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JavaTigress

Suggestions for Sweets

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Without an option to spread CB Alt Sweetlings, I would prefer things stay the way they were. Basically, 1) any option that includes ability to change a CB Sweetling colour = possibility of ruining many existing lineages, 2) any option that includes CB Alt Sweetlings breeding true / hatching as Alts on Alt scrolls = possibility of adding more pressure on Alt Sweetlings owners, and 3) any option that includes Sweetlings breeding pink or black randomly = possibility of not being able to obtain a version you need in a specific lineage... and waiting another year for another chance.

 

From my point of view, the least harmful option would be raising the CB limit to 4 (2 pink, 2 black). Alt Sweetlings are connected to Single Awareness Day, so maybe they could drop as CBs only on February 15 - in this way, they could remain somewhat more special than regular pink ones, and I suppose that this could be also a nod towards the spriter's original idea of them. It would be nice to know the spriter's thoughts on that matter first, though I don't really know how the art using terms work here.

 

@Kelkelen - from what I understand, Sweetlings were always treated just like Snow Angels. Maybe some players were always a bit disappointed by the fact that they won't be able to obtain the other sprite, but I suppose that was never a real problem. The problem appeared recently, when TJ suggested that Alt owners would be able to obtain pink Sweetlings, but that won't work the other way around.

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I have been catching up with reading here and there are a couple of points that I see being made over and over and I do not quite understand them... So if anyone can give their opinion on this, I would really appreciate it.

 

1) There is often mention of "to keep the Alts more rare" and I would really like to understand why do the Alts NEED to be more rare? Yes, they are currently more rare than the Pink variant, but after so many years of breeding and a few years of lifted limits for non-CBs I think that it is not a problem of there being not enough supply, but just the fact that very few can keep alts alt. If Alts bred true and scrolls weren't locked into 1 variation since day 1 I am certain that the ratios will be very different than they are now

 

2) Another point I see mentioned a lot is "let us have alts, even only the original Alt owners can have the CBs" and that is again something I am a bit confused about... Personally, I pretty much never make lineages with breeds that do not allow me to either have all of the dragons of the same breed be of the same variation or alternate between 2 options. If only the old CB Alts are left then at some point(not too far from now I think) there will come a time where those CBs will not be able to keep up with the demand. I honestly think that this might put more stress on both non-alt owners who might feel like they have to "outbid" others when making an offer and alt owners who might one day find themselves getting way too many offers and feeling the pressure to return to breed their dragon every year, even when they no longer enjoy the game/can dedicate time to it. I also feel like if this kind of solution was implemented this year(so everyone can get both variations, but only original alt owners can have the CBs), we will have new "drama" next year when -surprise- more people would like to get their hands on the CBs and wouldn't really understand why they can't(and I wouldn't be able to blame them)

 

Besides those two, I see that some players are frustrated because they got their Sweetlings back in 2010 and if some of the suggestions were implemented now(hatchling-only BSA, changes to the colouring mechanics not being retroactive, etc) they will still only have their original Sweets or will be forced to release them. Now, this is just speculation on my part right now, but I have a feeling that CB limits on Christmas and Valentine dragons will be raised or lifted starting this Christmas... Here's my reasoning behind it. We got old CBs re-released this year so that everyone has a chance to catch up. During Halloween(where there are no limits) trading for CB Pumpkins and CB Marrows got a bit heated, I saw people ask A LOT for those, and even with me being relatively good at catching I now only have 4 of each which was already pretty good. If Christmas and Valentine limits would've been raised or even completely removed immediately as well, chances are very few players would've been able to get their Hollies, Yulebucks, Val09s and Sweetlings because EVERYONE would be competing for those and everyone would theoretically be able to get more. Short of there being one continuous drop it probably would've been impossible to satisfy such demand. Now that most currently active players have collected their 2 of each, without lifting the limit holiday biome wouldn't make much sense for Christmas and Valentine's next year. I don't think that it will be removed altogether either, so I do believe some change in this respect will come. With that in mind I don't think that making both alt and normal CBs available this year will cause much of an issue because those who have decided not to release their existing ones can get the other variety next year and the ones who have released one will eventually be able to get more of both. Obviously, again, this is just speculation, but I do honestly think I am right in my guesses and might be willing to make a bet or two :P

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5 minutes ago, Aurigena said:

@Kelkelen - from what I understand, Sweetlings were always treated just like Snow Angels. Maybe some players were always a bit disappointed by the fact that they won't be able to obtain the other sprite, but I suppose that was never a real problem. The problem appeared recently, when TJ suggested that Alt owners would be able to obtain pink Sweetlings, but that won't work the other way around.


Right, but the thing is, apparently TJ thought there WAS a problem.  What I'm saying is, I don't understand what problem he was attempting to address.

In my opinion, there wasn't a significant problem before: some players had a Pink Sweetling, some had a Black Sweetling, and their scrolls would continue to give them that color, just like the Snow Angels do (which I'm FINE with, as long as that sort of mechanic only happens every great once in a while).  There were some complaints, some people who were vocal about wanting to have Black Sweetlings because they liked them better or wanted the ability to make lineages without having to trade for offspring, but overall, I didn't think there were many people at all who really had a problem. 

Other people do think it was a significant problem -- that there were a lot of people unhappy over not having Black Sweetlings in some form or another.

TJ apparently thought there was a problem that he was correcting, but what?  His actions don't make Black Sweetlings more available, nor confirm that the previous situation was alright by him.  His choice makes them less available to all players, while giving Black Sweetling owners the chance to own Pink Sweetlings as well, but not vice versa.  What did he think the actual problem was?  And how were his changes meant to address that problem?  The one problem or complaint that I DO see addressed, is that if Black Alt Sweetling owners desperately wanted Pink Sweetlings, now they can have them.  Apart from that, the current change only serves to make it harder for Black Sweetling owners to obtain Black Sweetling lineages.

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29 minutes ago, Kelkelen said:


Right, but the thing is, apparently TJ thought there WAS a problem.  What I'm saying is, I don't understand what problem he was attempting to address.
 

THIS is exactly what I would like to know.

 

Was he contacted by Kila who, for some reason, wanted alts limited further for some reason?

 

Ever since this went down I have been be pondering his thinking on this and WONDERING what he was trying to do with the changes he made to begin with.

IT seems like IF he wasn't ABLE to make them more available because of reasons... I can't begin to guess.

Edited by JavaTigress

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Honestly, all of this is pointless speculation. All we can do is discuss what we would want done about it if we had a say, and see what happens.

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If he really wanted to limit them, he should have just removed them entirely. It would have been awful, but it would have been a fair awful... unlike our current mess, which has the old problems but amplified and with the added bonus of ruining alternating lines.

 

It's been almost a decade, and a decent chunk of that has been with freely-breeding Alts. It's really too late to put the cat back in the bag.
 

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@Kelkelen - I also don't really understand that. Logically, the main reason for similar changes should be... I don't know, maybe making the game more enjoyable, presumably for everyone or at least for as many people as possible. Or maybe TJ just thought "hey, introducing those alts wasn't the best idea, let's do something with that". Or maybe he was contacted by a spriter, jus as @JavaTigress says. Or maybe he really is conducting some social psychology experiments here. I don't know and I don't really care.

 

There was a proposition of change, users gave their opinions on that matter, I gave my opnion on that matter. I can't do much more and I refuse to waste my time on guessing what TJ's intentions were. For me, this is really simple - if something needs to be done, then do this in the least harmful way. Raise the CB limit to 4 and with the spriter's permission, let everyone have CB versions of both Sweetlings, without the risk of messing up lineages and whatnot. This is only one of nine, soon one of ten holiday dragons, it doesn't have any real impact on the whole game mechanics or something, and I'm sure that many players even forgot about its existence for the most part of the year.

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14 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Honestly, all of this is pointless speculation. All we can do is discuss what we would want done about it if we had a say, and see what happens.

Fair point and as @Aurigena said... trying to GUESS TJs motivation doesn't REALLY solve the problem.

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13 minutes ago, Aurigena said:

@Kelkelen - I also don't really understand that. Logically, the main reason for similar changes should be... I don't know, maybe making the game more enjoyable, presumably for everyone or at least for as many people as possible. Or maybe TJ just thought "hey, introducing those alts wasn't the best idea, let's do something with that". Or maybe he was contacted by a spriter, jus as @JavaTigress says. Or maybe he really is conducting some social psychology experiments here. I don't know and I don't really care.


Oh, I understand you!  I didn't mean to come off as at all confrontational, and I'm sorry if I seemed to be arguing with you.  I only meant, I'd like to know what TJ was trying to address.  If he would tell us what he sees as the problem, what he will and won't consider, and why, it could help us figure out what changes are actually feasible.  Meaning, to be perfectly clear -- TJ, if you are reading this thread, I'd be grateful to know your answers to my above "three key questions."

 

But I'm all in favor of discussing positive changes!  I'm with you, Aurigena -- I'd like such changes to be made for the enjoyment of as many players as possible.  Instead, the current change means only one small set of players gets both sprites, but at the same time, their ability to breed their former lineages is badly impacted, so both sides lose out in a way.  :-/ 

Edited by Kelkelen

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8 minutes ago, Kelkelen said:


Oh, I understand you!  I didn't mean to come off as at all confrontational, and I'm sorry if I seemed to be arguing with you.  I only meant, I'd like to know what TJ was trying to address.  If he would tell us what he sees as the problem, what he will and won't consider, and why, it could help us figure out what changes are actually feasible.  Meaning, to be perfectly clear -- TJ, if you are reading this thread, I'd be grateful to know your answers to my above "three key questions."

 

But I'm all in favor of discussing positive changes!  I'm with you, , Aurigena -- I'd like such changes to be made for the enjoyment of as many players as possible.  Instead, the current change means only one small set of players gets both sprites, but at the same time, their ability to breed their former lineages is badly impacted, so both sides lose out in a way.  :-/ 

*NODS* It makes sense, I guess, why neither side is really happy with the way this went down. Understandable really.

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At this point I believe most of what can be implemented has been suggested. It seems like moot point to keep on with the discussion until TJ gives any sort of response to this issue. Of course, he is in no way obligated to respond to this subject, but I believe everyone here would feel better if some sore of closure/opinion was given from him. At the very least, I believe most everyone can agree that we would appreciate an explanation regarding the recent change and why TJ felt it was necessary.

 

Again, hope everyone has a good Holiday :)

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2 minutes ago, SerasVahe said:

At this point I believe most of what can be implemented has been suggested. It seems like moot point to keep on with the discussion until TJ gives any sort of response to this issue. Of course, he is in no way obligated to respond to this subject, but I believe everyone here would feel better if some sore of closure/opinion was given from him. At the very least, I believe most everyone can agree that we would appreciate an explanation regarding the recent change and why TJ felt it was necessary.

 

Again, hope everyone has a good Holiday :)

A better explanation would be ideal - at the very least.

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Passing along my experience, and my resultant position —

 

Back in the day, a friend offered to breed an alt Sweetling for me. But since this was before you could collect bred Holiday dragons, it meant I had to release one of my CB regular Sweetlings. I haggled and struggled with myself, sighed, and decided it would be a worthy sacrifice to have a black Sweetling on my scroll, so I released him. My friend bred the Sweetling, passed it off to me, and yay!

 

Until a few days later, the egg hatched and — I had one CB Sweetling, and one baby third-gen regular Sweetling with an alt Sweetling ancestor. I’d given up one of my CB Sweetlings for nothing.

 

My friend apologized profusely and I forgave her, it wasn’t her call. It was the game mechanics.

 

This year, however, I was able to catch a CB Sweetling to replace the one I’d Released and it even has a fun code in it. I’d still like an alt Sweetling, though, so I support being able to breed and trade them.

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I am glad to see that this thread has taken a more reasonable turn. I had to step away for awhile after things blew up the other day.

 

I am a bit with @Kelkelen on this whole issue. I wish I knew the thought processes that went into TJ taking the actions he did this year. Why after 8 years? What was the problem that he was trying to solve? Because as I see it he ended up not solving any problem at all and only making the situation worse. He certainly didn't satisfy the people who want everyone to be able to get the alts. And he has publicly stated that they won't be getting wider distribution. (And I believe that has been his position from the beginning, which he has voiced before.) Can we change his mind? Maybe, but that depends on the reason for his feelings on it, which we don't know. And TJ has never been big on sharing his reasoning on things. So we are left, it appears, with trying to come up with the best way for him to distribute them, IF he does change his mind.

 

And I will state one more time my feeling that a decision on this should be made with Kila's wishes in mind. Whether TJ has had a conversation with her about this recently, no one knows.

 

I can't speak for all Alt owners here, so I will just speak for myself.

1) I have nothing against others being able to get Alts, including CBs. I figure my "special gift" has long since served its purpose.

2) I can clearly see the problems that would result with simply having all Sweetlings breed true without introducing more CB Alts. I must say that, although it might be nice to have something on my scroll that could get me CB Golds, I don't really welcome the pressure that would bring.

3) Having new CBs would actually help current Alt owners, if they are breeders, because it would make trading for lineage building a whole lot easier than it is now! Maybe some people enjoy that challenge, but it has limited what I can do with a dragon that I love.

 

So, how do we go about fixing things, if indeed they can be fixed?

~ Allow for new CB Alts. Let people choose which CB they want -- 1 of each, 2 pink, 2 black, whatever. Better yet, allow for 2 CBs of each. Maybe a different egg description such as the Luminas have. I really don't like any of the BSA suggestions I have seen. They are either too complicated or could result in the destruction of existing lineages (PLEASE no Aegis-type mechanic that would leave all shared lineages in jeopardy forever!). Just let them breed true to the parent. It would destroy lineages like this one, which would make me sad, but it is already impossible to continue now with the changes that were already made. I can live with that if necessary.

~ Failing that -- if no new CBs are to be allowed -- then the much preferred solution to me is to go back to the way things were. It isn't by any means ideal. I get that. And probably the whole discontent will come back to haunt us every year. But it is preferable to the way it is now. I feel guilty about being able to have both colors when it is so exclusive. In fact I am still passing up the pretty pink lineages I see in the AP because I don't feel like I should take advantage of something that I see as just wrong!

~ I don't see allowing them to breed true, without new CBs, as a solution for the reasons I stated above.

 

I never intended to write this much and I hope this is at least semi-coherent! :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, laertid said:

Ughghghhh. I understand contacting the spriter (IIRC, several people tried to contact them already? Though I feel it's not really right thing to do, because it's what TJ and TJ only is supposed to do in my opinion... but well). But I don't quite understand why ask the current alt owners. No one asked the old prize owners before implementing a new once-a-month lottery. No one asked old holly owners before making a Christmas biome, or old Pumpkin\Arsani owners before making Halloween\Valentine biomes. And I'm kinda sure if there will be any, say, super rare lottery with a Neglected prize, no one will be asking old Neglected owners opinion either.

 

The point on this is aall these examples you just gave? Are NORMAL dragons. Sure for awhile they were "rare" and "exclusive". However they were NORMAL releases with no meaning attached to them beyond "this is an old holiday". Alt Sweets HAVE a meaning. That being "dude I'm sorry you got affected by the glitch". Now potentially asking the owners  is a POLITE way to go about it (and considering what I see 90% of alt owners saying? It wouldnt go against what everyone is saying.)

 

To not ask would be like someone giving you a giftcard to your favorite restraunt ...and then your siblings whinging that they want to go and your parents forcing you to take your siblings with you totally disregarding of the fact that it was YOUR gift. Sure you probably wouldnt mind sharing (if the money amount was large enough) but to be forced to share without even being asked? That would sting a little wouldnt it?

 

 

Dude ...what if the alts were rereleased as a "new breed" for Valentines next year (as I'm sure they have already chosen this year's). This would solve EVERYTHING ...we'd get the "alts" and no one would have to choose between one of each (releasing oldd favorites) or 2 of one or the other. This keeps the breed limit at 2 per valentines breed (since a lot of folk seem to like that come hunting season.) This would also take out all the arguments behind mechanics and all that (no BSAs that could potentially ruin lineages, no having to be online to snag/breed/hatch eggs at odd hours of the day/night, etc)

 

Then the whole arguement against "no more wider distribution of the alts" would be moot...as they wouldnt be alts anymore..they would be an entirely NEW breed!

Edited by Vampyre

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@VampyreI still don't think that's an adequate analogy.. if you get given a giftcard, fine and good- but if I want to go to the same restaurant, I can just go there myself and pay myself. The gift isn't an exclusive thing that you can only go to if it was a gift. And again, I ask you to refrain from implying that we are whiners for wanting access to alts.

 

As far as I can see, most alt owners who have spoken here aren't actually against the idea. The problem is more what TJ's reasons are, and if an adequate way of implementing a change can be found.

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21 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

 

The point on this is aall these examples you just gave? Are NORMAL dragons. Sure for awhile they were "rare" and "exclusive". However they were NORMAL releases with no meaning attached to them beyond "this is an old holiday". Alt Sweets HAVE a meaning. That being "dude I'm sorry you got affected by the glitch". Now potentially asking the owners  is a POLITE way to go about it (and considering what I see 90% of alt owners saying? It wouldnt go against what everyone is saying.)

 

To not ask would be like someone giving you a giftcard to your favorite restraunt ...and then your siblings whinging that they want to go and your parents forcing you to take your siblings with you totally disregarding of the fact that it was YOUR gift. Sure you probably wouldnt mind sharing (if the money amount was large enough) but to be forced to share without even being asked? That would sting a little wouldnt it?

Actually, they do have a meaning. People who chose frills or past holidays for HMs or won prizes have CBs of things that did not/do not regularly exist. They got them because they won a prize for participating in raffle. Many people cannot have CB female hollies, but they can have cb hollies now. People can't regularly have cb prizes unless they win. And the gift card analogy fails to make sense. You are not being forced to do anything with your specific sweetling (the gift card). Users would just like one of their own (a different gift card to the same restaurant). Also, alt owners had no say in getting alts in the first place. It doesn't really make sense that their wishes should be held above others'.

Edited by Jazeki
grammar

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@Kelkelen I also didn't mean to come off as confrontational, so I guess that I should apologise if I sounded that way ^_^ It's just that... I'm not really a part of the forum community, but I find it a tiny bit sad that so many people here lost their time (and nerves) trying to solve a problem that wasn't created by them... again. A problem that remains somewhat undefined, because nobody really knows anything about the TJ's reasons or intentions... again.

 

Sweetlings aren't even my favourite dragons, but I suppose that the option that leaves less to none users disappointed would be the best option. That means spreading Alt Sweetlings.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Vampyre said:

 

The point on this is all these examples you just gave? Are NORMAL dragons. Sure for awhile they were "rare" and "exclusive". However they were NORMAL releases with no meaning attached to them beyond "this is an old holiday". Alt Sweets HAVE a meaning. That being "dude I'm sorry you got affected by the glitch". Now potentially asking the owners  is a POLITE way to go about it (and considering what I see 90% of alt owners saying? It wouldnt go against what everyone is saying.)

 

To not ask would be like someone giving you a giftcard to your favorite restraunt ...and then your siblings whinging that they want to go and your parents forcing you to take your siblings with you totally disregarding of the fact that it was YOUR gift. Sure you probably wouldnt mind sharing (if the money amount was large enough) but to be forced to share without even being asked? That would sting a little wouldnt it?

 

Well - not necessarily, no. The restaurant visit would be one single outing. This is something that affects play for everyone, and not just for one night.  I would have loved to be one of the alt people from the start - and if I had been, I would have been fine with them getting a wider distribution. Then or since.

 

Like purplehaze - what I would like to understand would be what on EARTH possess TJ to change anything at all.

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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There's not a one of us that understands what goes on in his head, I'm afraid.

 

However, based on this, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.
 

Quote


Let me first make it clear: alt Sweetlings are not going to see wider distribution. I'm sorry if that disappoints anyone who is or was hoping to eventually be able to get one, but it's not going to happen.

 

 

As such I think we should focus on solutions that do not involve spreading alts around.  Yes I know it stinks that not everyone will be able to get one but it is what it is.

 

Given this I support full rollback to the previous system as the current one destroys a lot of lineage creation potential.

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Find it funny that everyone is railing at me for a poor analogy.

 

But yet NO ONE is considering the merits of my edit? I guess no one likes my answer?

 

Well anyways if my ideas dont get merit im not just going to voice them and I'll let you guys go in circles about "alt" sweets. I will just let you know...even if wider distribution of alt sweets DOES end up happening...I can almost guarentee it wont happen this year. To the point I'd be willing to bet real money on it.

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@LadyLyzar With all due respect, he has changed his mine before. Until we actually get a clear answer as to why, I'm going to keep asking. If it's literally something he can't do by law, then I'll have to submit, but if it's him thinking that alt owners would be upset by wider distribution.. well he should actually ask them.

 

Edit @Vampyre you kinda edited it after I had already made my post, so I didn't even see it. And making them a  separate breed I think has already been discussed.

Edited by Dragon_Arbock

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@Vampyre I didn't see your edit until after a refresh. I'd like to see them as a separate breed in the cb biome next year, rather than the official 2019 one. They still first appeared in 2009 after all.

 

I do support alts as a separate breed entirely if we have to go that route.

Edited by Jazeki

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1 hour ago, purplehaze said:

I am glad to see that this thread has taken a more reasonable turn. 

THIS absolutely purplehaze.... thank you to everyone for keeping it respectful and discussing the issue rationally.

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