Transparency in DC

[Fuzzbucket]

6 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Hands-on communication from TJ and/or equipping us mods with more complete powers to communicate with you all would solve 90% of these issues.

 

That is so clear to so many of us, PDC. We all know you do your best, but it is horribly clear that you are all hamstrung.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[olympe]

Definitely. Communication between TJ and the user base has been an issue for as long as I've been playing. Yes, there were steps in the right direction (like not enforcing the rule that egg descritions have to be kept secret so as to not spoil the surprise for newer players), but there are just too many "surprises" that are thought out poorly and cause problems/discontent for us players - and thus, drama. (Let me name a few: scroll-coded color morphs for snow angels and sweetlings, pumpkins being unbreedable at first, the current sweetling drama, bred mistletoes and solstices, aegises, GoN summoning and, last but definitely not least, prizes. Some sprite updates, too, especially the gold update. Don't get me wrong, the new gold is loads better than the old one - but it's so very, very different.)

 

Now, let's look at some changes that have undergone quite a bit of discussion on the forum: Teleport (with lots of drama back in the day - drama which stopped soon after implementation), Fertility, rare x rare breeding, geodes being able to breed true with other breeds, new scroll limits, renaming, ending of AP blocking, end of random hatching times (I think?), smaller eggs for drakes, GoN breeding... Also, monthly raffles (although it was only one of several proposed solutions to the prize fiasco), holiday without total scroll limits,...

Anybody else here see a pattern? Most of the changes that get discussed by the users here cause way less drama than those that don't. Because a whole lot of people put their minds into spotting potential problems and issues, which could then be dealt with.

 

And there's a couple of very well thought-out suggestions right now that are waiting for a response from TJ, some of them for years. (Trader's Canyon, on-site marketplace, Unfreezing, ...)

Edited February 12, 2018 by olympe

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I’d also love state of the cave reports, although given TJ’s working life and how this is a free game, I’d expect something more like seasonal or even yearly reports. Would be much appreciated!

 

I would also like to see topics that are still active after a year of existing get an official input from TJ, even if just a quick thought on what might need reworking or whatever. Maybe mods could pin these threads or otherwise highlight them for him so he knows they need answering. Seeing some extremely popular suggestions go on for years without response is probably the most disheartening part of the game.

 

Also if the scale of the game has grown to a huge extent, I do think adding more staff that are official beyond moderators would be good. Even if just people compiling suggestions that TJ needs to approve / veto or handling basic things like coding the release of dragons he’s already picked. I realize this is a much bigger jump, though (I mean... wouldn’t they be employees, which means paid?), but if DC really has a 40,000+ userbase like I’ve heard mentioned and makes a reasonable amount of funding through ads, it might be a great step.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't think paid staff are needed. I say this on the basis of a MUCH larger forum than this (and it's forum members who count; you don't get input from the player-base at large, nor will you ever, let's face it). There were four global mods, and about 12 others - and they DID do stuff like that. One of the globals who was there is a close friend of mine, and I know exactly how much time she put into it - NOT a vast amount. And she was the one who had to vet EVERY new applicant (it wasn't as simple as here, as there was confidential stuff in that forum.)

 

I don't thinks paid mods would be a positive step at all.

One of the strengths of the mods we have is that they CARE about the place. The last thing we need is people doing it for the money. There is huge evidence from studies that - for instance - taking days off sick is FAR less common among volunteer works in charity stores etc than among paid workers in Home Depot. Because volunteers feel a personal responsibility in a way that checkout girls in Walmart - however good they are - don't. It's the caring that makes such a difference.

[JavaTigress]

17 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I don't think paid staff are needed. I say this on the basis of a MUCH larger forum than this (and it's forum members who count; you don't get input from the player-base at large, nor will you ever, let's face it). There were four global mods, and about 12 others - and they DID do stuff like that. One of the globals who was there is a close friend of mine, and I know exactly how much time she put into it - NOT a vast amount. And she was the one who had to vet EVERY new applicant (it wasn't as simple as here, as there was confidential stuff in that forum.)

 

I don't thinks paid mods would be a positive step at all.

One of the strengths of the mods we have is that they CARE about the place. The last thing we need is people doing it for the money. There is huge evidence from studies that - for instance - taking days off sick is FAR less common among volunteer works in charity stores etc than among paid workers in Home Depot. Because volunteers feel a personal responsibility in a way that checkout girls in Walmart - however good they are - don't. It's the caring that makes such a difference.

Valid points Fuzz... however I would add that, true as that is... this recent incident made it painfully clear that we DO need a few more mods anyway. ( even if not paid)

SURELY there are more users that might be willing to step up and take that responsibility if asked?

 

Even just having a global mod (Which DC forums used to have. Miss you sockie) Would have reduced the problems that occurred recent greatly, I feel.

 

Glad to know, tho that that idea of recruiting a few new mods is being considered. IMHO it would help a lot.

 

ALSO thinking I like the idea of state of the cave newsletters as regularly as is practical for TJ to work it in.

 

Edited because i forgot about this critter  

Edited February 12, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Moonlight_Eevee]

I've been saying this for a while now on the Discord, so I'm saying it here. I believe TJ needs to hire a Co-Admin or a communication manager who can transfer the information between mods and the people directly from TJ and hear the voices and opinions from the people of Dragon Cave and find a happy medium between TJ and the people. It would have to be someone TJ absolutely trusts of course and this is a suggestion (besides I really doubt TJ would do such a thing anyway). Between him not responding to problems that can be easily resolved and springing out surprises from the left field without consulting anyone about it first, this site is poorly run. I'm surprised it's lasted this long tbh with all this lack of communication (but it has come a long way as well)

 

Anyway, team work is a vital role in everything, from running a site to everyday work, and everything in between. This site can significantly improve and be 10x better than it was before if TJ wises up and starts talking more.

[Fuzzbucket]

Not hire. Appoint. Sock could have done it. I suspect there are existing mods who could do it - but TJ seems to hold them back. The existing mods could also solve a lot of the problems - if they were allowed to.

 

There is a global mod, by the way - _Z_. She's not around much at the moment.

 

I disagree though. This site is very well run. It's the communication that is so lacking - and the fact that the mods are not allowed to be as upfront as we need them to be.

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

 

One thing that kinda irks me at the moment is how occasionally on a suggestion thread, many users can be in total agreement and be working out a way to make said suggestion work, and then TJ just comes in and says no and closes the thread. I've seen it a couple of times and it's honestly frustrating, because while he does give a reason, I feel discussion around said reason would be so helpful and could help please so many users, but the thread is just closed and can never be touched upon again. Really sad sometimes.

 

 

I'd like to comment on this, because I do think this could be handled much better. Even if there are suggestions that TJ has a firm 'no' to, does that really mean the thread needs to be closed the moment he expresses that no? Even if it's something he will never budge on, I think it could be very good for players to be allowed to continue discussing it, perhaps discussing reasons *why* it may not be a good idea and if there is possibly something similar that could be done that perhaps TJ wouldn't object strongly to. I feel like just abruptly shutting down the discussion just because it probably won't ever happen does more to alienate and frustrate users then any 'good' it might do.

[JavaTigress]

10 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Not hire. Appoint. Sock could have done it. I suspect there are existing mods who could do it - but TJ seems to hold them back. The existing mods could also solve a lot of the problems - if they were allowed to.

 

There is a global mod, by the way - _Z_. She's not around much at the moment.

 

I disagree though. This site is very well run. It's the communication that is so lacking - and the fact that the mods are not allowed to be as upfront as we need them to be.

ALSO from what I understand  ( AND IF I am wrong correct me mods) there is quite  a LOT TJ doesn't tell even to mods!

Edited February 12, 2018 by JavaTigress

[purpledragonclaw]

5 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

ALSO from what I understand  ( AND IF I am wrong correct me mods) there is quite  a LOT TJ doesn't tell even to mods!

 

You are correct. 

[JavaTigress]

9 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

 

You are correct. 

Thanks for confirming, PDC.

 

ANYWAY. I believe THAT point at least ought to change. 

 

I can understand TJ NOT wanting the general user base to KNOW everything coming down the pike... BUT I feel like if he discussed things more with our mods they could help him avoid a few pitfalls. HAVING as they do, a pretty decent idea of how the user base will react with a decision. I think a few 'flame fests' on DC could have been avoided simply by having another set of eyes looking at some of these ideas? JUST...my two cents on it for what it is worth.

Edited February 12, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Whirlaway]

That seems smart. 

 

I would imagine there should be a little more knowledge shared between the admin of a site and their mods. Correct? Correct?

 

Aside from that, I do agree. I don’t like that threads get shut down once TJ says no. Why? What is the reasoning? Is there no discussion allowed about the topic even if TJ says ‘no’ to the thread. That seems...

Edited February 12, 2018 by Dorchet

[Fuzzbucket]

14 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

ALSO from what I understand  ( AND IF I am wrong correct me mods) there is quite  a LOT TJ doesn't tell even to mods!

 

8 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

 

You are correct. 

 

4 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

Thanks for confirming, PDC.

 

ANYWAY. I believe THAT point at least ought to change. 

 

I can understand TJ NOT wanting the general user base to KNOW everything coming down the pike... BUT I feel like if he discussed things more with our mods they could help him avoid a few pitfalls. HAVING as they do, a pretty decent idea of how the user base will react with a decision. I think a few 'flame fests' on DC could have been avoided simply by having another set of eyes looking at some of these ideas? JUST...my two cents on it for what it is worth.

 

SPOT on, Tigress. It's like a CEO running a store without telling the floor managers about this week's special offers. It can't sensibly be done.

[noxlyx]

22 minutes ago, Dorchet said:

Aside from that, I do agree. I don’t like that threads get shut down once TJ says no. Why? What is the reasoning? Is there no discussion allowed about the topic even if TJ says ‘no’ to the thread. That seems...

 

This is absolutely pure speculation but I'm assuming the reason why TJ shuts a thread down once he says "no" is because he doesn't want people chewing the same topic over and over again once he already gives an answer...

 

...which doesn't make sense because that topic will inevitably be revived again some how some way because it's a hot button topic. I can count how many times the whole raffle prize dragons had been brought up over and over again back when they were a once a year thing and only so many people could get them during that time.

 

I do get him not wanting people to keep repeating the same arguments over and over with nothing new being added to the conversation because no new information has been released, but at the same time maybe those threads shouldn't be shot down because they will always end up being revived again down the line.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@Fuzzbucket ah, maybe I wasn't clear enough--I wasn't thinking mods, but rather true in-cave, coding-capable staff, which obviously requires an even deeper level of trust and communication than forum mods (who already need quite a lot of that!). That's what I was getting at. Right now TJ is the only one who has any control over the game, and while I suspect that would remain the same even with additional code-capable people, it might be easier if instead of TJ having to sit down and code in every new valid suggestion, some he could just say "yes I approve, go at it" to team members. While forum mods, of course, can't touch the site proper.

 

@HeatherMarie (Going to take a while to adjust to your username! XD) but yes, I also wish there was a bit of time left for such threads before closing. TJ runs the site, I get that it really is his decision, but sometimes he'll make points that I feel the userbase could offer valid alternatives to, or make compelling cases to change his mind, and... that's not possible with a dead thread. Like you said, kinda stings to go from lively discussion to usually a briefly explained no and suddenly the conversation is over.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

It's not the Mods fault.. I say again, the problem is TJ and his ego. He won't relinguish ANY control over anything site related, and the game is stagnating because of it.

 

Similar discussion on another site has led to some conclusions.. pixel collecting games like this, just aren't as popular as they once were and the decline is affecting EVERY similar game. However, the other site is doing everything it can to hold player interest and improve their game.. even if it wasn't something they originally wanted/didn't want to do. They have done what was needed to improve their game, keep player interest and still maintain the integrity of the game, without making the game something totally different from the original intent.

 

TJ could do the same thing, if he wanted to.. but he's more concerned with maintaining control than improving the game.

[OMGitsKairi]

I agree. I feel like better transparency and communication between TJ and the userbase would ease a lot of people's frustrations in various situations.

[cyradis4]

Eh. I'd have to say that coding wise, the site is not well run. There are several major quality of life issues facing the userbase, that haven't been addressed nor even acknowledged. And I don't think these forums are crazy enough to need a dedicated staff member for this. 90% of the problems coming up in Help / Suggestions are on their 4th or 5th thread. They've been known for many years. 

 

But yea, I've always found that the topics are at least mentioned to the userbase tend to have the least drama attached. Well except for Teleport. I swear it was like the whole forums thought the Sky Was Falling until it came out and they realized how much of a boon it was!

 

But still. Communication from TJ, discussing major changes on here first, and NOT springing surprises affecting *existing* sprites would head off almost all of the drama. 

 

Cheers!
C4. 

 

PS: I missed most of the Sweetling drama, I saw that line in TJ's first post at midnight and headed for the proverbial hills, I knew the forums were going to go BOOOOOM and while I love a good explosion, I was more interested in eggies.... 

[Bison]

I don't really feel up to going through things super in depth since everyone has already covered what I feel. But something needs to change. TJ is completely alienated from the users. I don't think he spends enough time in the community to really understand what the users really want, enjoy, dislike, or even get out of the game. I was busy moving so I missed the entire Sweetling drama but I can't even begin to imagine how he thought it was a good idea to remove the alts. Not everyone likes them, obviously, but the rash decision to randomly remove such a sought after sprite for lineages really shows a complete lack of understanding the community. Of course it ended badly; anyone who spends time on the forums (even if it was just during Valentine's looking at trading threads for a few minutes) could have predicted that.

 

DC is the worst run pet site I've been a part of. Its a great idea, that we all obviously love, and its amazing that its stood the test of time so far even as forums, signatures, click pets, etc die off in favor of apps, Facebook, video games, etc. But without adapting, which requires understanding and communicating with the community as a whole, I really don't think it'll be able to keep up much longer. Every other old pet site with One Big Boss that I play finally accepted help or more help in the past few years. All of those pet sites were vastly improved by adding some fresh eyes and new ideas to the table. Dragon Cave has so much potential and I'd love to see it realized before all the loyal users are driven away.

[Jazeki]

The first page has been updated with a list of suggestions from users on how to help with better communication through Bison's post. Please let me know if I missed anything. Otherwise, I will be updating tomorrow night if needed. 

[Dragon_Arbock]

I think it checks out, and appreciate the consolidating of ideas.

 

Also have to agree with some points Bison brought up, and would hate to see DC come to and end due to failing to keep user interest in changing times.

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, cyradis4 said:

Eh. I'd have to say that coding wise, the site is not well run. There are several major quality of life issues facing the userbase, that haven't been addressed nor even acknowledged. And I don't think these forums are crazy enough to need a dedicated staff member for this. 90% of the problems coming up in Help / Suggestions are on their 4th or 5th thread. They've been known for many years. 

 

This is a very good point. There are some things that have been talked about, people expressing frustration and asking for changes or just feedback, for a LONG time and they've been pretty much ignored. The biggest one that comes to mind is the ridiculous newer-breed dominance in breeding, where even a two month difference in new-ness can mean complete inability to get the older breed from that pairing. That's definitely something that could *vastly* improve the game if it's dealt with, but we never hear anything in regards to why it's like that or if anything can/will change. (Another thing is the Sino influencing, where TJ actually commented and *changed* it so that the majority-gender of the Zyus involved would influence the Sinos gender, and then multiple people brought up the fact that it's fairly useless as-is because we have no way of *choosing* which gender of zyus are used, he posted over two months ago that it may be possible to be changed, and then nothing happened and no communication since.)

[Whirlaway]

I’m just ever so curious why TJ does not talk or discuss the site more often with his users? Is he that busy or does he just not talk with the user base because he doesn’t want to? 

 

I wish we knew why.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I get the feeling that TJ is simply a rather private person, but I’m going to make the following appeal regardless.

 

TJ—when DC started all those years ago as something of a game between friends, I bet you had no idea how much it would take off! Tens of thousands of users, some active for over a decade; over half a dozen dedicated fansites; hundreds of people clamoring to create new dragons for you to use and new ideas for improvements to the game. WOW! That’s pretty impressive for a simple game about collecting dragon pixels. But perhaps it’s that very simplicity that makes it so nice among the increasing noise of a busy world, and brings me to your website more often than any other place on the internet. That’s impressive!

 

That being said—it’s hard to feel like, for all the fun, the game isn’t being neglected. Popular suggestions sit for years without implementation or even comment. Interactions with your users are often short and vague. Well known moderators, spriters, and users walk away in anger. There’s still much to be improved.

 

I realize that DC is a labor of love and you have an actual real job and an actual real life. At the same time, I feel just a bit more communication and activity from you could go a huge way! With the return of retired dragons and holidays and the addition of groups I haven’t seen the game so lively in quite a while. It would be great to see that exuberance grabbed and carried on, whether by more involvement from you or the addition of more staff (which would hopefully REDUCE your time invested while getting more done!). I’m not sure how much revenue DC makes, but hopefully every new user gained (or old kept!) brings something back to you as reward for all you’ve done. Heck, I think there’d be merit in opening a shop again—the old one was pretty dead, yes, but I remember seeing some AMAZING designs submitted in the old shop merch section that I think would have generated nice payoffs.

 

So to put all that simply: please don’t see this as us biting the hand that feeds us, but rather an attempt to improve the site that will benefit both us AND you. <3

 

[TJ09]

There's a lot in this thread—probably too much to tackle at once, but I'll see what I can make my way through. Let me start by seeing what sort of misinformation I can clear up or other clarity I can provide...

 

8 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

One thing that kinda irks me at the moment is how occasionally on a suggestion thread, many users can be in total agreement and be working out a way to make said suggestion work, and then TJ just comes in and says no and closes the thread. I've seen it a couple of times and it's honestly frustrating, because while he does give a reason, I feel discussion around said reason would be so helpful and could help please so many users, but the thread is just closed and can never be touched upon again. Really sad sometimes.

This one is particularly confusing. If I look through suggestions, I see a number of threads where I came in and said no and explicitly left it open to give people a chance to respond and address the concerns I've brought up. That is, done exactly the thing you're asking for. Even as recently as yesterday. Sometimes the following discussion doesn't end up doing anything that changes my mind, and yes, in those cases the thread will get closed. That's not to say that every thread is given a chance, no. There are cases where something is a hard no, but it looks like more often than not, threads are left open. That said, IMO threads should eventually be closed so things aren't left in an ambiguous "maybe this will happen" state.

 

Quote

can never be touched upon again

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Sure, if someone were to bring up the same suggestion as a thread that's just been closed, then it'll end up being turned down for the same reasons. But I don't believe it says anywhere that a closed idea can never be resurfaced.

 

10 hours ago, Dorchet said:

I also strongly belive that TJ should communicate with people more than just the occasional News post.

Could you explain more about what you're seeing that led you to this? A quick look into my posts of the past year reveals that suggestions is my most frequented section, followed by help, together comprising almost 60% of my posts. News is a semi-distant third place.

 

10 hours ago, Jazeki said:

We used to have polls and TJ occasionally makes suggestion threads to check user interest.

The old poll system was scrapped because most people were indifferent on most things, and the signal that was there lined up with the forums. Plus, as I've pointed out on the matter of poll threads here, the discussion provides way more insight into what people think than a poll ever could, as long as one accounts for participation bias.

 

10 hours ago, Jazeki said:

informs us of major changes or things he is considering.

Years of experience have shown that the second I mention something, it is a set expectation. If I so much as mention the possibility of something happening, there is, by the time I wake up the next day, a multi-page thread telling me not to do it. The assumption seems to be that "considering" and "shipped" might as well be the same thing.

And then there's the plethora of announcements of "upcoming features" that never happened because they turned out to be bad ideas (e.g. name stealing, a problem that still needs a good solution) or just not as important (raffle variations, which took a back seat).

IMO, it's much safer to simply ship things with a base, global expectation that they'll be iterated on, and nothing is set in stone—which happens with things like last year's birthday changes. Among other things, it helps to dispel a lot of hypotheticals and slippery slopes that crop up in discussions.

 

9 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

Do all mods do that now with warnings? I know it *used* to not be that way, some mods would always PM the user with an explanation but some mods usually wouldn't. Is that actually something that all mods do now? 

 

10 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I *very* much agree with Jazeki's 'please don't just delete things'. It's very concerning, and a little insulting honestly, when posts just totally up and disappear. It feels way too much like blatant censorship rather then an attempt to keep things civil. If a post is 100% harassment or against site rules or whatever, go in and *delete content*, not the entire post. I see that done sometimes, when mods will edit a user's post to take out a link to an egg or something, so that's definitely something that's possible. 

I think discussions around forum moderating, though important, are a bit orthogonal to this thread. As I started this post with, "transparency" is perhaps too broad an umbrella to address everything at once. This isn't to say "don't talk about this," though I don't think here is the place. This sort of thing is exactly what the forum feedback thread is meant for, though if there's concern about the discussion being too big for there, a new thread is okay too.

 

7 hours ago, JavaTigress said:

painfully clear that we DO need a few more mods anyway.

Despite my previous response, I'll just mention that new mods are definitely happening, which was made known last December when someone posted in this section about it. We've been talking about it since November, actually, but it's really awkward to throw new people over the coals during event season (which is why it almost always happens in March/April). Look for a thread shortly after Valentine's is over.