Suggestions for Sweets

[Vampyre]

12 minutes ago, Shroomlet said:

 

Just because I seem to be missing something: Why would it be better if not everyone had access to all sprites on their scroll? (sans Spriter's alts)

 Because then people would want special designer alts too. If they had nothing to suggest/reach for people would either get bored as heck and quit playing...or beg for spriters of their favorite breed (s) to design them their own alt versions of that breed...and/or say its not fair that spriters get alts and that if it has a spriter alt lineage it should breed true so they can have copies of the spriters alt. This way we wont have to deal with the utter crapstorm that will hit the fan when everything except spriters' alts are obtainable by all.

[JavaTigress]

3 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

 Because then people would want special designer alts too. If they had nothing to suggest/reach for people would either get bored as heck and quit playing...or beg for spriters of their favorite breed (s) to design them their own alt versions of that breed...and/or say its not fair that spriters get alts and that if it has a spriter alt lineage it should breed true so they can have copies of the spriters alt. This way we wont have to deal with the utter crapstorm that will hit the fan when everything except spriters' alts are obtainable by all.

I PERSONALLY believe that spriter alts are a different matter altogether.

 

IF you put the time and effort in to create a dragon, then I don't see why having a little reward is a bad thing.

 

At least, that is how I see it.

 

Different entirely from the altsweet issue.

 

 

 

[Starscream]

3 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

 Because then people would want special designer alts too. If they had nothing to suggest/reach for people would either get bored as heck and quit playing...or beg for spriters of their favorite breed (s) to design them their own alt versions of that breed...and/or say its not fair that spriters get alts and that if it has a spriter alt lineage it should breed true so they can have copies of the spriters alt. This way we wont have to deal with the utter crapstorm that will hit the fan when everything except spriters' alts are obtainable by all.

I agree with this -  basically its the route things seem to be heading toward.

 

Let it go back to the way it was and that would solve the issue.

[HeatherMarie]

18 minutes ago, Shroomlet said:

 

Just because I seem to be missing something: Why would it be better if not everyone had access to all sprites on their scroll? (sans Spriter's alts)

 

While I don't see it as necessarily 'better', I'd much rather it simply go back to the way that it used to be rather then the even-more-unfair way things are at the moment. TJ specifically said only a day or so ago that 'widespread release' of the alts would not be happening, so the second-best solution would be to return things to the way they were. Not everyone would have access to the alts, but at least a small group wouldn't have access to *both* while most don't.

[HeatherMarie]

2 minutes ago, Shroomlet said:

 

@HeatherMarie

TJ also said an 8th egg-slot would never happen, yet here we are - and happier for it.

 

True, but he said that long ago and then eventually changed his mind over time. That's how it is with most of the things he's changed his mind on, over time his opinion changes. I really doubt he'd just suddenly change his mind on something he very firmly shot down just one day ago.

[Imzadi]

6 minutes ago, Shroomlet said:

 

@HeatherMarie

TJ also said an 8th egg-slot would never happen, yet here we are - and happier for it.

True, but then later he said he was considering it.  So far he has not said he was considering more alt sweetlings. (Just the opposite)  Maybe it's spriter's wishes,maybe not.  So, for now, I'd just prefer if things reverted back the original way.

[ArielGrint]

My preferred way to resolve this situation would be to give everyone access to Alt Sweetlings(including CBs). I do really like both the BSA and the time of the breeding/catching ideas, as long as these are not applied retroactively, so time of the breeding/catching should only matter for Sweetlings that were caught/bred after the change was announced. For the BSA that should either only be open to dragons that have not bred yet as Ruby Eyes suggested or only to those caught/bred after a specific date(e.g. the start of this year's event). So if someone would like to get a Sweetling of another colour they will have to release the original one to make it happen. This should hopefully help against lineages being ruined because people would like to have both types of CBs(which I can totally understand). Yes, released CBs in the lineages will loose their names, but I feel like if we're discussing say a 5-6 gen checker it is much easier to live with a nameless grandgrandgrand<...>father than one that has suddenly turned a different colour. The reason why I would prefer this to be the solution is of course because it a)makes it possible to collect more different dragons and b)opens up a lot of cool breeding possibilities for everyone. I am sure that there will be some new releases that would go perfectly with Alt Sweets but if those are going to stay limited to original Alt owners it might become impossible to make bigger checkers at some point simply because the number of active users with those will inevitably dwindle. A lot of users think that 2g Prizes are unobtainable for them because they are so rare, but I am pretty confident that at this point there are more CB Prize owners out there than Alt owners and their numbers are actually growing every month

 

If this is not possible, then I would rather we went back to the way things were before the announcement, so those with Alt scrolls will only get Alts and those with Pink scrolls will only get Pinks. It would limit lineage-making possibilities, but it would make the situation fair. I do not believe one group should be given access to both sprites when the rest of us get only 1. 

 

Now, I understand that there are some sprites(or CB forms of such) that only a small select group of users can have, however these were all earned one way or another. Spriters Alts are obviously for those who brought us our awesome dragons, while CB Hybrids and CB female Hollies were for raffle winners. Snow Angels are being discussed a lot in relation to the current Sweetling situation and my stance is that I am ok with the way it is right now, that we're all limited to 1 wing-colour per scroll. But if all out of sudden we would be told that those with tri-coloured Snow Angels can also get other variants, I would not be happy(and I am a tri-coloured owner myself ). So either everyone should be locked into 1 colour or everyone should be able to get all variants(bar Spriter's alts for obvious reasons). I am pretty sure that allowing everyone to have Alts will not cause a riot where people will demand access to Spriter's Alts as well. As much as I sometimes wish I could have some of those on my scroll, I understand why I can't and I am 100% fine with that, this is a small reward for the job they've done, I don't see why it should be taken away from them. There might be select few who would maybe try to demand that, but to be honest in user base of DC's size this is something that is probably impossible to avoid and it does not mean that these demands will be supported by others. On the other hand, Sweetling Alts were just a bleep, a glitch, nobody "earned" them per se. 

 

And again, I did say it in another post of mine in a different thread, but I would like to reiterate it here - Alt owners, please understand that I have nothing against you at all. Getting Alts was not your choice, having the change happen wasn't either, so I would really like you to not take the comments here and elsewhere as a personal attack. Even if you did profit off of having your Alts(which I am not saying everyone did), there is nothing wrong with that. Other people who were given unique dragons profited off of them too so it is all just a part of the game, you have no obligation to play it the way someone else wants you to. A lot of you said that you actually do not mind and even support Alt sprites being available to more users and I appreciate it a lot! So please do not think that anyone wants to attack you personally (unless they are actually doing so explicitly, in which case feel free to give them a virtual kick). 

[Painter]

I really just think once they hatch, they should stay that color.

Sweets only hatch black on black-coded scrolls.
Sweets only hatch pink on pink-coded scrolls.
But they don't change colors when traded.

Simple. Reasoning:

1) People with alt sweets can trade their permanently-black-alts away after they hatch if they want. Or they can keep them. Entirely up to them. They still maintain trading advantage and get to control whether they trade away black sweets to pink sweet scrolls.

2) They can easily trade for pink-hatched Sweets, so they can get both colors. And other people have a chance to get black ones now, even if they're rare.

3) Logically, it makes the most sense. A black hatchling shouldn't revert to pink when traded away. It already hatched black, changing color makes the least sense.


Though. Honestly. I don't think losing your Sweetling once, several years ago, is really much of a reason for some people to have a permanent advantage in trading... forever. Especially with the introduction of new CB Sweetlings -- someone whose egg got dropped ages ago by a glitch, really faces absolutely no disadvantage today. So why not make black Sweets easier to get for everyone? They're already a part of the game. Phasing them out makes less sense than letting everyone you know... have fun collecting them. Which is what the game is for -- limiting how much people can enjoy it by limiting how many people can participate in collecting a certain sprite seems counter-intuitive to the actual point of the game.

Why not let everyone have a chance at getting a CB alt Sweet? Even do a silly event the day after Valentine's Day? Like a single day where you can catch alt Sweets, sort of like a anti-Valentine's thing, since they're like a foil to the current Sweetling.

Sometimes I think people get hung up on principles and forget that the actual point of the game is to just enjoy it, and make it as enjoyable for everyone as possible.

BUT if we're not going to allow people to collect both CB Sweetlings, then at least implement the above feature -- once hatched, hatchlings keep their color.**

**I also think this should be implemented for Snow Angels, it would work great there too, but that's a different discussion.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Painter

[Stormpaws]

I don't think the comparison with spriter alts hold up. Spriter alts don't breed true and personally I've never seen requests to make them available to everyone. They are generally accepted in the community.

Alt Sweetlings however where given to normal players and they breed like normal dragons as long as they are on an alt coded scroll.

 

They are a very popular sprite and I don't see any good reason to keep them limited.

 

If new CB's are a no go, at least make Alt Sweetlings breed true regardless on which scroll they are.

 

Yes, that would "ruin" some lineages, but the new changes did that already.

[Fuzzbucket]

45 minutes ago, Shroomlet said:

 

Just because I seem to be missing something: Why would it be better if not everyone had access to all sprites on their scroll? (sans Spriter's alts)

 

Because:

 

40 minutes ago, JavaTigress said:

ALTHOUGH I WILL say that IF It had been left that way,had that pot NOT been stirred, I think people had more or Less ACCEPTED it.

 

THAT said, it would certainly be better than 'some select people get both'. Still NOT my personal preference mind.

I will say that this would sadden me greatly as well. I would NOT want alts taken from anyone that already has them and loves them.

 

IF there isn't ANY solution for allowing everyone to have altsweets, then MY preferences, as I said, would be for returning them to their original behavior.

I will point OUT that, as I understood the BSA suggestion, once the sweetling had offspring it would be locked. It would only be childless sweets who could be flip-flopped.

 

 

There wasn't HALF the fuss before things were changed. It was pretty much "that's the way it is wish mine were black-ish."

[Shroomlet]

3 minutes ago, Stormpaws said:

I don't think the comparison with spriter alts hold up. Spriter alts don't breed true and personally I've never seen requests to make them available to everyone. They are generally accepted in the community.

Alt Sweetlings however where given to normal players and they breed like normal dragons as long as they are on an alt coded scroll.

 

They are a very popular sprite and I don't see any good reason to keep them limited.

 

If new CB's are a no go, at least make Alt Sweetlings breed true regardless on which scroll they are.

 

Yes, that would "ruin" some lineages, but the new changes did that already.

 

Yop, can confirm. The change ruined a lot of nice projects. 

[Millennium07]

Something that I think a lot of you are forgetting is that the Black Alt was Kila's Spriter's Alt that she gave up. Giving those affected by the auto-abandon glitch her alt was Kila's idea - not TJ's - and his original desire to retire them altogether suggest, to me, that he regrets that decision now.

The reason TJ is so unwilling to allow Black Sweetlings to breed true, or reappear through a BSA or the like...is possibly because he sees it as a disrespect to Kila to say 'I know you gave up this sprite as a gift to a group affected by a glitch...but I decided everyone can have your gift. Sorry!'. Not saying he does, mind you, but it's a possibility.

 

It's very possible that TJ would love to re-release them...but feels as though he can't. And no amount of pleading or begging or demanding will change that; even if Kila isn't here anymore...it's possible he just wants to cover his ass in case she does come back - or there could be legal ownership issues involved.. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Millennium07

[drabrugon]

@shroomlet: Maybe you are right, but I always made the experience that offspring from alt Sweets is untradeble (I tried to trade once to get more Flamingos for my army without luck). I am sorry for you and that you have problems to get one. I wish I would have known earlier, you can ask me whenever you want and I breed for you.

[JavaTigress]

11 minutes ago, Millennium07 said:

Something that I think a lot of you are forgetting is that the Black Alt was Kila's Spriter's Alt that she gave up. Giving those affected by the auto-abandon glitch her alt was Kila's idea - not TJ's - and his original desire to retire them altogether suggest, to me, that he regrets that decision now.

The reason TJ is so unwilling to allow Black Sweetlings to breed true, or reappear through a BSA or the like...is possibly because he sees it as a disrespect to Kila to say 'I know you gave up this sprite as a gift to a group affected by a glitch...but I decided everyone can have your gift. Sorry!'. Not saying he does, mind you, but it's a possibility.

 

It's very possible that TJ would love to re-release them...but feels as though he can;'. And no amount of pleading or begging or demanding will change that; even if Kila isn't here anymore...it's possible he just wants to cover his ass in case she does come back - or there could be legal ownership issues involved.. 

AND I admit, I HAD thought of this possibility. HOWEVER, if that were the case, I think it would be nice IF he came out and said so.

 

Speaking for myself, if he has a reason, I'd be happier if he at least told us what that was.

Rather than just... changing things up that have been in place for literally years.

FURTHER, if art ownership and artists wishes was at issue why change things AT ALL if no one new could have them anyway?

Edited February 9, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Wookieinmashoo]

1 hour ago, dothefreddy said:

 

God yes please. It wasn't broke why exactly did it need fixing? Ugh.

 

I am also put them back the way they were.

 

When I logged on and saw that they had been changed, I wasn't mad, just disappointed. Since CB holidays were being re released I wanted to get another adult sweetling. I wanted to unfreeze mine for years and I was pretty excited to get a new one. Now I can't? Do the cave drops alt as well since the changes were "reverted"? If they were supposed to be more limited, why was something not done about them then? Why wait 7 YEARS.

 

As for spreading them to other users, that was not their original intention by TJ or the spriter who gave up their alt for it. The alt sweetlings actually have a personal meaning to me at a pretty bleak part of my life. The fact someone apologized for a tiny coding mistake on a dragon collecting website, something so frivolous, was actually awesome.

 

When the alts first came out, I was happy about them, though I preferred the pink ones. It wasn't my choice to have them, just as well as it wasn't someone's choice to have pink ones. Giving someone both does not sound reasonable to me at all.

 

Yes questions about them happen every year, they are answered, the person is a bit sad and moves on.

 

No they are not CASH COWS as someone has stated in the valentines forum.  I see people trading second gens from alts they found on the ap all the time. That's nothing alt owners can help if they want to breed their dragons. My original intention of wanting a second adult sweetling was so I could breed it to any dragon and give it away.The other adult I had decided would stay with my magi dragon. You know what is a cash cow? My two CB prize dragons.

 

People seem to support artists' original intention for their work, down to the gender of the dragon. So why can't they support the artist's original decision for the alt sweetlings?

Edited February 9, 2018 by Wookieinmashoo

[Sinnarn]

I want to add my 2cents:
1. I'd prefer Sweetlings to stay scroll-locked, as they were. It means that won't be able to enjoy beautiful Pink-based lineages, but I kinda accepted that already.
2. Alt Sweetlings' offsprings are actually not very valuable as trade fodder. They breed true only once per year and they change color upon hitting non-Alt scroll, thus limiting their usefulness in lineages (they were mostly used in alt-based lineages). Commons from alts are worth basically nothing - they are not like commons from spriter's alts (one-of-a-kind dragons), there are quite a few alt sweetlings out there
3. Actually, this isn't the first time this issue was brought up. All those times it was shot down, because there is an actual veto from spriter, who gave up her spriter's alt. She is inactive now, but I don't think it allows us to disregard her opinion on this matter.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Sinnarn

[Jazeki]

No time for engaging in real discussion as my lunch break is over soon, but here are the ideas I support:

-return everything back to the way things were last year

-one color per scroll (it seems unfair that some people can now have two colors while others can't)

-a bsa like enrage (maybe enrapture or whatever the loving equivalent is)

-increasing limits and treating them like two separate breeds--as luminas are

-have the option to breed both colors per clutch if there are black alts and pink sweets in a line

[JavaTigress]

12 minutes ago, Sinnarn said:

3. Actually, this isn't the first time this issue was brought up. All those times it was shot down, because there is an actual veto from spriter, who gave up her spriter's alt. She is inactive now, but I don't think it allows us to disregard her opinion on this matter.

Again I ask,tho.... WHY make ANY changes if things were already in accordance with the artists wishes and mostly accepted?

 

WHY poke the hornet's nest with it at all?

IF the spriter ONLY wanted those effected by the glitch to have them, then they ought to have been left as they were, IMO.

THEN this drama could have been avoided.

Edited February 9, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Vampyre]

1 minute ago, JavaTigress said:

Again I ask,tho.... WHY make ANY changes if things were already in accordance with the artists wishes and mostly accepted?

 

WHY poke the hornet's nest with it at all?

 

I think the spriter's wishes were NOT to have sweet alts handed out like candy which is what a lot of flok want. She/he probably made no mention about REMOVING the alts which is what TJ originally did which woke the hornet's nest. He rectified it by allowing alt owners to continue to keep their alts...but to also get normal pinks. 

 

So yeah go back to the way it was is the only option. If he hands them out the spriter could get ticked off and remove the sprites (im not sure if the old sprites are under the same clauses as the new ones) which would mean we ALL lose...like we did for SEVERAL years with old pinks and frills.

[Terces]

16 minutes ago, drabrugon said:

Alt-form by BSA is a no-go for me. I dislike the BSA of Aegis, too, because it can ruin lineages. I think we don't need something similar.

 

I agree that Aegis forms can be a pain due their effects on lineages, but I was interested in the BSA idea so I did some thinking. What about making a color change BSA available to Sweetlings when they are in hatchling form only? Allow people to use the BSA and change their color back and forth as many times as they want, but when the Sweetling grows up, the BSA option disappears. The color they grew up as becomes their permanent one and cannot be changed again once they mature. Since it takes at least three days for a hatchling to mature, I think it's enough time for people to decide if they want it to grow up Pink or Black. This allows everyone to make the exact lineages they want (including alternating ones that are not possible anymore) without randomness or chance of someone 'messing' with already established adults and lineages.

 

If someone doesn't care about collecting both colors, then they don't have to take any extra steps compared to today. Just business as usual. Eggs on their scroll will hatch into their usual color (depending on how your scroll was coded) and behave as they always have - they don't need to touch the BSA color change stuff at all UNLESS they want to. I want to minimize the impact on players who only desire collecting their 'natural' Sweetling colors without any extra fiddling required.

 

Reason I picked hatchlings and not eggs is because both Sweetlings look the same in egg form, and I don't want to add extra sprite work on top of all this if it's not needed. Thoughts?

 

(I'm not opposed to things going back the way they were as it didn't really affect me, I'm just bummed that some players have had their lineage plans go out the window since the new changes)

[Ruby Eyes]

1 hour ago, drabrugon said:

Alt-form by BSA is a no-go for me. I dislike the BSA of Aegis, too, because it can ruin lineages. I think we don't need something similar.

That's why I suggested it would be only similar, but not the same: only available for Sweetlings *without* offspring. That way, you may end up with a colourful progeny, but not with spoiled lineages of their offspring.

[Stromboli]

I'm mostly just confused why the change was implemented in the way it has been... Like, I'm not sure what the goal was with this change. If TJ wants to retire the alt coloring, then retire it, but this is just looking like a minor change to their behavior. From "Alts must hatch on an alt scroll" to "Alts must hatch on an alt scroll AND have an alt parent."

 

I'm just not seeing what the underlying goal of the update was?

[dothefreddy]

I regularly trade alt lineages. At MOST I've "profited" by....trading with other alt owners. They really aren't as profitable as people make them seem.

[Millennium07]

The 'no offspring' limit on the BSA is also something that would never happen, as TJ has said he doesn't like to limit how others play the game. IE, he wouldn't want someone to be forced to never breed a dragon they might want to change on a whim - that's why there has been no such limitation on the Aegis's.

 

...This is, again, ignoring that it's Kila's request that the Sweetlings stay the way they are. Why they were changed at all, I have no answer, but changing to give everyone both just...is never happening, being realistic.

Not to mention that Neph - the other Spriter behind the Sweetlings - might have been part of the decision too.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Millennium07

[Dragon_Arbock]

52 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

 

Well I like exclusivity. Its why I play games on sites that have stuff I'll never get in a million years. I would love it more if there were MORE dragons I couldnt get. So seems we are at an impasse here doesnt it? ;p

 

DC never used to be like this. We don't want DC to become this. If you like it, there are many games out there that do that, do not try to force us to be okay with it here. We are slowly getting rid of exclusivity here; CB Holidays are back, Frills and Arias are back. As we see it, Alt sweets and Snow Angels are the last to big holdouts.

We do not want them because they are 'special' and we think we deserve special things too. We want them because all dragons on the site should be attainable. They are not like spriter's alts. They can, and for years, have, bred more of themselves- they are their own 'species' so to say. Maybe TJ regrets that now, but it is 8 years too late for him to try and make them like spriter's alts.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this thread got so immediately derailed from discussing possible solutions to people trying to tell people that they're not allowed to want alts and it's fine how it is.

 

I think my favorite idea that I've seen come up so far is time of day. I would prefer time of day breeding as opposed to hatching, but I do get the pros of hatching being that it is catcher-controlled and not breeder controlled.

 

Second option I like is making them like Luminas and Dark Luminas, where they're each their own species, but they can breed eachother. That, however, might be too random t be reliable for a one day a year breeding cycle. Whether we go with time of day hatching, or this, I think CB limits should be upped to 4, since otherwise people will have to choose between keeping their old CBs, and getting new. It's an awful situation for the current alt owners that some have had to decide to ditch an alt to get a pink this year.

 

Last solution is a BSA. I'm the least fond of this because people will likely turn dragons already involved in lineages, but it would probably be the easiest to implement. (and while I have a frozen I could ditch or maybe one day unfreeze to have a new CB black without messing up lines, lots of people won't, and again, CB limits should be raised).