Jump to content
Jazeki

Transparency in DC

Recommended Posts

While nice to have a response, I do still think you are not telling us enough. Yeah, when you say something people take it as fact and freak out over it, but that's because it's so rare to have you respond, so people will take any response they get as serious.

We don't get good insight into why you say no to things, or what your reasons are for what you do. A hard no isn't often enough to make people stop asking for something unless it is explained- or if it's a no with a chance of being a yes, what needs to be changed to make it a yes?

 

It is good to know more mods will be appointed soon, however.

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

 

I think discussions around forum moderating, though important, are a bit orthogonal to this thread. As I started this post with, "transparency" is perhaps too broad an umbrella to address everything at once. This isn't to say "don't talk about this," though I don't think here is the place. This sort of thing is exactly what the forum feedback thread is meant for, though if there's concern about the discussion being too big for there, a new thread is okay too.

 

 

First, thank you so much for responding to this thread, even if it does seem like you are saying that the things we bring up aren't true or an issue. I do want to point out, though, that the issue of posts being outright deleted, and users frustration with that, has been brought up in the forum feedback thread *multiple* times (pretty much every single time it happens en-mass), with no actual change happening at all (or even much mod response at all). When we don't get a response in one place, the issue tends to bleed over to other places. So, it would be really wonderful if large concerns that are mentioned by multiple people multiple times could actually be addressed. Then we wouldn't feel the need to bring it up everywhere.

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

We don't get good insight into why you say no to things, or what your reasons are for what you do. A hard no isn't often enough to make people stop asking for something unless it is explained- or if it's a no with a chance of being a yes, what needs to be changed to make it a yes?

Can you provide examples (ideally plural, to see what sort of patterns may emerge) of something that was just "no" without explanation, leaving people unsure of whether it was final?

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

The old poll system was scrapped because most people were indifferent on most things, and the signal that was there lined up with the forums. Plus, as I've pointed out on the matter of poll threads here, the discussion provides way more insight into what people think than a poll ever could, as long as one accounts for participation bias.

 

In my opinion, poll threads, something in the fashion of "vote and leave only one post with your short comment / explanation / suggestion of other options", would be much more useful than only discussion threads. I'm not saying that poll threads should automatically disable the option to discuss in discussion threads or something - what I'm trying to say is that they could follow them separately. In discussion threads, some users repeat their opinions, some create walls of text because not everyone knows how to effectively summarize their thoughts, some bring up other topics that sometimes aren't even related to the main problem... and some valuable opinions are sometimes ignored, buried under all of this. Poll threads could serve as a discussion summaries, and I'm sure it could be very useful - especially for you, since discussions seem to be rather popular here and you wouldn't have to go through pages of threads in search of informations.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, TJ09 said:

Can you provide examples (ideally plural, to see what sort of patterns may emerge) of something that was just "no" without explanation, leaving people unsure of whether it was final?

 

Well, to the whole alt Sweetling thing with the 'no wider distribution', because you said you felt it would be 'inappropriate'. Asked you why you felt that way or to elaborate on the reasoning in a more concrete manner, and got no response, leaving us all guessing as to why.

Another thing that comes to mind is saying no to unfreezing for old CB holidays, by telling us to go support the general unfreezing thread. I can sort of see where you'd be going with that, but the Unfreezing thread has received no input from you in a while, leaving me to guess that maybe it will never be a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Aurigena said:

In my opinion, poll threads, something in the fashion of "vote and leave only one post with your short comment / explanation / suggestion of other options", would be much more useful than only discussion threads. I'm not saying that poll threads should automatically disable the option to discuss in discussion threads or something - what I'm trying to say is that they could follow them separately. In discussion threads, some users repeat their opinions, some create walls of text because not everyone knows how to effectively summarize their thoughts, some bring up other topics that sometimes aren't even related to the main problem... and some valuable opinions are sometimes ignored, buried under all of this. Poll threads could serve as a discussion summaries, and I'm sure it could be very useful - especially for you, since discussions seem to be rather popular here and you wouldn't have to go through pages of threads in search of informations.

The forum has basically never had poll-only threads (the software supports it, but it was rarely if ever used), so when I say "polls in suggestions were a bad idea," it was exactly the "poll plus discussion" that you mention.

 

Putting things in words is so much better at getting a sense of how people are thinking about entire problem spaces in ways that a limited set of options inherently cannot compete with. You get nuances like what parts of an idea resonate with people and why. The why is particularly important, because it provides hooks to extrapolate—from the why, you can see how applicable a problem really is. If 80% of people who click into a thread like the idea, that says very different things than everyone turns out to like it because it would make their 24G spiral lineages easier to manage. While that's probably an important use case for those people, it's not necessarily generally applicable. The problem insight given from real discussions typically give enough information to derive a better solution.

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Well, to the whole alt Sweetling thing with the 'no wider distribution', because you said you felt it would be 'inappropriate'. Asked you why you felt that way or to elaborate on the reasoning in a more concrete manner, and got no response, leaving us all guessing as to why.

The exact post you're referring to re: Sweetlings also specifically states that alts are only able to exist because they're niche and that changing releasing a "new" eight-year-old event sprite doesn't make sense to do.

 

9 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Another thing that comes to mind is saying no to unfreezing for old CB holidays, by telling us to go support the general unfreezing thread.

I'm dubious on this one as well. I gave very specific reasoning: there's no need to support unfreezing in a super niche case when unfreezing could be a thing. Whether or not you agree with that reasoning is a different story.

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, TJ09 said:

The exact post you're referring to re: Sweetlings also specifically states that alts are only able to exist because they're niche and that changing releasing a "new" eight-year-old event sprite doesn't make sense to do.

 

I'm dubious on this one as well. I gave very specific reasoning: there's no need to support unfreezing in a super niche case when unfreezing could be a thing. Whether or not you agree with that reasoning is a different story.

 

 

Well, the unfreezing thing, I said, would be understandable, if it seemed like it was going anywhere. It's not. It's been there for years now, and no further discussion can be had without treading over what's already been said. So you pretty much told me to go beat a dead horse. I would very much like unfreezing in a non-niche way if I thought it was coming out any time soon.

 

As far as Sweetlings, is there something by law preventing that, or is it just something you refuse to do?

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

First, thank you so much for responding to this thread, even if it does seem like you are saying that the things we bring up aren't true or an issue. I do want to point out, though, that the issue of posts being outright deleted, and users frustration with that, has been brought up in the forum feedback thread *multiple* times (pretty much every single time it happens en-mass), with no actual change happening at all (or even much mod response at all). When we don't get a response in one place, the issue tends to bleed over to other places. So, it would be really wonderful if large concerns that are mentioned by multiple people multiple times could actually be addressed. Then we wouldn't feel the need to bring it up everywhere.

Each situation is going to be subtly different, but in general, things that are inflammatory and/or off-topic (usually both, because being inflammatory is rarely on-topic) messes with the flow of people trying to be productive. The posts aren't fully deleted, only hidden (the distinction mostly just means that mods can go and see what happened, as I've already done).

 

e.g. the Sweetling thread, the removed posts were along the same vein as this thread, though often angrier. The subject of this thread is 100% off-topic for a thread discussing what "could/should be done about the Alt Sweetlings," so I fully agree that the discussion there didn't really belong.

Share this post


Link to post
23 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

Putting things in words is so much better at getting a sense of how people are thinking about entire problem spaces in ways that a limited set of options inherently cannot compete with. You get nuances like what parts of an idea resonate with people and why. The why is particularly important, because it provides hooks to extrapolate—from the why, you can see how applicable a problem really is. If 80% of people who click into a thread like the idea, that says very different things than everyone turns out to like it because it would make their 24G spiral lineages easier to manage. While that's probably an important use case for those people, it's not necessarily generally applicable. The problem insight given from real discussions typically give enough information to derive a better solution.

 

I agree that putting things in words is better and all, but I have a feeling pretty much every discussion here ultimately boils down to a limited set of options, though these options are created by users. I can see that this can be a good thing - but on the other hand, users often work and discuss about options that ultimately aren't useful because they don't apply to your initial idea or intentions. Unfortunately, it seems that you aren't even telling people what your idea or intentions are, unless they ask or beg for it... and even then it is not that easy. It's rather improductive, not to mention that it's not very respectful for users in general.

 

Discussions are often more valuable that polls, I agree, though the usefulness of one or the other can vary quite significantly, depending on situation. The problem is, many people here don't feel that their opinions and discussions matter to you at all. You mention problem insight, but I suppose that for many users you don't even seem to be engaged in that process... and that's why ultimately, instead of seeking a solution, people find themselves in impasse.

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

As far as Sweetlings, is there something by law preventing that, or is it just something you refuse to do?

 

From what I gather with TJ's response, I think his reasoning is something along the lines of he sees little reason in releasing the Alt Sweetling because 1) it's supposed to be niche thing that got out of control and 2) it doesn't make sense for him to release a "new" eight-year-old event sprite. 

 

For example: Back when old pinks were an "alt" everyone was unhappy because of how unique they were and that only a very few select people had them. However, when TJ re-released these old Pinks, they were all replaced with the new Aria sprites. All of them got replaced and no one got to keep the old sprite.

 

Please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong. I only really pieced this together when I thought back to how and why Bright Pinks/Old Pinks made a return to the caves.

 

But this might take the discussion entirely off topic, so if my post must be deleted, please do so.

Edited by noxlyx

Share this post


Link to post

Well, I assumed with that he was addressing the people who mentioned releasing it as the V-day event on the 14th.. as opposed to releasing it in the valentines biome as a Dark Lumina version of the Sweetling. I can't really tell though.

Saying that they're only able to exist because their niche makes it sound like there would be legal trouble for spreading them.. but again, I can't really tell.

 

(I guess there's part of the problem- you responding shouldn't leave us with more questions)

Edited by Dragon_Arbock

Share this post


Link to post

Reintroducing Black sweetlings isn’t all that different from returning frills / old pinks/ old holidays though. Like I said in the other thread the original circumstances were different, but it’s been, what, eight years? and most people hardly care about the nuances anymore. They’re viewed as not much different than snow angel varieties, and the more everyone can enjoy the merrier.

 

 

Anyway, sorry if this post seems out of the blue, I’m groggy and woke up in the middle of sleeping, but my main issue with communication is still the extreme length of time things can go without response (or at least a very thorough one). Some fairly large discussions I can recall offhand:

 

- The Shop

- General Unfreezing

- Lifting or raising CB Christmas / Valentine limits 

- Tweaking the breeding mechanics so more newly  released commons don’t so completely dominate even other  commons in breeding results

- Further increasing zombie success rates

- Giving breeding and other actions a specific stated cooldown time rather than “in x days,” which could mean in 23 hours or in 1

 

Just a few of the bigger ones I can think of that have languished for a long time.

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, noxlyx said:

 

From what I gather with TJ's response, I think his reasoning is something along the lines of he sees little reason in releasing the Alt Sweetling because 1) it's supposed to be niche thing that got out of control and 2) it doesn't make sense for him to release a "new" eight-year-old event sprite. 

 

For example: Back when old pinks were an "alt" everyone was unhappy because of how unique they were and that only a very few select people had them. However, when TJ re-released these old Pinks, they were all replaced with the new Aria sprites. All of them got replaced and no one got to keep the old sprite.

 

Please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong. I only really pieced this together when I thought back to how and why Bright Pinks/Old Pinks made a return to the caves.

 

9 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Well, I assumed with that he was addressing the people who mentioned releasing it as the V-day event on the 14th.. as opposed to releasing it in the valentines biome as a Dark Lumina version of the Sweetling. I can't really tell though.

Saying that they're only able to exist because their niche makes it sound like there would be legal trouble for spreading them.. but again, I can't really tell.

 

4 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Reintroducing Black sweetlings isn’t all that different from returning frills / old pinks/ old holidays though. Like I said in the other thread the original circumstances were different, but it’s been, what, eight years? and most people hardly care about the nuances anymore. They’re viewed as not much different than snow angel varieties, and the more everyone can enjoy the merrier.

 

Let's save this for when the Sweetling thread reopens—I just mentioned that discussion that fits here was part of why that thread was temporarily closed; the reverse is similarly getting off-topic. It was originally brought up to explain that there was indeed a reason given, but we're trending in a direction that's less relevant to the meta-discussion happening here.

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

It was originally brought up to explain that there was indeed a reason given, but we're trending in a direction that's less relevant to the meta-discussion happening here.

 

I do agree that things were veering off topic, and I apologize.

 

But I feel like as Dragon_Arbok says, this might be a live example of communication being lost in translation that leaves the userbase dissatisfied. You gave us a reason, but we're confused by it. When we get confused, we speculate, and speculation creates a mess of things because facts get lost in the heat of emotions and words get stuffed into other people's mouths.

 

I think when it comes to transparency, it's more about being clear about why you make certain decisions and less about having monthly updates about what you're planning on doing - as you said, it leads to expectations and more anger if you decide to do or not do something because someone will say "But you said..."

Edited by noxlyx

Share this post


Link to post

I do think it's at least relevant in a some way. I would like clarification on why they have to stay 'niche'. You make it sound like trouble with happen if they don't, but you do not clarify why. Will you respond to that question in the sweetling thread if I ask it there again?

 

What we really want to see from you are answers that do not leave us with more questions, and we want to know if 2, 3, 4+ year old suggestions are being considered. If you do not like them in their present state, will you ever give any feedback as to what your ideas would be? Because as has been said by someone else, we may know what we want, but we don't know what you want or are willing to add/not add. It leaves a lot of us feeling like we're talking in circles after a while, and that our input doesn't matter much.

 

(Edit: I got ninja'd, but yes, giving an answer isn't helpful if it's not a clear answer)

Edited by Dragon_Arbock

Share this post


Link to post

So you're here.  You're posting.  But the Sweetling thread is closed for 8 more hours.  So we get no answers while you're here because you want to post there.  See now--I anticipate you'll say my post isn't about transparency, per se, but the fact is--this post is all about communication.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

Anyway, sorry if this post seems out of the blue, I’m groggy and woke up in the middle of sleeping, but my main issue with communication is still the extreme length of time things can go without response (or at least a very thorough one). Some fairly large discussions I can recall offhand:

 

- The Shop

- General Unfreezing

- Lifting or raising CB Christmas / Valentine limits 

- Tweaking the breeding mechanics so more newly  released commons don’t so completely dominate even other  commons in breeding results

- Further increasing zombie success rates

- Giving breeding and other actions a specific stated cooldown time rather than “in x days,” which could mean in 23 hours or in 1

Of those, the first two are still under fairly active debate relatively recently. I shy away from weighing in on these sorts of "we'll design the game feature exactly how we think we want it" threads until people actually know what they want (they're also hard to respond to because they're inherently set up for disappointment when, if the thing gets implemented, it doesn't happen exactly as described). I have posted in both threads to offer comments around what would or wouldn't be acceptable (e.g. no special-cased unfreezing, or no CB hybrids).

The discussion around CB limits I did specifically weigh in on: I stated that CB limit increases are mutually exclusive with CB re-releases. I've thought about closing the thread because obviously the latter of those two happened (and it'd probably be better to allow for a new discussion that takes into account an entire season of re-releases), but so far I've let it keep going.

The breeding mechanics thread I should've shut down a while ago actually (sorry). It's pretty inherently unactionable, and the disclaimer at the top of the thread points to why: breeding is somewhat of a black box which, for practical reasons, will likely continue to be so. There have probably been a number of tweaks since it was posted, and yet it still continues. I could have asserted that "this has been made better" a number of times, and it's hard to prove or disprove.

The zombie success rates thread I've again weighed in on with a clearer explanation of how things work (and an opinion on the current state of things). It also is another case where a change could easily be stated/announced without really being verifiable.

 

Overall it sounds more like I should be more aggressive at closing down threads that aren't particularly actionable; usually if they become popular I let them sit to see where they settle.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

 

The discussion around CB limits I did specifically weigh in on: I stated that CB limit increases are mutually exclusive with CB re-releases.

What does this mean?

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, Brekke said:

So you're here.  You're posting.  But the Sweetling thread is closed for 8 more hours.  So we get no answers while you're here because you want to post there.  See now--I anticipate you'll say my post isn't about transparency, per se, but the fact is--this post is all about communication.

This particular post isn't off-topic, no. It is, however, speculation about future behavior (i.e. an implication that I'm stopping the discussion here so I can then ignore it in that thread later). To shut down that speculation right now, here you go: I promise a response to the Sweetling thread by the morning after Valentine's. I would say sooner (and I'll see if I can spare a moment sooner), but officially my day tomorrow is booked until shortly before tomorrow night's festivities, so that's the best I can guarantee.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, TJ09 said:

This particular post isn't off-topic, no. It is, however, speculation about future behavior (i.e. an implication that I'm stopping the discussion here so I can then ignore it in that thread later). To shut down that speculation right now, here you go: I promise a response to the Sweetling thread by the morning after Valentine's. I would say sooner (and I'll see if I can spare a moment sooner), but officially my day tomorrow is booked until shortly before tomorrow night's festivities, so that's the best I can guarantee.

My point is that if we discussed it now, you could respond now.  The response will be in the Sweetling thread in the morning, but you won't be here.  Why not reopen that thread now and discuss it now?

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, Brekke said:

My point is that if we discussed it now, you could respond now.  The response will be in the Sweetling thread in the morning, but you won't be here.  Why not reopen that thread now and discuss it now?

"could respond now" turns out to be a highly-variable concept. It's 1am "now," likelihood of responses over time is diminishing rapidly.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, TJ09 said:

The original context is from this point onwards:

 

So you can only point me to some big, long thread.  You can't write a quick 4 or 5 word sentence telling me what you mean.  

Share this post


Link to post


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.