong (been there... frustrated) the hell out of me. The discussion as it evolved was entirely convincing, and I wasn't alone in wanting to change my vote.)

 

By the way, I don't see why people leaving their vote with only "support" comment is such a bad thing. Not everyone is comfortable with writing on forums, especially if that means writing in foreign language (as there is a huge difference between reading in English and writing in English, at least for people like me, who read in this language and uderstand it very well, but don't write in it very often). There are also people who feel that repeating the opinion that already appeared isn't necessary, but they want to show their support for it. One option is significantly more popular than others? Looks like according to the majority of people, this is the best option.

 

I know that the general problem with polls is unability to change the vote, but that could be changed if we have established frames for our discussions. The Suggestion for Sweets topic could be easily changed or linked to the poll based on Lucere's summary - since people didn't have many significantly new ideas that weren't included in it. That wouldn't change much... except giving the TJ or anyone interested a clearer view of users' opinions. People who don't like to participate in discussions could vote too. People who would like to elaborate their opinion, or add which option is second best according to them, would do that in their comment. And I think that even then we would have only one or two the most popular options, with others noticeably less popular.

 

The ideal situation would be if discussions were more often addressed, so that people would know with what they can work.

[JavaTigress]

6 hours ago, TJ09 said:

Despite my previous response, I'll just mention that new mods are definitely happening, which was made known last December when someone posted in this section about it. We've been talking about it since November, actually, but it's really awkward to throw new people over the coals during event season (which is why it almost always happens in March/April). Look for a thread shortly after Valentine's is over.

Good to know AND I do understand that reasoning. To Borrow Fuzz's analogy THAT'd be a BIT like tossing a new floor manager into the store during the holiday rush and expecting it to work..

[Fuzzbucket]

38 minutes ago, Aurigena said:

 

By the way, I don't see why people leaving their vote with only "support" comment is such a bad thing.

 

Because you have no idea if they read ANYTHING about it. If they even know what they are supporting. And I even recall Sock once, who came to a thread, voted - and then realised she'd made a mistake. She posted to explain, but people who don't bother to read...  if you have to say why, it makes a big difference.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

3 hours ago, TJ09 said:

The less prescriptive, the better. If nothing else, to avoid the eventual disappointment of "this isn't the thing I pictured in my head." Despite what it may seem, I don't just go changing things for no reason (or even "because people asked for it")—there's got to be a reason to it. Is there a problem it solves? Does it add some value to the site (and in what manner)? Those types of questions are the real thing that needs to be answered. The "how" and actual implementation are very little with regards to workload. To some extent, the primary goal of a suggestions thread is to convince people (and me, I guess) that it should happen.

 

Though I guess I should also point out that the first post of the unfreezing thread specifically calls out a quote from me explaining exactly why I thought unfreezing was a bad idea...and given that, I should've redirected the thread long ago to care less about the how and more about the "why should I be adding this?"

That's exactly what the discussion would need to convince me of. It's certainly harder to do when people only have "what if"s to go on, but with a full set of event re-releases, do people still think it's necessary? Why?

 

The placebo effect/confirmation bias are surprisingly real. I guess I could use that to my advantage...but if people aren't noticing the results themselves after changes, then perhaps more are needed.

 

I believe all the above threads already hashed out the "why" very well, though. The suggesting of specific ways to add the features tends to come after lots and lots and lots of debate about whether something is worth doing it all.

 

The shop: so that people who've played for years with crappy connections, or little time, or whatever else sort of bad luck can earn nice things, albeit at a rate that still keeps them rare. Also would allow people to work towards gaining Prizes, rather than them being pure luck.

 

Unfreezing: people make mistakes, and rules change. I originally suggested it for holidays because those of us who froze one during limits have now been kicked in the boot twice over (first missing out on those extra breeding opportunities all these years, now having to decide if we want to release beloved frozens that have been with us ages just to replace them). Aside from that, you hear about newbies freezing CB rares and pretty lineages they regret down the line. The limitations suggested for how to handle it would provide little abuse while helping fix a lot of past grievances.

 

Higher limits: @Guillotine said this very well; you have weird cases like Aegises that make it hard to work with just two sprites, you have things like Snow Angels and Sweetlings that if they became available to all would be very cramped in the current limits, and across the spectrum people are more generous with Halloweens then the other holidays because they have enough to work with AND gift. The current system runs contrary to the proposed "spread the love" mentality. It's also a collecting game, so the more collecting, the merrier. Even if you were worried that completely raised limits might cause undue stress around those holidays, a limit of 4 includes newbies and hurts nothing at all, and subsequent raised limits in later years should also be painless if, perhaps, there's an original limit of 4 when a breed is first released.

 

The thing is, though, that all of the above HAS been discussed in those threads. We’ve had an answer to “why do this.” We have for years. And still we wait for real feedback from you on the matter. It’s discouraging.

 

I can understand your stance on placebo with the other two topics, even if I still think pure silence makes the user base feel ignored. I do hope that, in light of how problems have continued being voiced, you’ll take a peek at things again. It’s already heartening to hear you’re looking.

Edited February 13, 2018 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cyradis4]

@TJ09 would it help on discussion threads if the OP created a list of the arguments for and against *in* the first or 2nd post? As ADP said..... All the threads I've seen have always hashed out the "should it be done" and "is it a good idea" before getting into the nuts and bolts. Certainly the Unfreezing thread had that, as did the "raise CB Holiday limits". Frankly, just letting us get old CBs again solved only half the problem. 

 

Also, it might be a good idea to post in the CB Limits thread with something like, "Please revisit this after next V-day, when we know how the new CBs affect things"? 

 

I'll go dig up and bump the BSA idea I had, with regards to the breeding issue. Maybe that can help brainstorm ideas and shake it loose. The plecebo effect is real, and no I haven't noticed any real change in blocker breeding. But that could also be because less and less people are using them because of this problem. I know I've cut back on my common projects, as it wasn't worth the time investment. Now that we can do specific sorting in groups, I may re-visit it. But again: if few use blockers, how can their ratios right? 

 

But yea, even an acknowledgement of "I hear you, I know this is a problem, but its solution is proving difficult. Hang in there!" would go a long way toward making things like the breeding imbalance less frustrating. 

 

Cheers!

C4. 

[Fuzzbucket]

26 minutes ago, cyradis4 said:

But yea, even an acknowledgement of "I hear you, I know this is a problem, but its solution is proving difficult. Hang in there!" would go a long way toward making things like the breeding imbalance less frustrating. 

 

Cheers!

C4. 

 

This, so much. (And the dominance of certain breeds in lineage-building is a BIG problem... I don't know what can be done, but it doesn't reset at the start of a year, as I had hoped it might - someone having once said that the ratios do that. )

[LadyLyzar]

36 minutes ago, cyradis4 said:

@TJ09 would it help on discussion threads if the OP created a list of the arguments for and against *in* the first or 2nd post? As ADP said..... All the threads I've seen have always hashed out the "should it be done" and "is it a good idea" before getting into the nuts and bolts. Certainly the Unfreezing thread had that, as did the "raise CB Holiday limits". Frankly, just letting us get old CBs again solved only half the problem.

 

It doesn't necessarily need to be the 2nd post now with the "Recommended Posts" feature.  If someone makes a summary post, like Lucerne did in the Sweets topic, I can recommend it so that a link to that post shows up at the top of every page of the thread.  That helps a ton with finding relevant information without having to browse the entire thing.  Also, the recommended post can be edited as necessary as the topic evolves.

 

I'm happy to go through and do this for busy topics.

Edited February 13, 2018 by LadyLyzar

[JavaTigress]

5 minutes ago, LadyLyzar said:

 

It doesn't necessarily need to be the 2nd post now with the "Recommended Posts" feature.  If someone makes a summary post, like Lucerne did in the Sweets topic, I can recommend it so that a link to that post shows up at the top of every page of the thread.  That helps a ton with finding relevant information without having to browse the entire thing.  Also, the recommended post can be edited as necessary as the topic evolves.

Question, Lady Lyzar... would it NEED to be a mod that recommended the post or do those of us who do NOT have modly powers have that ability as well?

 

WONDERING if the OP could handle doing so IF  a mod weren't available.

[LadyLyzar]

2 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

Question, Lady Lyzar... would it NEED to be a mod that recommended the post or do those of us who do NOT have modly powers have that ability as well?

 

WONDERING if the OP could handle doing so IF  a mod weren't available.

No, this is something only moderators have access to.  However, I'm happy to recommend a post if you ask me to (within reason, of course).  Also the ability does exist to recommend more than one, but I'd want to avoid that unless necessary because I wouldn't want the thread to look cluttered for those trying to browse.

Edited February 13, 2018 by LadyLyzar