BSA - Nurture Hatchlings

[olympe]

I have to disagree with your reasoning. While DC's continuing growth is very much fact, it's not a factor IMHO. Because DC isn't about getting everything in as short a time as possible, and never has been. So, really, we don't need even more egg slots. 

 

[MoonShark]

6 hours ago, ValidEmotions said:

After some searching and a bit of help, managed to find this thread...

 

I support the idea of a BSA for nurturing hatchlings to grow faster. I think using Time magic to do so would be more appealing as it'll easily avoid any questionable real-world practices. 

Dragon Cave has grown significantly over several years and it's still growing. We have a good couple hundred dragons, minimum. However, our scroll slots are not increasing to match the pace. At some point, there's going to be a pinch between the two. We're going to have to address that sooner or later, and doing it sooner (with a way to speed up hatchling growth, for example) would be the ideal.

I agree with this assessment. Far too often, I find myself "hatchie-locked" for a day, two days...sometimes even longer. This is, frankly, boring, and it's all due to the fact that eggs can hatch in two days, but hatchlings currently take at least three days to grow up. That bottleneck could be easily solved with a nurture BSA.

 

I like the idea of using Time magic, and I would like to suggest Nocturnes as the potential breed for it. Not only are they a Time Element dragon (of which we have surprisingly few), but they are relatively common in cave and in the AP, and so little is known about their behavior (as their description literally states), I could easily see them as being lore-worthy for such a BSA.

[Fuzzbucket]

11 hours ago, olympe said:

I have to disagree with your reasoning. While DC's continuing growth is very much fact, it's not a factor IMHO. Because DC isn't about getting everything in as short a time as possible, and never has been. So, really, we don't need even more egg slots. 

 

 

Right on !

[Sazandora]

As much as I'd love a hatchling "incubate" BSA, I've seen this suggestion pop up before and TJ has stated that if a BSA like this would ever be released, it would NOT stack with egg incubation; it'd be one or the other, which severely neuters the usefulness of this suggestion.

 

Personally, though, I could have use for a BSA like this as I'm a regular Siyat catcher, and we all know how you only incubate them if you want a green Siyat. And maybe it could be useful on eggs that are so low-time that incubate would be wasted on them. This could come in handy sometimes, but it wouldn't be nearly as essential as incubate itself.

[olympe]

46 minutes ago, Sazandora said:

Personally, though, I could have use for a BSA like this as I'm a regular Siyat catcher, and we all know how you only incubate them if you want a green Siyat. And maybe it could be useful on eggs that are so low-time that incubate would be wasted on them. This could come in handy sometimes, but it wouldn't be nearly as essential as incubate itself.

Especially around low-time (holiday) AP walls, when you're locked with 24 hatchies - most of which have around 1 day left to go before they're able to grow up...

Also useful for NDs, I think.

[MoonShark]

10 hours ago, Sazandora said:

As much as I'd love a hatchling "incubate" BSA, I've seen this suggestion pop up before and TJ has stated that if a BSA like this would ever be released, it would NOT stack with egg incubation; it'd be one or the other, which severely neuters the usefulness of this suggestion.

 

Personally, though, I could have use for a BSA like this as I'm a regular Siyat catcher, and we all know how you only incubate them if you want a green Siyat. And maybe it could be useful on eggs that are so low-time that incubate would be wasted on them. This could come in handy sometimes, but it wouldn't be nearly as essential as incubate itself.

How recently did he make that statement, though? We've had regular releases the past few years, and the numbers of dragons in-cave are steadily climbing. Which is awesome, but between scroll goals and many, many lineage projects, hatchie lock is a real and frustrating thing for a lot of players.

 

Until he responds to this topic with a Nay, I don't think we can assume that he would be against adding such a BSA now.

[Sazandora]

@MoonShark It wasn't all that long ago when he said it, a few months at most. It was in a different thread that suggested this same exact thing.

 

EDIT: Found it!

On 1/16/2019 at 7:14 AM, TJ09 said:

If a hatchling-targeted "incubate" BSA were to happen, it would 100% not be stackable with egg incubate.

 

Incubate, as-is, is really poorly designed. It's reasonably easy to get enough red dragons that you always have incubate available when you want it. What this means in practice is that, except for a few niche cases (like Siyats, which are relatively new, or needing to stretch the timer to the wire for e.g. a trade), there's never a reason to not use incubate. At that point, I might as well just remove incubate and start all eggs at six days instead of seven. It's not exactly equivalent, but it's pretty close.

 

If a hatchling "incubate" were able to be used on top of the egg one, the same concerns come into play: When would someone ever not use it? What does it add to the game that removing a day from all timers doesn't add? And, as I have a tendency to ask: what's the tradeoff?

 

If it only really exists to smooth out what few rough edges incubate has, it becomes a much more niche action. It also becomes much less useful, but it at least has a solid role that it fills; one that provides value without completely throwing off the balance of everything.

From this particular thread.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Sazandora

[Fiona]

I believe the biggest use a hatchling incubate would have is in the case of AP hunters adopting low time eggs, or for Siyats. That is kind of niche.

 

Of course, there are some breeds that seem to hatch sick less often if one does not use incubate on them. But again, that's kind of niche.

 

I personally would probably use a hatchling incubate instead of egg incubate just for the fun of it, but that's just me.

[Amur_Rama]

@Cinnamin Draconna  My, my, you're still here. *waves*  I doubt if you remember me though. 

 

 

----------------------

 

If the issue with this BSA with the timer. Perhaps a weakness could be introduced from a different direction to attack the problem in a different way. 

 

Dragons "Force-Fed" in some manner to reach mature weight/size/magic potential, could have difficulty breeding later on, not in refusals, but in not producing eggs.  

 

Option 1: Could add an extra week (or 2) to when the dragon can be bred, instead of it being able to breed the moment it becomes an adult, like dragons do now.

 

Option 2: Could have a lowered chance of producing eggs overall (maybe drop by <25%) for 2-3 months after maturing. 

 

 

That being said, Nurture is the wrong name for that kind of BSA.  Force-Feed might be better, just to underscore how unpleasant the process is for your hatchling.

 

 

 

Apply standard 2 week cooldown, maybe give it to Harvest Dragons, since food is their DEAL, what with hatchlings always being hungry.  If a Harvest adult takes care of a non-harvest hatchling it may make the "error" of thinking the baby isn't eating based on their own hatchling experiences of being hungry and push the issue trying to fatten it up. 

 

Hatchling:

"Aww... It's a cute baby dragon. It always seems to be hungry."

 

Adult: 

Normally shy, these omnivorous dragons keep to themselves in remote regions, but in the fall they descend from their high territory to search for food—and lots of it. During the autumn months, harvest dragons will eat whatever they can find, from large and small animals to nuts and fruit. In the winter they retreat into large caves and hibernate until spring, living off the fat they have built up."

 

[Fiona]

except Harvests only eat like that in the autumn...

 

and they hibernate during the winter

[Amur_Rama]

I don't see how that's an issue.

[Fuzzbucket]

Well, maybe because it wouldnt work most of the time, if you are relying on their feeding habits and because they'd be in hibernation a lot.?

[Shadowdrake]

Honestly the "action has consequences for months after the bsa is used" seems overly complicated and way too drastic an affect in a game where bsas are straightforward and affect only one factor per bsa, not to mention the "limit BSA even further bc this dragon only does said action sometimes" just seems like pigeonholing.

[Kila]

I think it'd be okay to have a Nurture type BSA not stack with Incubate. I'm sure there are users who don't incubate all their eggs, but still end up hatchling locked.

 

Even if it's only niche, I'm sure there are users who would benefit from it at some point or another, and isn't that what matters in the end?

 

As far as how it would work lore wise, I think it could easily be explained as an adult dragon taking extra care rearing the particular hatchling. Extra TLC in the form of food, enrichment, etc. It's already been pointed out that reptiles can be brought up to breeding weight with more food (though it's so bad for them), so I won't touch on that further.

 

However, since the world of dragoncave is steeped in magic, who's to say that extra TLC couldn't also include some extra magic boosts to help the hatchling mature faster?

[Lagie]

On 1/19/2018 at 12:26 PM, HeatherMarie said:

This was suggested a LOT when we still had the BSA sub-forum, and I remember one of the big issues being the logistics of how a dragon taking care of a hatchling would actually make it physically *grow* faster. I don't really know the exact explanation behind what Reds do, but it seems to be something to do with their heat affecting the development of the fetus inside the egg. How exactly would this work with hatchlings, though, in a logical way? Just giving an animal more food and teaching it things doesn't make it physically get older or grow into an adult faster.

 

I'm not saying I don't like this suggestion, just that that is the issue that always came up in the past threads.

Vitamins!

 

I'd love to have this as an option.

[olympe]

12 hours ago, Kila said:

I think it'd be okay to have a Nurture type BSA not stack with Incubate. I'm sure there are users who don't incubate all their eggs, but still end up hatchling locked.

 

Even if it's only niche, I'm sure there are users who would benefit from it at some point or another, and isn't that what matters in the end?

 

As far as how it would work lore wise, I think it could easily be explained as an adult dragon taking extra care rearing the particular hatchling. Extra TLC in the form of food, enrichment, etc. It's already been pointed out that reptiles can be brought up to breeding weight with more food (though it's so bad for them), so I won't touch on that further.

 

However, since the world of dragoncave is steeped in magic, who's to say that extra TLC couldn't also include some extra magic boosts to help the hatchling mature faster?

Kila, you're still around! *waves*

 

Also, regarding niche: We already have a number of niche BSAs. How many people actually use Earthquake? How many people use Splash more than the 100 times necessary for the badge? How many people use Trio Summon more than 3 times successfully?

 

Also, there's that thing about dragons staying in their egg longer (=not getting incubated) probably being a bit better developed than their incubated brethren - and thus might need less maturing time outside their egg. Which would make sense with the lore aspect of DC.

[Sazandora]

Or Expunge. I think I've only ever used it once, and that was many years ago when I had two zombies of the same body type and didn't think I'd need that many. Oh, and hiya, Kila. Sure didn't expect to see you show up here again.

 

As Olympe said, we do have a lot of "niche" BSAs already, and I haven't heard of anyone complaining about them being too niche, so I don't think it'd do us any harm to add another "niche" BSA into the pile. I would certainly have plenty of uses for a hatchling incubate (Siyat hoarder, remember...) so it would certainly not be a niche thing for me!

[MIGOR]

Superb idea ! Sometimes it is so hard to wait dragons to grow up !!! Which breed should have such BSA ability? hmmmm....

Edited October 14, 2019 by MIGOR

[olympe]

Frills have been in the discussion for a Nurture BSa from early on, and have conceptor's approval.

[sorenna]

On 1/21/2018 at 1:20 AM, DragonLady86 said:

I like logic, but just to play the other side: Dragcave is canonically not on Earth.  Who says OUR rules apply?  Maybe it is perfectly normal for such behavior on

Valkemare for one species to be able to influence the rate at which another grows.

 

I also only hit hatchling limits at holidays normally, but I would still like to see this added to the game in some way, shape, or form.

 

Yeah, I have to say... this.  ^  The lore can be fun, but the lore is a thin veneer over what's practical, not a hard limit.  I mean, no animal on earth just hangs out in an egg indefinitely while fully developed (because eggs are a strictly limited-resource environment: when the yolk is consumed, there's no more food for the baby and it has to hatch or starve) the way DC dragons are said to do.  Likewise, there are no reptiles, or any winged species, on earth that spontaneously develops a whole new set of limbs at puberty; unless Valkemare dragons are actually amphibians and hatchlings are tadpoles, growing wings weeks/months/years after birth isn't biologically reasonable.

 

These are light covers for things that make gameplay interesting (being able to force an egg/neglect an egg, making the maturation process visually indentifiable/revealing gender status), not a deep logically-built backstory.  If "because it's another world" is a good enough reason to make hatchlings sprout wings or eggs hold a baby in stasis, it's a good enough reason for other things that players would find helpful.

 

 

...All that said, I don't know that I have a preference between speeding up hatchling development via BSA versus increasing hatchling slots. 

 

Making hatchies hit adulthood faster might have to come with having their breeding ability blocked, the way holiday hatchies do (so they can't breed in the same holiday period they were born in).  Hopefully not for a year, like with holiday breeds, but maybe a month?  A week?  (If you need a lore reason, the quicker development saps strength from their reproductive systems.)  Overall, just raising hatchling limits might be easier. 

[Bloommist]

ROAR, I really like this idea, it would be nice to speed along some of the hatchlings, lore wise it could just be that the hatchlings get stronger and more confident sooner therefore mature and can go off on their own earlier  granted we would get an adult Sprite but I still think that could work and it isn't earth and has dragons so I think biologically wise were pretty safe on what we can say is possible

Regardless I think it's a fun and useful mechanic for the game and a good suggestion overall 

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

Sorry to revive this super old thread but I'm soooo tired of waiting for my Flow to grow up lol, and I'd love a chance to "incubate" it! Throwing in my support for this again because it's something I'd love to see.

[camelia2]

This BSA would be mega useful, no doubt on that and full support.

 

As for the logic behind 'Nurture' - simple! Eagles!

Whenever I watch eagle/owl documentaries the story is usually the same, 1 chick is getting not-so-much food and ends up looking way younger than it is (and in bad years gets eaten by the stronger siblings)

The photo on hand ilustrates a little diffrence, but important. We can see 2 adult-looking juveniles with flying plumage and the smaller chick on the left that still retains a lot of baby fluff and has only feather buds on most of it's body. (There are much more drastical examples out there, but this one was handy)

Access to food has an imense impact on how fast birds (closely related to reptilians) grow.

We can also see in DC world that a hatchi getting more views will grow to s2 faster so this mechanic is totally logical

[soullessheartofsteel]

ROAR. We have real-life precedent for the lore, we don't mind it being niche and not stacking, plenty of people want it, and it wouldn't break the game. I really don't see why not.

[LadyLoki]

I didn't realize there was a suggestion for this kind of BSA. 😱 This would be an amazing addition to the BSAs! I can't tell you how many times I could use this BSA because I was (or very nearly) scroll locked, not just during the holidays! I wouldn't care if it didn't stack with Incubate, since I myself don't always use Incubate on eggs! As I get a lot of low time eggs from the AP, or even trades. So it would greatly benefit players like myself, and not just during the holidays.

This would honestly be a tremendously awesome addition to BSAs, IMHO. Total support!