Reinstate Honorable Mentions

[Yubelchen]

Yeah its 17+

Still a low very number

[VixenDra]

6 minutes ago, Jazeki said:

Then it's not confirmed. The wiki is not official. Only TJ would know for sure. 

 

I remember checking those codes in-game, they worked. If it could be seen in the game itself it IS confirmed, TJ is known for not making official statements on most of things so I wouldn't rely on "he didn't confirm it so it's not a thing", especially such a solid proof as these CB female Hollies exists in-game.

Edited January 10, 2018 by VixenDra

[Jazeki]

3 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

 

I remember checking those codes in-game, they worked. If it could be seen in the game itself it IS confirmed, TJ is known for not making official statements on most of things.

If it says "at least," the true number of females is unknown. Not that those whose codes are confirmed don't exist.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Jazeki

[VixenDra]

10 minutes ago, Jazeki said:

If it says "at least," the true number of females is unknown.

 

True, but the MINIMAL is:P

Still, since the total of HMs ever given is known, we also know about at least a few CB hybrids/bred-alts and Frills (and that not all HMs were claimed at all, right? or no? not sure here), we can also determine the absolute maximum than can possibly exist (and keep in mind it's likely not how much there actually probably are, but 17 is is a confirmed minimum).

 

BTW 17 confirmed Hollies out of 70 HMs, and only 3(?) confirmed Alt Blacks, 1(?) Hellhorse, and, as far as I recall, very low numbers of CB Hybrids ever distributed in general, looks like quite a comparably high demand there was (and probably still is, as we coudl see in the trade requests out there! and note those were made only by those who didn't realise they can't possibly get one) for CB female Hollies.

Edited January 10, 2018 by VixenDra

[Yubelchen]

Still, the fact that ONLY 17 are known makes you think that the acual number cant be much higher.

So my guess is that there are 20 or 30 female Hollys released, its a solid number and i bet those who acually know the wiki and care about making it up to date would have added the codes of the other dragons there.

Or the owners themself did it if they wanted.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Yubelchen

[Ruby Eyes]

22 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

1(?) Hellhorse

1 Hellhorse and 1 Soulpeace (owned by an inactive player), to my knowledge.

[JavaTigress]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

Well, with any "special" dragons out of the way, HM prizes will almost all turn out to be CB golds. Like 90+%. Which will affect the ratios unfavorably. So I'm still against a reinstatement.

May I point out that TJ most PROBABLY has ways of taking such things into account?

 

As someone said, maybe for some reason the ones given out as prizes don't count OR.... I dunno, I am not TJ.

I would think IF he wants to do this, (AND , as I see it, that is the VERY big IF, here) he could without it breaking the ratios.

 

I would add ditto on eggs given out from a store if THAT were implemented.

Edited January 10, 2018 by JavaTigress

[VixenDra]

With the Store, HMs could get some of the currency? (either as a choice option if they don't want to take any HM available dragon, or in general)

[LibbyLishly]

1 hour ago, JavaTigress said:

May I point out that TJ most PROBABLY has ways of taking such things into account?

 

As someone said, maybe for some reason the ones given out as prizes don't count OR.... I dunno, I am not TJ.

I would think IF he wants to do this, (AND , as I see it, VERY big IF, there) he could without it breaking the ratios.

 

I would add ditto on eggs given out from a store if it were implemented.

Yeah, this.

Edited January 10, 2018 by LibbyLishly
Took out unnecessarily inflammatory language.

[Ruby Eyes]

Maybe we start "freaking out" because of bad experiences from the past.

Thank you for not being dismissive about other people's worries.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Ruby Eyes

[JavaTigress]

8 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Maybe we start "freaking out" because of bad experiences from the past.

Fair enough point.

 

I would THINK,tho, that TJ learns from the mistakes he has made on site in the past. At least.... I hope that he does.

 

AND that IF it were to be implemented something WOULD be done to take the ratios into account with it so that there wouldn't be a problem. Again, at least I hope so.

 

ETA-No worries there Ruby Eyes. I have been a bit inactive of late ( Trying to get a bit more active here again....) but for a while I stalked the forums regularly... I have seen all sorts of things. I KNOW that decisions have been made in the past that PLENTY of people weren't happy about so.... I do understand.

Edited January 10, 2018 by JavaTigress

[LibbyLishly]

27 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Maybe we start "freaking out" because of bad experiences from the past.

Thank you for not being dismissive about other people's worries.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound dismissive. Remember that I've been around for quite a while too, though, albeit with a recent break. I've seen many the same things you've seen, give or take a couple of years. I just don't like seeing suggestions getting shot down on the basis of some mechanics that we actually know very little about. I've seen this happen too often in the past and I don't want that to become the big thing in the Suggestions forum all over again.

 

ETA: I wouldn't be so frustrated if people expressed their concern by saying things like "I'm fine with x suggestion so long as TJ adjusts the ratios so that this won't have a negative impact" instead of things like "I don't support this because ratios". 

Edited January 10, 2018 by LibbyLishly

[olympe]

Well, forgive me for freaking out. I've been here for the metal draught, which lasted for 2 or 2.5 years, something along that time. Metals (silvers and golds) were incredibly hard to breed, and almost extinct in the cave the whole freaking time. Because, according to TJ, there used to be a mistake with the ratios, and then, the ratios were just evening out. In other words: Because something had gone wrong with the ratios in the past, we had a negative impact lasting for more than 2 years before metals became less rare (=almost extinct). It was Awful (with a capital A, yes).

 

If HM prizes were introduced the way they are suggested right now (without any changes to ratios or whatever), most players would choose a CB gold as their prize.

With the store, on the other hand, pricing should make sure to make buying other breeds desirable enough to even out things somewhat.

 

All that being said, I'm not here to suggest changes X, Y and Z to an existing system to make the actual suggestion of this thread work, I'm discussing why I do or don't like a suggestion. And ratios are a chore mechanism of DC - and thus unlikely to get an overhaul, which I think is badly needed in the first place.

[LibbyLishly]

Just now, olympe said:

Well, forgive me for freaking out. I've been here for the metal draught, which lasted for 2 or 2.5 years, something along that time. Metals (silvers and golds) were incredibly hard to breed, and almost extinct in the cave the whole freaking time. Because, according to TJ, there used to be a mistake with the ratios, and then, the ratios were just evening out. In other words: Because something had gone wrong with the ratios in the past, we had a negative impact lasting for more than 2 years before metals became less rare (=almost extinct). It was Awful (with a capital A, yes).

 

If HM prizes were introduced the way they are suggested right now (without any changes to ratios or whatever), most players would choose a CB gold as their prize.

With the store, on the other hand, pricing should make sure to make buying other breeds desirable enough to even out things somewhat.

 

All that being said, I'm not here to suggest changes X, Y and Z to an existing system to make the actual suggestion of this thread work, I'm discussing why I do or don't like a suggestion. And ratios are a chore mechanism of DC - and thus unlikely to get an overhaul, which I think is badly needed in the first place.

 

All right, I really do sincerely apologize for using the term "freaking out". It was a much more disrespectful choice of words than was necessary and it was said out of a knee-jerk reaction to what felt like a repeat of the Suggestions forum culture of 2014, which was frustrating and exhausting. I know the ratios haven't always been optimal; the reason I don't do metal lines is because there was a long period of time when I just could not get metals from my Golds and Silvers. I'm only just recently realizing that I can get my metals to breed true again (and yay, gifting time!). And I certainly agree that the ratios, however it is that they work, could use an overhaul and have needed it for a long time. However, I don't think the ratios are a good enough reason for players to reject a suggestion (any suggestion) if there's a possibility that they can be altered to accommodate said suggestion. I recognize that opinions differ on this but that is where I'm coming from.

[JavaTigress]

8 minutes ago, LibbyLishly said:

 

All right, I really do sincerely apologize for using the term "freaking out". It was a much more disrespectful choice of words than was necessary and it was said out of a knee-jerk reaction to what felt like a repeat of the Suggestions forum culture of 2014, which was frustrating and exhausting. I know the ratios haven't always been optimal; the reason I don't do metal lines is because there was a long period of time when I just could not get metals from my Golds and Silvers. I'm only just recently realizing that I can get my metals to breed true again (and yay, gifting time!). And I certainly agree that the ratios, however it is that they work, could use an overhaul and have needed it for a long time. However, I don't think the ratios are a good enough reason for players to reject a suggestion (any suggestion) if there's a possibility that they can be altered to accommodate said suggestion. I recognize that opinions differ on this but that is where I'm coming from.

I EVEN wonder if back then that metal drought Olympe mentioned was in everyone's minds when they WERE so concerned with ratios.

 

That said,again... I would hope that TJ has learned from the incident in question and would take steps to avoid a repeat.... assuming that he didn't nix the idea entirely because of problems involved with it we can only speculate about ( like ratios!) Admittedly i can definitely understand how having the ratios messed up so that metals never breed would get old REALLY fast.

Edited January 10, 2018 by JavaTigress

[VixenDra]

TJ had found a way to make the chrismas holiday biome miraculusly move (despite it should have been stuck with Snows and Aegis at some point if it wasn't tweaked to spawn less of the recent ones, ofc it had its flaws, like not enough eggs generated(as if just to force the cave to get emptied despite the freakin' limit), but still, sth ratios-related got changed to make it), I bet he can possibly do sth against another drought. Though I so have doubts, idk why but Coast Baikalas are no longer to be seen while they were pretty common UNTIL the Halloween zombie fodding begun (and is still a thing), I also can't get a magenta egg from my PB magenta Spinel pair they went of a green spree and are stuck in it so far... Sth is very wrong about the ratios in general, not to mention new breed X old breed always producing newer breed others experience...

But yeah, CB Golds as HM rewards should push TJ to do sth to prevent the Cave drought, I know he is able to(as proven with that holiday biome), the question is if he would do it, no matter how much it's needed even without HMs(but with HMs it will be needed even more).

[Kirono]

I'm just saying that even though TJ went back and fixed stuff (re: the xmas holiday biome) does not mean that he "took it into account" before initially releasing the biome  I'm just saying he's no infallible and is learning a lot about the playerbase~

 

I'm sure he wasn't like "hmmmm how can I screw with the trading economy for 5+ years" when he created the very first prize dragons.

 

To stay on the topic at hand. I'd love for CB hybrids to be more of a thing, although with as rare as they are they aren't even a thing I'd like to collect. (Much like the few prize dragon x prize dragon lines that are out there). And I'm pretty sad to hear that custom codes won't make a comeback (I had some in mind because I didn't realize the raffle didn't allow you to choose -- someone should send a screenshot of their "winning raffle" page to the wiki) even though it's not as if I don't understand that they'd take too long to be feasible.

[Guillotine]

Yeah, I wasn't expecting custom codes to make a comeback, as much as I'd love it (let's be real, the likelihood of getting a dragon with the codes i want is basically nonexistent otherwise), but I did and do honestly think that making allowances for CB hybrids in some manner would be a good thing. And it seems like it would be easier to program an automagical egg generator than it would be to check for something the site is constantly generating (I... don't think names are chosen in quite the volume that codes are made).

 

Like, I'd prefer the store or some other way of making them hard to obtain but not 100% random, but I'll tolerate it if raffles are where they live now.
 

[olympe]

Of course, TJ could work HM prizes around ratios, I don't question that. What I question, though, is whether we really need HM prizes. It's not like we wouldn't be able to get any of the things available for HM in the cave, anyway. Which is why I'm not a fan of reintroducing (non-breed-only) HMs. *shrugs* Then again, I could see people try to get a GoN if they have bad luck summoning, or whatever they could come up with.

[Fuzzbucket]

4 hours ago, JavaTigress said:

I EVEN wonder if back then that metal drought Olympe mentioned was in everyone's minds when they WERE so concerned with ratios.

 

 

It was certainly in mine. It was AWFUL.

 

1 hour ago, olympe said:

Of course, TJ could work HM prizes around ratios, I don't question that. What I question, though, is whether we really need HM prizes. It's not like we wouldn't be able to get any of the things available for HM in the cave, anyway. Which is why I'm not a fan of reintroducing (non-breed-only) HMs. *shrugs* Then again, I could see people try to get a GoN if they have bad luck summoning, or whatever they could come up with.

 

I am increasingly coming round to the idea that no, we don't, actually. Now that there has at least been an opportunity to get past CB holidays, we can indeed get everything but prizes in cave. And prizes are not HMs so.... (And I can't join in the demands for CB female hollies - nor male CB mistletoes, come to that.)

 

The store would deal so well with all this,.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@VixenDra CAN spinel x spinel produce reds? I remember when they came out people were testing it but they all went green I believe. Have you seen reds? There’s a few spinel x earth element pairings I’d love to get reds from if it’s at all possible...

 

AHEM, anyway. Now that hybrids and alts are a no go I’m back to “just do the store.” Earning versus raffling, and no real worries about the ratio because the time costs needed to get anything rare would keep them rare.

[Kith]

Originally all spinel x spinel pairings were only producing reds, but if I recall correctly TJ said he'd implement the ability to produce greens so long as they didn't exclusively do so...

 

So I'm not certain whether it's just a ratio thing, or whether the PB reds are mainly being produced by non-forum members.

[Fuzzbucket]

5 hours ago, Kith said:

Originally all spinel x spinel pairings were only producing reds, but if I recall correctly TJ said he'd implement the ability to produce greens so long as they didn't exclusively do so...

 

So I'm not certain whether it's just a ratio thing, or whether the PB reds are mainly being produced by non-forum members.

 

He fixed it.

 

https://dragcave.net/lineage/hg49w

 

I HOPE green by green can still produce red

[JavaTigress]

15 hours ago, fuzzbucket said:

 

It was certainly in mine. It was AWFUL.

 

 

I am increasingly coming round to the idea that no, we don't, actually. Now that there has at least been an opportunity to get past CB holidays, we can indeed get everything but prizes in cave. And prizes are not HMs so.... (And I can't join in the demands for CB female hollies - nor male CB mistletoes, come to that.)

 

The store would deal so well with all this,.

AND don't get me wrong.... I am not necessarily opposed to the store either.

Especially IF TJ has said that CB hybrids and choosing your own codes are things he doesn't choose to do anymore.

( Much as I'd LOVE to get to pick a custom code if I won something in raffle or bought it in store.... I can SEE why that might be more work than he wants to take on.I can also understand it IF he has decided that if CB hybrids became more of a thing they might become more of a problem.)

Edited January 11, 2018 by JavaTigress

[Ruby Eyes]

He's "not a fan" of giving out more CB hybrids/alts, which sounds to me that all that's needed was a good reason to convince him otherwise (There's unreasonable hope speaking, here.)

He stated that custom codes are not "going to make a comeback" which sadly sounds pretty solid to me though

 

As far as I can tell, his main reason was the time factor though, and he hasn't yet responded to the automation ideas ...

Edited January 11, 2018 by Ruby Eyes